Matters of Propaganda...Or: how was the West portrayed in Poland?

I don't think I agree with you on this part, Dariusz, at least not from a Western point of view. The West regarded Hungary and Czechoslowakia as the most "Western" countries of the Eastern Bloc; they were the easiest to get visas for (we basically had to wait for months before getting a visa to Eastern Europe, but to CZ and HU it just took a few weeks and they were much more leniant). Poland, sorry to say that, wasn't really regarded as a "Western" country. Many ppl looked down upon it as being poor and dirty at the time. If there was any sympathy for Eastern-Blokes, it would be for the Czechoslovaks and the Hungarians.

However, none could match Yugoslavia, but then again, Yugo was considered "one of us", even though it was communistic at the time. All through the 60's, 70's and 80's there was mass-tourism from the West in Yugoslavia. It was cheap and it was beautiful, had everything: beach, mountains, culture and the like. It was very popular, at least in Holland, as a destination. Ok, there sometimes was a bit of a hassle at the border, but it was nothing that a few Deutschmarks couldn't fix.

Edit: CZ was generally regarded as the country that matched us mostly. They were (in our opinion) the most advanced, peaceful ppl of the entire Eastern Bloc. Czech cars (Skoda) were sold in the West long before Lada came onto the market.

>^..^<

M-G (went to Yugo a few times as a teenager)

BB, you've got to be kidding me... The number of Soviet troops in DDR was big, because that was where the front of the potential WW3 would have been. In DDR even parents/children spying on each other were nothing unusual. It's obvious for everybody with any knwledge about those times that Poland, Czechoslovakia and Hungary were much more liberal countries during communism than Bulgaria, Romania or DDR.


lol...

Well, at least we tried..

You had 60.000 enemy troops keeping in check more than 30 million "freedom loving, communism hating, brave" Poles.

The eastern Germans had to put up with nearly 350.000 enemy troops for 15 Million "cowards", right?

But they at least tried it and paid with more than 900 people murdered at the wall over the years...


Absolutely!
You should keep that in mind the next time you go on with your insane raving about the "barbarian" Russians again...

Gorbatschov was under fire from his own hardliners who couldn't wait to show you the might of the soviet armies...in the GDR the party leadership even asked him for military support but he kept them at bay!

Another clue that some Poles have an absolutely skewed self-image...really believing they were more freedom-loving, more brave or in any way most important for the fall of the iron curtain! :)

Grzegorz_

Greg, Bratwurst has a good point in saying that the Revolution was made pssbl thanks to Perestroika and Glasnost. While these two may not have invented the Revolutions, they surely created the environment in which a Revolution was more likely to succeed than it had before that.

>^..^<

M-G (honour where it is due)

As much as I like the information being reviled to me.
This argument is about which place was more communist hating?
Poland or East Germany?
And youz are proving that by stating how many soviet troop were in each country at the time?
I don't think that is an effective way of proving "who hated communism more" but hey, go for it, just try to give info rather than telling us that the other person knows nothing.

No, my opinion is clear, there is no people loving freedom more than the other (that was Z_Darius).
I said from the beginning that all people in the eastern bloc felt more or less the same and wanted freedom and independence as they had in the West.


Well...when one poster brags about his "brave, communism-hating" people but has nothing to show for it but his opinion (not even an uprising but only few troops he could have surely thrown out if he had hated them so much)...such numbers are helpful to show him the reality! :)

Like with "Putin is a crystal democrat" and other similar crap, you are just serving us so popular in Germany Russophilic propaganda.

ROFL
Putin is no Gorbatschov, but when it helps you imagine Putin being on the throne in Moskau in 1989. I really doubt we would know each other now...

Say a big "THANK YOU" Mr. Gorbatschov! :)

BBoy, do you think the soviet troops stationed in DDR were forbidden from being engaged in Poland if it came to the use of military? What's more, Honecker offered East German troops to help deal with Solidarity in early 1980's.

What's the difference where those troops were stationed?

Using the same logic you might say that city A or city B in Poland was safe because the nearest Soviet base was an hour away from them.


Of course some tried. Some were killed while trying to escape, some by Stasi.

That happened in all communist block countries to a greater or lesser degree. The fact remains that Poles gave the Soviets the most trouble in the commie times and that is fact. And it certainly not was East Germany that inspired the last stand between people and communism.


Where the hell did I say that?
Quote me.

Prove it.

Again i am not having a go at anyone but I would like to know.

Largest number of uprisings against communism.
The strong position of church in Poland held the nation together against commies
Exports of forbidden literature (that included the bible)from Poland to the USSR
Heck, JP2 was a pole, in case you forgot. If he didn't cause Soviets trouble then I don't know who did.

They had alot of difficulties to find polish soldiers to help with the spring of Prague, didn't they...


Oh...you mean the cowardly East-Germans should have tried another uprising as the masses of red armists at their doors were meant for the brave Poles only anyhow???


How many Poles were killed trying to flee the country again???


Where? When?


Not very successfull then, weren't they?
The commies had Poland in their grip till 1989, like any other country in the eastern bloc.
And it wasn't martians nor the very few armed Russians but polish commies!!!

