Poland-Russia: never-ending story?

Your words terrified me paczka.

As i know, Russians connects Putin with their powerful days from time of Russian Empire, not with Stalin. With persons such was Peter The Great (referring on rebuilding of Russia and reforms).

and as i know, Russians want progressive and democratic (not democratic by false standards of so called west but truly democratic!) Russia. Only that kind of Russia can help to Serbs.

pozdrav

Why?He took the most important decisions.Capture of Baltics by Molotov-Ribentrop pact to delay the Germans,transfer of the industries to Urals where they were invulnerable to german air attacks,transfer of siberian divisions in winter 1941 to counterattack Germans before Moscow risking attack of Japanese and lose of eastern Siberia,decision to encircle Germans in Stalingrand,putting capable marshalls as Koniev and Zukov heads of the army.pressure on allies to open the western front,defense of Soviet Union as a national issue,organization of guerilla forces all over occupied european countries with national goals and large support,decision to put commisars into army to secure fighting spirit,and thousand other things in detail level such as choice of the right tanks to produce,right mashine guns etc.

What did he do wrong?Stalin was so dangerous that the Germans decided to assasinate him while Hitler was left untouched by British due to his disastrous strategic decisions after 1943.

- I hope it has a happy ending: the villains getting theirs. Oh, I hope I live long enough to see this.
:)

from another angle...

seams that Britons found that Hitler behaved according to their own strategic agendas- killing as more as possible Russians and Slavs as possible, weakening Slavic element on the long run, etc.


Stalin greatly contributed to Russian sufferings and to bad reputation of Russia. Why would Germans assassinated him?

After all, Stalin same as Lenin before him strengthening communism in Russia and we know that communism was spread as German project against Russia

In the same time, I won`t go into economic analyzes of some Stalin`s (as, if) decisions. It would be much batter that Germans failed to penetrate communism in Russia. Russia would then have opportunity to develop in much batter environment then during Lenin or Stalin, without communism. Somehow, Germans managed to slower rate of Russian progress and create chance that some future generations from so called west easiest come in position of enormous Russian resources. From today`s perspective and taking in consideration `all`, we maybe even can say that WWI and WWII were just preparation (in coordination of powers from so called west) for WWIII or just to say part of old and same well known scenario presented many times in `drang nach osten`.

We know that, its all about control over Russian and Slavic in general, resources

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenin

we were defender but If you think about our offensive on Kiev that it was against Russians you are wrong because we wanted independent Ukraina. What is more after we beaten Russians is battle of Warszawa and in battle of Niemen we could march on Moscov (and take it again) there was big French pressure to do so but Pilsudski said that there is Russia and Russia in for Russians.

Dont believe everything mr Radzinski writes about :) It is proves, that Stalin's son died in battle, daughter immigrated to the West (eer i think) and his mom died of natural causes.


Thats exactly kind of ignorance from the Polish side that turns Russians against you... Who knows, maybe some Polish guy back in 1920-ies told the same to Stalin?


I dont know, who lost the war, but it is you who complain that Poland was occupied for 50 years. Even though it won.


As Russia seems to me as a country divided into two parts - a White monarchists and a Red communists one (look at Russia's flag, there is even a joke about it, that there are Reds and Whites in Russia and there is Volga between them ) so i suppose some people connect Putin with Peter he great while other associate him with Stalin. And knowing it, Putin tryes to satisfy both parties without going into communism/monarchism extremes. I know what you mean by the real democracy, but I think 90-ies have shown former USSR states what it is about and they just can not accept it in any way. That is just the way it is now sadly, because if you choose from three main political systems Russia had lately, communism was most profitable for people. (Oh, and if someone wants to remind me about Stalin again, please bear in mind that there were 40 years under the red flag after Stalin's death.)


Well, I dont quite get the logic in being defenders by trying to make a part of another country independent. Its like if Canada would invade Alaska to defend it!

However todays Russia stands by the similar point of view and I think Putin made it clear - he is not going to attack or invade anyone whatever they do, but he will be ready to do so if any other country will become a threat to it. It is up to that country to decide what they want. In fact, all major countries share the same point of view, so I dont see anything strange here.

Ukrainian army was on our side. (Petlura) and Ukrainians arent Russians !

They were Russian until 1922, when the agreement was made and Ukrainian and Russia SSRs were formed. It is like people in Scotland are British.

false !

BTW it is our point of view, you can accept it or not.

I have noticed that Russians like to tell Poles Ukrainians and other nations thet they are Russians ...

