But what I want to underline : relationships betwen Polish and Russian people are much different story than relationships beetwen our governments.
Ooops, again!!! Why are you trying to separate russian as a nation from russian government? As I know, about 75% of Russians support Putin and his government! Or this figures are false?
I dont know if they are false or not. I just noticed that russians rather likes Poles, maybe I have met those who have seen something in Europe, and knows why Poland have chosen the other way, and that all the things your television is showing in russia is one big S**T.
I find them very friendly ...
What is more, russian society in Germany were suporting Poland team in World Cup not German (in match PLvs Ger) so it shows that love beetwen Russian and German government is something much different than friendship beetwen people ...
What is more, If your government is so strongly supported by citizens, so why it is so scary about free media, free elections ??? Why your governent kills jurnalists ??? In Poland we havent any accident of killing in unknown circumates any jurnalists since 89 ... In russia there were about 50 ...
All I think about Russians is that they are realy ok, but they dont know the feeling when you have democracy and you can change your goverment.
People will never understand your idea that "Russia suffered the communist regime as well".
Polish people will never understand why Russians parked themselves outside town. And sat by while they were slaughtered. Then Improssoned by there liberators Nor why they Ruled them with an iron fist for years after.
Just a thought.. There is a lot of history involved.
Iv'e been to Russia. And i loved every moment of it. And the people were Incredible..
I dont know if they are false or not. I just noticed that russians rather likes Poles, maybe I have met those who have seen something in Europe, and knows why Poland have chosen the other way, and that all the things your television is showing in russia is one big S**T.
Well I have a good opportunity to trevel through europe too. Moreover, opposite to the most of europeans I know both Russian and English, hence I can read most of europeans newspapers and compare them with Russians. Therefore, my view on the Russian problems more rich and complex, a priori. Sorry! Do you speak or understand russian? I think no! So I think that you haven't correct information about russian TV, only rumours!
What is more, If your government is so strongly supported by citizens, so why it is so scary about free media, free elections ??? Why your governent kills jurnalists ??? In Poland we havent any accident of killing in unknown circumates any jurnalists since 89 ... In russia there were about 50 ...
Opyat' dvadtsat'pyat' !!!! Why you think that our government kills journalists? Dose somebody prove this fact? But I think that this incidents just symptoms of the dying previous oligarchical regime. Some of this "democratic" jornalists and politics had dubious relations with some of our odious oligarchs such as Berezovsky...
All I think about Russians is that they are realy ok, but they dont know the feeling when you have democracy and you can change your goverment.
We no need to change our government, we just need only improvement of it.
In Poland we havent any accident of killing in unknown circumates any jurnalists since 89 ... In russia there were about 50 ...
I dont think that it would be correct to compare Poland and Russia! Believe me, Russia is more coplex state, here we have very many impacting interests, much more than in Poland or even US.
First of all i speak russian on bassic level, but we have in Poland neewspapers where you can read current articles from all over the world translated in to Polish. And there are a lot of russian articles ... tygodnikforum.pl
What is more, do you remember Politkowska ?
I understand that you are true supporter of your authorytary government , but dont try to let me think that it is democratic, or that in Russia you have free media ....
Could you answer me, why you (ConstatnineK) dont belive in deomcracy in your country. Do you think you are not to good for it (I dont think so)
Maybe Putin is much better leader than durnken Jelcyn ... but do you realy think that Russia has the law to have influence on Ukraina ? Poland ? Baltic states ? Georgia?
You know we like your people, but politicaly we want you to F**K of , you have your country so take care about your siberia, Moskwa, St Petersburg. I dont konw why do you think (ConstatntinK) that your government has the law to have special position or something like that.
I strongly belive that, when the Russian people will have to choice their government in free election, with free media ect. They woudnt support government trying to make form country with 140 mln people (70 mln native russians) empire ... You can be only improtant european or asian coutry (it is your choce europe/asia)
When i talk to Russians they are very often jealous, because we can change our government in election.
;-)))) Oh !!! Sure !!! Undoubtedly !!! Poles are more skilled in this matter !!! History shows us that this is favourite polish amusement !!! But please, let us not to follow your patterns, pleeeez..........................
maybe jelous is bad world, but I have noticed that Russians would prefer to have political, economical, social situation which is in Poland than in Russia. I m not talking about oligarchs but about normal people.
And the other think is that your "free" media is tallking all the time : " Poland isnt Russia ble ble ble ... Democracy like in the west isnt for us russians ble ble ble ... We have our patterns ... our Putin is great ble ble ble ... Russia is respected again ble ble ble "
- Actually, Polish people 'understand' better and fuller than you seem to be able to imagine, mate.
They know first-hand who the lovely Russkies are really like.
I wonder if YOU can ever understand THAT?
And can you understand where your own Russophilia comes from?
In this respect, I recommend to you works by the brilliant Brit historian Norman Davies, for example the recent 'Europe at War.' Pan Books. London 2007.
I wish those who have eyes could read, and those who have ears could hear. :)
I'm no specialist on Russian or Polish politics but surely both countries would like to be in the same economical, political and social situation, say of the UK. what i'm saying is, there is always something better in the world than what you have.