BB, sorry but you are making a fool out of yourself... What kind of opportunities had Poles to escape ? Walk to Czechoslovakia ? I repeat, all serious historians and other people with some knowledge about these things will tell you that DDR was much more Sovietized than Polish People's Republic. Get over that.

Hm, opinions about JP2 are strongly divided. I understand that in PL he is regarded as a hero and first Pole among Poles. In Ireland he is pretty much adored too, but in many other countries he is not so popular as he did some stuff that could be regarded as not helping progress, to put it mildly.

For example, a lot of aide workers in Africa were not too happy about the fact that he undid in 15 minutes what they have been working on for years and years. Like they put it: "You spent years of trying to get the ppl to use condoms to prevent more babies being born and to stop the spreading of AIDS. And along comes pope JP2 and tells them that the usage of condoms will land you in Hell. Promptly everybody stops using condoms and we can start anew." It's just an example, but JP2 wasn't that highly popular over here. We called him actually "Popie Jopie" (Pope who wants to be popular - freely translated).

>^..^<

M-G (beeedaaaankt for die bluuuumehn - JP2's standard line in Dutch during the Easter Mass each year)

Well...german people got murdered trying to cross the border as far as down in Bulgaria/Greece.
What kept the Poles?


Just repeating crap doesn't make it less crap!
Care to give some links?

Good point, Greg. Escape was nigh on impossible given the vast concentration of soldiers and monitoring.

Anyway, this is spiralling into a farce. Back to the topic. Poles still have a fascination for the West in terms of the goods they have. Many Poles didn't even have passports so recent developments have peaked their curiosity.

This is a great thread. I wish it would remain on topic though.

Ooooh...not for the brave Poles...don't shatter my ideal!
When the Germans could do it why couldn't the Poles (or at least trying)?

I think it's full on topic! The Poles talking themselves into brave resisters to commie oppression compared to cowardly Germans IS a kind of propaganda, a myth they repeat often enough...:)

Thank you Seanus. I want to see more examples of anti-West propaganda and ppl's views on Westerners.

<^..^<

M-G (and that's a fact, man!)

This topic is not about Africa, so spare us your Catholic-phobic nonsense.


That's not crap but obvious fact and I'm sure you know It.

No, I don't know it...that's why I ask you for more links!

You must know I lived so near the wall I could hear regularly shots from the guards. Sometimes one would hear about the happening next morning in the Rias, sometimes not.

Maybe I halluzinated all the time?
Help me out here....gimme links!

I have one for the "brave, resisting" Poles:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Bloc#Prague_Spring_and_the_1968_invasion_of_Czechoslovakia


Yeah...what a tough, resisting nut Poland proved to be for the commies!

I know, I started the topic myself. But if you guys want to continue over who got the most Soviet troops within their borders, then a little Africa wouldn't hurt either. And besides, it served as an example, nothing Catholic-phobic.

>^..^<

M-G (tsk!)

You are younger than me, so stop pretending to be some cold war veteran as that's cartoonish.

The one thing I have noticed about every ex-communist country I have been, is the distrust of other ex-commie countries.
In Lithuania they used to tell em never to go to Poland, as I was sure to be in a car crash and robbed.

A joke my father told me was,
In the U.S.S.R, two men are wearing the same make of jacket, one asks the other, "How much did you pay for you jacket?", "500$" the other man proudly announces. The first man states triumphantly "tufth! I paid 1000$ for my jacket".

I suppose the point of the joke is that ex-communist countries seem to have inferiority complexes and need to prove they are somehow better.

In Lithuania I had so many people bragging to me that Lithuania has the highest suicide rate in the world!

Wow, so after all it wasnt only East Gerans who rebelled against commies?


None was killed trying to escape to DDR for sure. Few attempted escapes to the USSR or CSSR


And yet Poles held its first free elections after the fall of communism almost two months before East Germans decided it was safe to do some masonry work on the wall.


You're all over the place. What does the Pope's input in the fall of communism have to do with condoms in Africa?

Nothing "veteran" about it!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Gueffroy



No, East-Germany, Hungary, Prague...ooops...no Warsaw??? How come???
After listening to you one could believe you led the fight all the way! Weren't you the "toughest nut"?


Well, they could had tried traveling to Germany...East-Germans tried to flee from every country they could reach!

I guess I'll throw in some more anti-communist propaganda. This time it's from the 60's (not sure though, but it says so) and the worst thing about this vid is that it wasn't intended as a joke, although it seems that way. Have a look for yourself.

>^..^<

M-G (strange)

Well..you on the other hand were safe to do that all along! But...what took you so long?
Didn't you wanted that for decades??? You tough nut you...

East Germans gave up after one try while Poles tried for decades, in spite of 60K soviet troops in Poland and another 300+ next door at our commie brethren in DDR.


Some of the anti-commie propaganda was even more ridiculour than commie propaganda :)

Although in some countries they indeed succeeded when it comes to weeding religion out of main stream life.

Do you listen to yourself man?
We had an uprising, every year people go murdered trying to leave the country...a huge army of soviet soldiers was stationed in the GDR and I have the statistics to prove that but still you try to present the Poles as the "toughest nut" who resisted most? How? What proof do you have?

What next? More brave than the Czechs? More resisting than the Hungarians??? WHEN??? When did you do all that??? Maybe I really lack the education but then clue me in!