I think I was wrong here, but still wasnt Ukraine divided into two states (pro-Russian and pro-Polish) up to 1939 anyway?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_SSR

[qoute]I have noticed that Russians like to tell Poles Ukrainians and other nations thet they are Russians ...[/quote]
Wiki on Russian Empire gives you pretty rather large map of the state which includes hell of a part of Europe. So, yes... Speaking generally even Finns can be considered as Russians, i guess.

and Iraq people Americans


as to me nothing has changed, but I wouldnt call them Russians or Poles

Stop being childing, they have never been a US state! While countries I named were part of RI not long ago. In fact, many people from Ukraine often say that they are Russian because Russia started off from Kiev. Also because of some language cases and life experience when people say Russians they mean Slavic people or even just white race.

10% ?


ask Ukrainians if they are Russians.


Norwegians are Russians too, because they are white ?

You may be surprised, but in general speech - yes, it is quite common to hear in the UK from russian-speakers
- Have you seen your new neighbourgh?
- Yes, I did.
- Is he Russian?
- No, he is from Pakistan, I think.
Thats just figures of speech, but when it is applied to eastern-european states it also can mean that they are slavic nations who once were in RI. This doesnt necessary mean that you have to speak Russian and have Russian roots and stuff, thats just the way it is. Like any other slavic language it really depends on the context when you say it.

Anyway, it seems we will never get on agreement, so let me just ask you 3 qs-
- Do you think that american anti-missile system in Poland doesnt benefit Poles?
- Do you believe that relationship between RU and PL should be build on trust and respect and be mutually benefitical?
- Do you think that any historical issues must not affect real-time situation?

Please answer just yes or no, I just want to get it straight...

agree


ok lets do it

-I want this system in Poland
-yes (maybe without trust) but ... mutually benefitical
-yes

Well, its good we agree on at least 2 points, and I think this is brilliant :) great minds think alike, eh? hehe

I can argue about the first one, but it is not us who decide what to do anywhay :-/

Im off, going beddy-byes...

I think we both are in the same way HONEST in our intentions ;) but It seams that officialy we will pretend that our relationships have bright future.

It is more than sure that we are going to have this anti-missile system, there is another poroblem if new president of USA is not going to change his mind. Our gov waits for signal form democrats that it will not happen.

Russia is problem and EU is sh!t it is more than sure that Tusk will never break our ties with USA. Yes we leave Iraq but in the same moment we are going to send more soldiers to Afghanistan so in TV we will see the end of our mission in Iraq but we are not going to see fact that we send this soldiers to Afghanistan. What we can say : USA needs ally in EU and we need strong ally as USA. German leaded EU is worthless.

We have to do everything to help USA to be strong.

Maybe USA is empire but imagine yourself Russia with power of USA.

smashing majority of Poles think as I think and this all slavic BS or another ideas about Russian Fins just strenghten our opinion.

Because they regarded hm as incompetent in the beginning of the war and then they faced the touchest possible resistance they could imagine.They found out that Stalin has deceived them about the power of the red army and they had fallen into a big trap carefully scheduled.Hitler admired Stalin.

Stalin said,''nobody will ever understand the way I think because I do not reveal my thoughts to anyone.People and historians will never understand my actions''.

I
In East Ukraine many people speak russian without even knowing ukrainian.In Crimea they say they are russians,not ukrainian at all.

I m after some lecture OMG don't listen to this Russian puppet Crow. It is our first task to support Kosovo ! First confrontatnion aganst Russia. Do you remember term "Jugol" yes they are nice now but Russians were nice in 90s. Do you remember Serbs form 90's ? I dont understand this symphaty for this nation here as I know their opinion in Poland is even worst than Russian.

2nd We must support all enemies of Russia and I m not tallking about political support or sth it is time to do act unofficialy. We have some expireince ;)

When I read some post on this forum I don't know if it is Polish forum or it is some extremists forum. Who cares about nations we mention so many times ... I m not going to comment it.

This pact had nothing to do with delay of Germans. Naive and greedy Stalin wanted to expand the empire and lated had wet pants when Hitler turned against him.

I don't really understand why do you attribute this victory to Stalin, in my opinion this is offensive towards people whom really deserve to be credited. This victory would be much easier without paranoid Stalin. When Hitler invaded the SU Stalin accepted some decision because he had no other choice. His previous incompetent policy caused lack of alternative solutions. He begged the west for help, indeed this is achievement...