Every country is in its particular situation due to actions in the past. Russia is in its situation because of Russia, same for Poland or any other nation in the world, unless of course you have been invaded, i.e. Iraq, DR Congo etc etc
You really have no idea of Polands history do you ?
well deeerrrrr of course i have an idea its hard not too, we all went to school didn't we, we've all read books haven't we. we all know what Russia did to Poland but in the same way with Germany isn't it about time we put all this stuff behind us, yes remember it fine, all those people who were killed or pillaged throughout the course of time.
However we have to stop pointing the finger at some point, don't we???
re: History shows us that this is favourite polish amusement !!! But please, let us not to follow your patterns, pleeeez..........................
- Perhaps the 'history' as taught in your KGB-land shows you that?
According to this 'history,' among others, you've been the victims of the Poles, right...? :)
So according to you, Konstaninok, the Russki history, with the tyrants-psychopaths, such as Ivashka the Terrible (mass serial killer), Piet'ka 'the Great' (mass killer, sex pervert), Kat'ka 'the Great' (monstrou sex pervert), Pavka (necrophile), Lenin (mass killer), Stalin (mass killer), Brezhnev (mass killer), and the present KGB descendant of those has been superior to Polish history?
:)
re: we all know what Russia did to Poland but in the same way with Germany isn't it about time we put all this stuff behind us
- Alas, evidence, also in this forum, shows that both the Russkies and Krauts understand by the 'putting behind' their turning it all around - depicting themselves as innocent lambs, victims of the Poles (and, in case of Krauts, victims of 'the English' and Americans). They are frmly believe they are too great and important nations to be 'tainted' with the notion of any wrongdoing, especially a wrongdoing to such contemptible weaklings as the Poles.
And what can you do with that, mate? :)
re: we have to stop pointing the finger at some point, don't we???
- Are you implyng the Poles unreasonably and irrationally 'point the finger' at the Russkies and Krauts?
Well isn't that the Germans attitude to every other nation!!! We just have to ignore them and let them get on with their imperialist thoughts :) While the rest of the world gets on with making an effort to get along
Ehhh but forexaple I m not talking about history, but current problems ... And i dont call Russians Russkies or Germans Krauts, because there are different Poles and different Russians and Germans.
But what i think about Russians is that they are victimims of their own regime, they havent any opportunity to choose their government. And their rather poor people maniupalted all the time ...
You konw there are some regimes in africa too, who kills their own people and invides otherr coutries to avoid disscusion about problems of their own coutry.
Russian government is in that wery simillar, they point at bad western coutries, or nationalistic baltic states to avoid disscusion about corution, economy, law ...
Thats why we have problems with them, because who have meet russians personaly and talk to them, drink vodka with them ;) you know like normal people ... knows that they are realy friendly and much more simillar to Poles than Germans ...
Thats why we should help for oposition in Russia , promote free media there ... because reacher more educated and free people in russia is better for our saffety
re: Well isn't that the Germans attitude to every other nation!!!
- No, not towards every nation. They ingratate themselves in other nations' favours, flatter these nations, play the divide-and-conquer politics (for now not in the military sense - yet).
Not only the Germans have this 'attitude.' Haven't you forgotten about the Russkies?
re: We just have to ignore them and let them get on with their imperialist thoughts :)
- You mean we 'have to' let them falsify history, puff themselves gradually with revanchist false beliefs? What do you think can result for us from this, mate?
re: Russians is that they are victimims of their own regime
You mean we 'have to' let them falsify history, puff themselves gradually with revanchist false beliefs? What do you think can result for us from this, mate?
they can falsify all they want, i'm sure everybody who is anybody knows exactly what the Germans have done in the past and their views in the Modern day. Everybody knows there is still a big 'NAZI' problem in Germany yet what are the government doing about it??
So they are 'victims' aftert all ?! Wow!
thats what you get when you can't control a communist state properly, it blows up in your face :)
re: they can falsify all they want, i'm sure everybody who is anybody knows exactly
- Wrong, my friend. If you allow hostile mass delusions to flourish, they can be used against you. A lie repeated ten times becomes truth. Look for evidence of this in Russia and Germany's recent history.
re: thats what you get when you can't control a communist state properly, it blows up in your face :)
- Perhaps so, but how does the above prove the point that the Russians are victims (not oppressors)? :)
Perhaps so, but how does the above prove the point that the Russians are victims (not oppressors)?
the Russian government are the oppressors and the Russian people are the victims
Wrong, my friend. If you allow hostile mass delusions to flourish, they can be used against you. A lie repeated ten times becomes truth. Look for evidence of this in Russia and Germany's recent history.
Even if they ever did rise up, they would have to many enemies to deal with :)
PS, tornado. You wouldn't believe what the German media say at present about Poland and the Poles. Goebbels would be happy. I'll be regularly giving samples of the German hate propaganda from entities such as Die Welt, Taggelspiegel, Frankfurther Allgemaine Zeitung.
re: the Russian government are the oppressors and the Russian people are the victims
First of all i speak russian on bassic level, but we have in Poland neewspapers where you can read current articles from all over the world translated in to Polish. And there are a lot of russian articles ...
