Poland-Russia: never-ending story?

Stalin was preparing USSR for a war against the West.It was unknown if Germany or another country would attack.The preparation started in 1928 after all the communist parties in Europe had been defeated or their memebers imprisoned.Stalin told the central communist party commitee that SU has to prepare for a war which will take place in the next 10 years,so it has to overcome the gap separating it from western countries in weapons and industry development.


Very wrong.Stalin did not want a common border with Germany in any case.The Nazis would build roads and railways and be able to attack soviet Union the time they had completed their preparations.


Not exactly.Lenin and Trotsky had chosen the non-military,politically centered interference in international affairs.Soviet Union during Stalin rule was isolated internationally and all its supporters had been defeated.(in Germany in 1922,in GB in 1928,in Hungary in 1923,in Spain in 1938 etc),so Stalin chose to strenghthen military instead of growing political influence,sure that Soviet Union was the next to be attacked.


Stalin could not have taken such decision when officially the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was valid.It would provoke Germany and maybe make GB sign pact with Hitler allowing him to attack Soviet Union.

The partizan forces before communist parties interventions were very weakly organized and penetrated by Gestapo in most cases.They were not a real rival for Germans.

Partizan forces under communist rule were very dangerous and managed to hold a major part of occupied lands under their command for example in Yugoslavia,Greece,Ukraine.

Oh! You've found us out . Me in particular.

anyway, with all due respect on your oppinion

If I may suggest

if majority of Ukrainians want to be Ukrainians (seam that it is so; I can confirm even from my personal contacts on pan-Slavic meetings; even from private contacts in Voivodina/Serbia; from expiriance on the Net), if they consider themselves as unique nation (seam that it is so), then those who consider themselves as Russians need to accept that and even to salute it. Salute and face with smile any decisions of your brothers, your kin nation. That`s the only way between brothers

After all, we are all children of Mother Slavia.

regards brate


ahh, forgive me if i am too suspicious on Britons but here in the region, Britons (England particularly) are consider to be capable for even worse things then it could be collaboration with Hitler over common goals

so, OK. Maybe i`m not objective enough on Britons

When I look at you, you seam (sound) as regular guy, i must admit.

Salute

Why single out England? Would you care to elaborate? Is the south of England worse than the north?

no, really...?

aren't we all, eh? :))

@southern

you're right in some points, wrong in others. Too laze to respond now in a serious way, but I'll catcha later.

Here is some information on Stalin.
Through the extermination and the persecution of millions of people, the Soviet government attempted to conceal its crimes. Who knows exactly how many victims of terror there were? Where were the executed buried? Where were the countless camps and what transpired behind the barbed wire? Even the relatives of the deceased do not know the truth: "10 years without the right to correspondence" - this was the only information given about the fate of the convict under Stalinism, the short formula of his life and death.

He was never a great leader.

memo.ru/eng/history/intro.htm

yes it is true but now we must act unofficialy and I don't think that USA is going to support us in our efforts in this particular case all in all they fight agains terror as well ...

Why a hell Sikorski is our minister ? Yes he have some expirience ;) I hope so ;)))) some interial problems in Russia would be great ;) (joke)

Have you seen this F*** Paczka, they feel stronger and are more and more selfconfident we have to act.

USA is USA and I have my opinion about this country but we should have this base, just because ;-)

now we are going to smille to our eastern neighbour :))) and give them respect they want ;) and sth additional ;)))

He may not be very kind to his enemies, but he certainly was a good leader. ~80 000 000 people cant be wrong :-/

Why dont you remember the invasion of America when all local people were executed just for fun? Why dont you remember Hitler who was going to kill any person East from Germany up to Urals? Why do you tend to forget the first world war, where millions were killed? I just dont see how killing enemies can be a sign of bad leadership.

And we talk about soldiers,enemies in uniforms,not civilians.

exactly


paczka I think that you should know that we joke :))))))) dont worry we are friends now :))) we respect you and we have forgoten about the past :)

cheers

Kosovo first ;)

might be valid if Stalin was anything more than ia minor cavelry leader at the time.......


yes,and Ive noticed that those same nations blame their foibles on being part of Russia pre 1918,cant have it both ways.


Yes,he did this because about the only spy he semi trusted had confirmed the Jappanese intentions lay aginst the USA not USSR.


They had everything to do with allied victory in WW2,sorry to say it,you guys may have been occupied by the soviets but we Brits know they won the war and smashed gitler.


the USA gave the Red airforce a few of its crappiest Bell Aircobras,The red airforce smashed the lufftwaffe in the east flying Russian built migs and yaks...


actually,the papasha was very rae at the start of barbarosa,the ppd 40 was more commen and even that was rare compared to the german MP 38/40 or even the MP28s .The papasha was not "advanced" as such,just simple to make and very hardy(the drum mag was nicked from the finnish saumi).


It was the communist partizans who were the only serious resistence in western europe,france in particular,Paris fell to Red partizans,thats why De Gaulle was in such a rush to get there and seize control..

T-34 was far superior than any british tank of the same period,superior than american Sherman tanks and better than german Panzers 3 and 4.It was an unpleasant surprise for german troops when they could not penetrate the armour of T-34 by anti-tank weapons and tanks but only by the 88mm cannon.The german marshalls proposed to Hitler that german industry copies exactly the T-34.They used all captured T-34s they captured in Eastern front.Hitler did not like to get a product of the inferior Slavs and gave orders to produce the Tiger and Panther.These tanks were designed to cope with the T-34 in first place but never reached its level of production and its low price.

