Soviet war monuments in Poland - what to do about them?

I am not the one who would denied sovereignity of any country (Slavic, or not Slavic) and I agree with your comment.

Just, it`s the NATO (and, Germany) who invented double standards in case with sovereignity. Now, we live in world of dissorder. International order was violeted and now all seem possible.

You see daffy. I can understand your position and your angle but, that won`t change fact that NATO is in the game and that NATO practicly already encircled Russia. They did it to `protect` their interests. Now, expect retaliation. And, again Slavs would be first affected.

Not for everyone money is the most important, besides Estonia is doing very well economically and they definately won't starv even If Russia blocks all of their export and stop deliveres of oil and gas.


What isn't nessesery ? If we were them, we would blow up that crap at the first opportunity, for me the only weired thing is that they still had kept that for 16 years. Probably they were affraid that Russia would invade them when they haven't been in NATO yet.


It's not NATO pushing anyone, It's Russia's neighbours pushing NATO to accept them as members, because they have enough of being pushed by Russia.


No in the past, we have problems with them all the time. Let's forget about the Soviet Union and take a look at Russia. First we had to ask them to withdraw their military bases from our country and It took them rather long time to do that. When our government said that MAYBE in the future we will join NATO they threatened to nuke us, they were pushing our companies out of their market, so untill recently one of few things we still sold there was meat, but they banned even that, said that It is stinking. They are making problems with oil and gas, so we have to spend money to build the piprline from Norway and import by ships from the Persian Gulf. Their (state controlled) media insult us all the time. We only "dare" to fight back sometimes, that's all.

And I wouldn't be so sure that they are so Slavic. They are rather a Mongolian-Scandinavian mix. BTW The only one big country in Europe Russia has had really good relations with in last years is... Germany. You may love them when you are far away, If you were in Central Europe instead of Balkans, I'm sure you would change your mind.

My God, Slavs are so deeply divided that only miracle can unite us.

Lone

...don`t say nothing. I would tell to myself: `Calm down`.

actually it is Germany that's all hugs & kisses with Russia nowadays.
Ok, maybe Merkel is a bit different.

Crow, did you know it was Russia who supported Baltic German rule over Estonians. Estonians had hopes that Russia would put end to the German rule, that originated from Northern Crusades, but it didn't happen.

back to topic: the new place for statue is even actually even better: it has no grey wall back, so you can see from all sides of it.It wasn't humiliated in any way. The new plaque on it says: "to the unknown soldier",both in Estonian and Russian. How is that humiliating ?

Woa... that makes them well balanced

he, he

E, ovo mi je ulepšalo dan.

Translation on my Slavicized English... `Eh, this made my day.`

exactly - the EU and NATO would supply Estonia in other means - united we stand, divided we fall - mistakes made in the past seem to have been learnt in this regards.


I agree big time! NATO was formed by the very fact that the Russians were pushing there weight around the central and european countries - thats WHY NATO exists in the first place Russian aggression. Which is no longer an issue save these last few years again with POLITCS in russia trying to deflect attention away from Chechnya and MANY other internal failings (like the US is in Iraq in a small way - imposing its power)


Putin is a politician, a postering politician. he plays a hard game but is not a moron.
Russian's are not stupid people and many see the postering of putin for what it is, politics, to deflect from the many BAD things in Russia, i recall you to the demonstrations only a few weeks ago, the opposition held peaceful protests and were broken up by the police and arressted (including Gary Kasporov the chess master).


well as far as the thread title suggests then, you, grz and I agree - Poland/Estonia can do what they desire with the Soviet monuments and any disscussion about Russia, Nato, Slavia we can go to the Slavic thread....(seeing as we've all just agreed that PL/ES CAN do what they wish with them, and rightly so)

If there is no problem actualy, politician from all sides should relax things.

It would be quite idiotic that all things go out of control because of position of monument (as, if?), with all due respect.


daffy

We very well know that this all didn`t happened because of monument. No matter on bad Russian image from past, I would stay on position that NATO pushing them too hard.

This comment is my concluion on this.

NATO has NOTHING to do with the Estonians or Polish WANTING to remove a reminder of being oppressed by the Soviets.

even IF they were'nt in NATO they wanted them gone BUT they would be suffer at pressure of the Russia Gov't for such a move - as is happening DESPITE the fact they are in the EU and NATO and it was up to the EU to try and help smooth the situation - NATO didnt get involved at all - your the only one who brought NATO into it!