Ohhh!!! Truth!!! So you just make public facts which picked out by somebody with his own points of view, biases and even more, interests....so you have no your own experience in present Russian life and moreover in past Russian life !
And the other think is that your "free" media is tallking all the time : " Poland isnt Russia ble ble ble ... Democracy like in the west isnt for us russians ble ble ble ... We have our patterns ... our Putin is great ble ble ble ... Russia is respected again ble ble ble "
Once, when Alexaner II was just a heir of the trone, he asked his teacher, - " What revolution is?" He answered: "Revolution is an insane attempt of the society to jump from Monday in Wednesday...". Well, our democracy is not perfect,but it has one characteristic property, it fits to present Russians conditions.
Yes they ar victims, and our greate german "friends" are suppoorting new face of old regime ... And we are not going to let them make form us (Poles) victims again ...
We do what we can do to help Russians, germans like always are supporting next regime (nothing new). It is not looking we are going to win this battle ... but all in all we are not going to be victim any more .
In this respect, I recommend to you works by the brilliant Brit historian Norman Davies, for example the recent 'Europe at War.' Pan Books. London 2007.
Ohhhh!!! He is a really "briliant" historian!!! He has polish wife, hence his son half-Pole, so his points of view may be contested!
Yes they ar victims, and our greate german "friends" are suppoorting new face of old regime ... And we are not going to let them make form us (Poles) victims again ... We do what we can do to help Russians, germans like always are supporting next regime (nothing new). It is not looking we are going to win this battle ... but all in all we are not going to be victim any more .
Ha !!! I really like Poles especially for one distinctive feature, their tremendouse self-sufficiency.... ;-)))) Sorry, but you neve win this battle because you have no resources! Take as a model Finland, Hungary or Bulgaria, this states more yielding and therefore wise. I think it rather madly to rush in the domestic life of the neighbour, especially if this neighbour 56 times larger than you, sorry.....but it's only my point of view.
So according to you, Konstaninok, the Russki history, with the tyrants-psychopaths, such as Ivashka the Terrible (mass serial killer), Piet'ka 'the Great' (mass killer, sex pervert), Kat'ka 'the Great' (monstrou sex pervert), Pavka (necrophile), Lenin (mass killer), Stalin (mass killer), Brezhnev (mass killer), and the present KGB descendant of those has been superior to Polish history?
Sorry me Puzzler, but you have narrow perception of history. You piled up history and traits. But I assure you that all acting in history have their logic explanations and motives!! For example Ivan IV (terrible is a bad translation from russian, "Tremendous" is more correct), his murders have clear political reasons, the extermination of the russian feudal nobility. And history, sorry Puzzler, pointed us that he was right, in contrast to his rival Batory.
Who is Pavka?
Quoting: ConstantineK especially if this neighbour 56 times larger than you But It's getting smaller... we will wait.
Ah.....and after all you want that we would permit to live your own life? No!!!
I used battle not to describe soldiers fighting on filed :-)))) Just the battle of idea :) You know I see myself as the liberal, and I belive the Democracy is good for everybody (maybe it isnt perfect but simply the best)
There were in history battles when one person was winning with whole coutry/regime/ect.
Look at Jean Paul II , Gahndi, Martin Luter King ...
I m not going to vote for opton in my coutry which will send trops to Russia :))) and to be serious. I just belive you are good enought (like every country/nation) to have democracy.
And when I writte about losting the batlle, I writte about that curently Russia is going somwhere ealse, for sure not to be more domocratic ... so we losting the battle, but the bigest victims are your citizens, who dont know what is it freedom of speach ect.
And manipulated society, witch strong developed propaganda aiming new enemies, is quite dangerous for Poland. Germans dont care about that, because they treat russians like not as good humans as they are (I have been in germany several times I have seen a lot ... ) and they just want your petrol and gas and dont care about Russians ...
... so they are great friend of regime but not your nation
used battle not to describe soldiers fighting on filed :-)))) Just the battle of idea :) You know I see myself as the liberal, and I belive the Democracy is good for everybody (maybe it isnt perfect but simply the best)
I understood your perfectly, I saw that you have used this term in mental sense! But the battle of ideas needs resorces too. Poland always build castles in the air, it imagine that it's a democracy pillar on the East... Probably it would be more useful to concentrate on the domestic affairs? The state which economy is sponsored only by EU and US can't dream about some superiority in idea field, let's leave it to US or to China at worst.
My dear Lukasz, realize this fact! Acting by such unwise manner, Poland triggers a chain of circumstances. Russia see in this attempts a hostile interference in domestic affairs, so Russia must resist, but Poland has no enough strength to withstand... :-((((
Quoting: ConstantineK we would permit to live your own life? We don't need any permissions from you... yawn...
You are right...bad word...., After all you want that russia will stop to interfer in the internal life of the neighbours!? Sure you need some supervisionj ust a a tiny bit...., otherwise you will harm yourself...
I have seen a lot of Russians in my life ... I know that it is very hard issue, but look here, we've disscused and discussed and we have arleady achieved something.
What is really important we need people in the top with good will ... and that is real problem