This is democratic demagogy.

T34 was far superior to any british tank for many many years mate.(but remember the world winning track suspension design was nicked from our vickers tank(christie designed in the states) The germans didnt call the Sherman the "Tommy cooker" for no reason,"we" called them the Ronson,after a famous brand of cig lighters advert slogan,"one strike and it lights". And dont get me wrong,Ive used the papasha "in the field" so to speak and its a cracking,reliable tool,Iraqi insurgents still use them !(well,chi com versions mostly..).

My point was,The stereotype image of mass ranks of PPSH 41/43 armed Frontoviks is from a later period of the war,at the start only really the NKVD border Guards were armed with sub machine guns to any great degree.Most soviet divisions were purely Rifle divisions.Where as the german combat units at that time had the standard practice of section leaders being armed with MP 40s.

Come again? It's not a question of having it both ways at all. Poland has, almost without exception, resisted being incorporated under the Russian umbrella. On the other hand, Poland has quite rightly pointed the finger toward Russia for "foibles" that occurred and most probably would not not have occurred but for Russian occupation and all its accoutrements.

Of course, your nation has not been in the same position as Poland but one can draw a delicious synonym between England and Russia viz Ireland. Simplictically, England occupied Ireland because it was a perceived part of the infant "Empire" and might makes right. England then imposed it's own social/political/legal norms on Ireland. And what about Scotland?

I wouldnt feel comfortable saying that Ireland "cant have it both ways" when the Irish say we aint English and a lot of our miseries were caused by the English.

Wave the finger of judgment somewhere else, particulalry if you have no identifiable nexus with the subject matter apart from a passing academic interest.

keep in context mate,dont follow me to another thread for an argument :)
My point was,that paczka was saying that most of eastern europe was the "russian empire",which it was at that time,ergo,they were loosly classed as russian citizens,just as the irish might not have liked it but to the rest of the world they were British citizens.N kay?


be interested to know whether you have actually been anywhere near Poland or eastern europe lately,or do you just have some automatic higher right from having some Polish blood?

Which was also a part of the colonisation of Ireland. Also, anyone heard of the Highland clearances?

I thought you folllowed me?! As long as you stay slightly behind me and to my left I dont mind. You can be like mini me! (*quietly whispering* I'm going to general discussions next to give you some time to respond to this post - you can follow me there) ;-)


I'm confused. Quote number 1090 shows you replying to Lukasz with words to the effect of not having it both ways. Plainly, you must have misquoted because there's no way in the world you'd be trying to evade the issue, is there?

Cheers, Dan

Russians were "Polish" citizens as welll :P so we can call them Poles but I will never do it. :P

or rather Lituanian so lets call them Lithuanians

what frikkin issue????Trouble with these forums is there seem to be so many issues,all get jumbled up then someone spits a dummy out and someone else takes their ball home......


lol,no,as I clearly(or not;) ) said,at that time they were under the russian empire so back then were classed as russian citizens,of course to now,in this day and age call them 2Russians" is just absurd ....

The issue that you have devolved into expressing generalised and negative sentiments of Poland. The issue that you quoted Lukasz and in response made such comments, then said you were replying to some other person, which confused me. I thought I made my issue pretty clear?

do you mean these sentiments?


well then,did I single out Poland?No. Im just stating an observation that nasty traits of locals are denied on grounds of being under russian occupation,any good traits from the same time are purely ethnicaly Polish/Ukrainine etc etc.Like "the irish" moaning about the british empire when infact so many irish were real movers and shakers in that same empire.

I agree - you didnt, but I didnt say you did single Poland out. If you catch someone in a shotgun blast and they complain about it, it's a bit trite to say "I didnt only get you, I was aiming for them as well".


Please give your view on good traits of Poland that were given by Russia and not ethnically Polish....

I cant say any come to mind but what has that got to do with anything?

where is paczka ? why he is so quiet. They know we can do it again :)

What,are you a frikkin Mujahadeen?Whats a picture of a war film poster about Afganistan got to do with anything?No,dont tell me,it was actually Polish people disguised as Pashtun warriors that beat the russians was it? :)

Ozi is right ... read below.

BTW Poles cooperated with USA and Afghans and can cooperate with devil if needed.

Your post is evasion, pure, simple and unadulterated. It's the safe haven of pub-knowledge pundits...

It's got everything to do with it. You post something, I take you up on the post and issue a challenge to give some examples and come up with the response that you did - I cant believe that nothing comes to mind for you when everything else seems to come to mind for you when you're not under pressure. If it's possible, please change your avatar such that the hands are shaking and sweat is pouring off the brow. Thanks mate.

Well, Yeltsin was an enemy civilian, that wasnt killed, but it doesnt meant he was less dangerous than Trotsky.


We are talking here about whether Stalin was a great leader of Russia, not a great leader of Poland, do we? If thats the case it doesnt matter how many people he killed outside USSR. If we we talking about him as a great communist leader than it would be a different talk.


Yeah, I was in the tank museum in Weymouth once and T-34 really has some good specs - even better that many later projects.


You can call them whatever you want mate, as long as it makes any sence to you fellow citizens. You know, it is really not Russian/German/British business how you call other nations in Poland.


Sleeping, I was.

:P
Dont go into discussing the film please.