No need to say more... I don’t like Putin`s methods

He is great disappointment, on many fields- from democratic principles, to Slavic solidarity, etc

I hope that next Russian president could offer more to Russia and to Slavic world, to this Earth on the end.

on that we agree - his reaction to Poland and Estonia demonstrating there democratic right was disgusting and very political (to deflect attention away from problems in russia)

But look how they hurry to warns Russia. They know what are their `obligations`, instead to relax situation. Lives of Slavs and all people in the region are in game. My congrats to Slovakia once more for their attitude.

NATO warns Russia

newsalerts.com/news/article/nato-warns-russia-on-estonia-row.html:worl %20d19:932257

daffy

It scares me how many idiotic persons lead politics on world scene.

For such a great nation...has such wonderful creative, resilient people with a phenomenal history, plus some hugely important individuals......

It lets itself down on so many fronts its painful, as if both they and the USA have never learnt anything......

The only people who suffer are the ordinary, common guy( aka as cannon fodder)...trying to scrape a living.

Will the world ever get leaders they are worthy of or are we condemned for an eternity to power hungry miscreants holding the reins of power......?

Or am I just being naive................again?

eh, sounds fair if you ask me - why do you defend the entity that threatened estonia? nato, the us and the EU have responded by saying 'stop'.


So it is Russia and not Nato, the us OR the eu doing anything but saying stop but Russia is doing these things that make it worse.


Again, sounds like they are looking after the DEMOCRATIC estonian decisions from a 'big bully'

Don’t remind me on that... its, it’s disgusting

...and, it isn`t only nowadays. They did it many times in past

God help Russians that Russia finaly become democratic state.


Amen, Amen, Amen


Poles resisted to Nazis and they can do whatever they want. I like Poles, and that`s plus reason why Poles can do whatever they want if by me and, I expect that Russians even help them to remove any problematic monument from Poland and even to ask them is there anything else what they can correct and, even to build some monument to Poles which died because of Russia`s mistakes and on the end of all process to apologise to Poles for desturbing them...

OK, we speak about Soviet period. Soviets (communists) were even anti-Russians. But, anyway, that what I said can be applied on time before Soviet era.

yet thats not what is happened in Estonia - proof that russia would not.


and other examples besides of Russian embargo's against Polish products so what you say is nice but is not what Russia has done.


I would love that too but they have not and by the way they are acting to Poland and Estonia for exercising their democratic free will - doesnt look to likely unfortunately


If the 'soviets' are the only ones objecting to the removal of the monuments id agree but it is not. it is modern day Russia

I couldn't agree with you more. Well put.

I know.

It is because Russia is still ruled by traitors of Slavic kind who even cooperate with Slavic foes and behind the scene all of us could be sold, just like in the time of slavery.

But, things would be changed. Slavdom will be awaken!

Slavic OTPOR live!

Crow you create things that do not exist.

It existed and exist in heads of members of one wing of original Serbian OTPOR in time of Milosevic`s dictature and pressure from false West on Serbian people. OTPOR needed to deal with two evil in the same time. Idea still live and there are rumors.

Members of that wing were sure that same danger for democratic evolution of Serbian society represent: left oriented Slobodan Milosevic, selfishness and trechery of Russian elite, German imperialism and USA hegemonism.

Analizing situation in complete Slavic world and around, members of that wing decided that soon will come the day for formation of Slavic OTPOR, exactly on principle- United we stand, divided we fall.

Crow again I disagree with you - the people of Poland and Estonia for eg did not form a slavic Union which they could have done and many other central & eastern european countries. They chose to join a European Union (United we stand, divided we fall but MUCH bigger than any slavic union on its own could ever be)

Its better this way. The EU and NATO stands with Poland and Estonia in it DEMOCRATIC choices against those that would BULLY them, in this case Russia

Nor EU, nor NATO didn`t offer correcet respont on chalanges of modern era and, on problems which are essential for Slavic coutries.

There are rumors which said that Slavs are considered as sub-people from most of Germans, from most of Western Europeans and Americans and that Slavs are humiliated. Things in Russia should be changed, in all Slavic coutries, too.

Slavic OTPOR is inevitable.

NATO, EU and US told the Russians to stop intimidating Estonia.

Russia cut of oil and gas supplies to Estonia, Banned Polish Products

Im sorry Crow - whos response is the inappropriate in the modern era???