I think the West begged Stalin for help.Even as late as 1945 if you see Churchill's letter.
Stalin was not naive at all.He had foreseen the german attack from 1928 and told to the central communist comittee ''we have 10 years to prepare for war that will determine our existence and if we fail we will be lost''.That is why the Soviets had so many tanks,artilery and planes when the Germans attacked.They were heavily equipped and prepared while the West was not ready.So Stalin

1.Decided to increase and improve armament production in view of war
2.Sent Molotov to sign treaty in order to take new army positions as to delay the Germans and stretch their supply lines when they would attack(which would not happen if the Germans had already done alliance with Latvians,Estonians etc before attacking).

3.Transported the industries to Urals to be outside the range of german planes
4.Decided to remove the forces from Siberia risking in case of Japanese attack and placed them in Moscow in order to attack Wehrmacht in the best time.The attack stoped the german offensive and caused danger of total collapse of german front which was saved by the personal insistence of Hitler that the troops remin in their positions despite the suggestions of generals who feared a catastrophy

5.Stalin listened to Zukov and left Stalingrand with weak forces in order to attract Germans inside and then encircle them by specially prepared forces which crashed specific areas of the german front

6.He insisted that western allies open the second front in Normandy from 1942-1943 which British always delayed and at the end admitted that they would do that in 1946 or later.

7.He set the national and ethnic background for the war and sent to communist parties all over Europe orders to organize partizan forces against german resistance under national ideals.

Seven successful actions.How did these not have to do with the victory of the allies in WW2?

Stalin attacked "Polish unarmed military" and still tied their hands, then had them shot in the head. Having them out of the way he went after the "unarmed Polish military reserve" more unarmed, living as farmers, sleeping with families in the night. Here they were killed or put on cattle cars to join his slaves in Siberia. Look into history of how many people this, "great hero" killed. He was no differant than Hitler. Unless you find honor in shooting the unarmed.

I completely disagree with you interpretations. Think what you want but this is bizarre for myself.

Say what, where do you think Stalin bummed his planes from.

They are not interpretations.They are facts.Things that happened.The resettlement of industry in Urals was something that happened.The armament production really happened.The preparation for war was a fact.The troops moved from Siberia.The resistance movements took place.If you think all this happened accidentally and was not planned or that it was not ordered by Stalin or that Stalin did not control it or disagreed,it is possible that you are wrong.Do you think anything major happened in Soviet Union without the command or consense by Stalin?

It would be mission impossible to you to prove to Poles that Serbs are Russian puppets, while Poles very well know who is German puppet in the region.

In every moment of Serbian existence, Serbs paying price for being loyal to all their brothers, like titans stuck in the limbo between powers which divide Slavdom.

But, majority of Balkan Serbs is Orthodox it is truth, same as Russians (well not exactly, we are St. Sava`s Orthodox) and just for the moment some Catholic Poles could stay confused because of their own prejudices on Orthodoxy in general.

Well, I am of Racowie kind- prejudice slayer, Sarmatian cavalier and son of samorodna Slavia.

It certainly did, but are you sure it happened before the German attack?

Also, Soviets helped Germans restore and develop their military might on the Soviet territory since 1920's. I can't see how that fact would support your idea of Stalin's hunch about the German's attack on Russia. If the hunch was true indeed, why would he help Germans to arm themselves?


Again, agreed that all these things happened. But the question is that of timing. Stalin was a great (albeit shrewd) politician but he made his share of mistakes.

They provided them land to develop their aircrafts which they did not have the right to produce under Verssailles treaty.The obligation of the Germans was to give Soviet Union technical support and knowledge to develop soviet planes which would adopt the same technology improvisations as the german ones.Thi stopped when Hitler came to power.You cannot tell which part was more benefited because both were.

Stalin started to produce ammunition for long term war years before WW2.Examples are the soviet tank T-34 which was totally unknown to Germans before seeing it on the battlefield or the assault rifle PPSH41 which were very advanced and did not have german equivalent when the war started.

The decision to move all industries to Urals was made in the first year of the war as wasthe decision to organize partizan forces by communist parties in occupied Europe.

That is correct. But that is not an automatic indicator that Stalin did sought, or was even preparing the USSR for a war against Germany. In fact the Soviets tried to convince Germans to go to war against Poland since 1920's. His efforts to increase industrial output and create a meaningful military strength, IMO, is not a good indicator of any specific wars, targets, or perceived aggressors. For a country such as the USSR it was simply prudent to work towards having a strong military.


1941 was not the first year of war.


That was also in 1941 after the German attack, and almost two years after partisan forces well already pretty well organized in other parts of Nazi occupied Europe.