Opinion, subjective, emotive - no basis in fact, reason or logic


See above - why dont you try see what milliions already do - that the EU is a source of strength for all peoples on this continent and stands up to russian bullies and any bullies besides.

Russia need to be changed. That is priority on the list of Slavic Otpor.


Unfortunately, those are very well known facts.

Things will be changed.


EU support spread of Islam on Balkan, EU colaborate with Al Qaeda on Balkan, EU colaborate with mujaheedines on Balkan, EU supoported creation of Greater Croatia, EU supporting creation of Greater Albania, ...and imagine selfish Russian elite even helped them in some moments and on the other side, Pan-Slavic wing of Russian elite opposed to this situation in some other moments.

Problem is that you never can`t be sure who prevail in Russia in some moment and that way you can`t count on Russians. For that, things should be changed inside of Russia so that Pan-Slavic/pro-Russian democratic elite take control over Russia for good.

I see things different then you daffy, from obvious reasons. My expiriance is different.

To be honest i really don't care about this monuments. Some of them are acutally cool. But when i am seeing reactions of russian side on events in estonia...they are really awful. This is Estonia not Russia, and it would be cool to destroy some of that soviet monumets in Poland just to show solidarity with Estonia.

The Russian youth group NASHI is protesting in Estonia on behalf of Putin. This group of 20 somethings has been accused of being paid protestors. It seems strange to me that a bunch of university age kids wouldn't rather be with friends, (or playing sports or something) rather than demonstrating whenever someone goes against Putin.

Bizzarre and creepy....

"The Russian youth group NASHI is protesting in Estonia on behalf of Putin. This group of 20 somethings has been accused of being paid protestors. It seems strange to me that a bunch of university age kids wouldn't rather be with friends, (or playing sports or something) rather than demonstrating whenever someone goes against Putin.

Bizzarre and creepy...."

Yeah you r tottaly right bout that. Of course it is important to remember about history of your nation, but this kind of fanatizm is really bad.

Crow its all very complex for those of us not of E European origin to get a real picture of what has happened......not sure how true all of the above is....supporting is the wrong word at times...perhaps has facilitated/allowed certain things to happen.......ie inadvertently....through stupidity/EU laws of equality etc.....

As for Putin and Chechnya...........a whole other story........S Times quoted 10000 children fatalites during that war......

Russian make a big problem about removing monuments of soviet soldiers in Tallin.First of all Estonia as well as many more of the countries including Poland wasn`t freed by the Red Army.It was just another bloody occupant .Nazizm killed 30 milion people but comunism killed 100 milion people all over the world.and is still doing it (China,North Korea etc.) Do you think that when Red Army came to Poland in 1939 and 1944 and started to kill polish patriots,killing polish officers in Katyn ,sending poles to die in Syberia or Kazachstan.raping polish women,burning polish cities and taking equipment from polish factories sounds like bringing freedom to Poland by a friendly country?Should we keep the monuments that memorize russian occupation , war crimes and economical degradation we suffered from russian occupants? Why Russians are so obsesed because of removal of that monument in Tallin?Because head of the Russian state is a KGB officer whose father took part in Warsaw Insurrection in August 1944.He was helping German army to kill Poles .I saw the pictures of his father takien in Warsaw during that time.There was an article about it in polish weekly magazine Angora few years ago.Beside as a KGB man Putin has such a mentality like Hitler or Stalin and russian government by defending those monuments is showing that they do agree with russian politics of Stalin.That means thay do still think it was ok. to occupy another country and war crimes should be memorized by monuments so those other nations should remember ther true nature of Putin and russians present government? Few years ago Russia made a new national holiday memorizing removing polish army in 1600`s from Kremlin.Recently I read an article about that and polish army was removing its soldiers from kremlin.When main forces of the polish army left russian murdered only the officers that as planned to be leaving the next day. This holliday isn`t the friendly act towards Poland but nobody reacted the way that russians reacted in Estonia.The recent politics in recent times should be a warning for everybody.The russian government is anpredictable and did give us many sign that it has aggressive nature.They commit war crimes in Chechenya.Who might be the next?

I already said that I don`t support Putin`s methods but, if we want to be honest methods of EU aren`t batter. Fundaments of EU are in ancient Greace and Rome and fundaments of those societies were in slavery of Slavs.

Or, take USA for example. Fundaments of USA are in genocide of whole one race, that is in genocide of native American Indians who are even today considered as sub-people.

I am against double standards. Let`s speak honestly and let we make this world batter.