Should Germany claim to be the victims in Poland?

Relations between Berlin and Warsaw are strained, and given the reaction to this exhibition from the Polish government, it is likely to deepen the mistrust between the neighbouring countries.

Even before it opened its doors, the exhibition "Forced Paths" attracted a lot of controversy in the German and Polish media.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4788167.stm


Thank you

Carol

- This is an article which isn't at all amicable towards Poland and Poles. E.g. quoting Erika Steinbach as a respectable source, as a mere 'Christian Democrat politician,' and concealing the fact of her being a political troublemaker and Polonophobe (apart from her having been born in the German-occupied Poland and the descendant of Nazi parents), is the usual hacky manipulation of facts. The main idea of the article is: 'the Germans (and others, such as Americans) were victms of expulsions, but the Polish government and Poles show an irrational hostlity towards a centre commemorating the fact.' The hack who scribbled the piece hasn't bothered to explain why Poles are so opposed to the idea of the German commemorative centre under Steinbach. That's the BBC for you when it comes to relating about things Polish. I have no doubt whose side the BBC is going to be on in the coming struggle of Poles with the German propaganda campaign showing the 'expellees' as the victims of the Poles and the Poles as the oppressors of the Germans and others, and with the German attempts to get either fat financial compensation for the alleged German victims or even grab back our Regained Territories.

???

what r u talking about?
Another America hater?

America hater? Not at all. My good friends are American. Even ur own leading experts have shown very convincing evidence that bombs were planted in the Twin Towers. I'm merely stating what I regard to be true. The Bush family had strong ties with the Bin Laden family. OK, thanks for your money and, well, people died but that's our agenda people. A culture of fear!!

I must aggree with freebird on this one, it's amazing how backs have turned after the shock of Sept. 11. You give one person "Bush" the responsability of Sept. 11th yet the ones that were there would have to dispute this. Opps, they can't as they are dead. Have you listened to the phone conversation of the ones that got to say goodbye before trying to fight for their lives. All the arguments over this are lame,like, USA could have taken the planes out. Ya, I bet they could have, but Bush in an elementray class (visiting US school children when 1st plane crashed) wishes today he had.

Carol

Because Bush has slipped up, it doesn't mean I hate America. Like every other humane person out there, the death of 3000 innocent people affects u. How is taking the planes out lame? That's what the majority of Americans would have expected under the circumstances. Have u read some of the testimonies from the 9/11 Committee? Quite revealing. The conspiracy theorists have really turned heads with their findings. I can't believe u don't think 9/11 was an inside job. That twat Dick Cheney doesn't have dick in his name for no reason u know.

It is the inside job I refer to as lame. Believe me the USA citizens know there are others that hate us. Just the fact that we are free turns some into killers, not able to stand the though of losing control over people that they have under their thumbs.


Now here I aggree, this"twat" has an ability to bs and sound like he is thinking on the best intrest of the people. I feel his actions are done in such a manner that his face is never shown and attatched to the actions.

Carol

I agree, I had to go to Google Images to get a picture of Cheney, he is the secretive man behind the scenes, the right hand man of Bush who is, rather peculiarly, rarely at his right hand, hehehe. He does appear to be anonymous.

Way back in 2001-2002, I met many Americans in Japan who expressed fears about travelling given the anti-American sentiment that was going around. Many of them had already sewn/sewed Canadian flags onto their backpacks/rucksacks. I judge people as people (what a cliche I know), irrespective of their nationality. I am 'supposed to' hate English people but I've met many whom I've liked a lot, great drinking partners.

Let's return to the German issue

looks like nyc still hasnt figured out just because someone cant stand the inbred draft dodging drug taking alcoholic weirdo monkey boy you all have as pres' doesnt mean they hate america .(still,doesnt mean we like you tho freebird.)


Yes lets,lunatic conspirocy theories belong on other forums......


Try reading the links at the begining of the thread then you dont have to look daft as well as paranoid.
Many hundreds of thousands of german civilians suffered terriblyin 1945 being forced out of east prussia etc by the oncoming red army, also once the borders had been fiddled around with at the end of the war all german families were booted out of what had become poland,including places that had been german/prussian for centuries. So yes,in short some germans were victims in poland.

I agree but largely at the hands of the Russians as u rightly acknowledged. It was to be expected that a certain section of the Polish population would also vent their spleen and toss out some Germans. Just read The Pianist by Szpilman and you will see how badly Poles were treated. Germany could have claimed to be victims in a sense but 'the victims', I'm afraid not!!

Yes,he leaves a lot out though(Poles will know what ...)


If you read the link you will find the museum is intended to be about ALL of europes civilian displacments/ethnic cleansing,the uproar is the fact that,quite rightly imho,the germans are including the suffering of their own people in this as part of the whole story,instead of the usual " Jews were mass murdered and sure a few other people died along the way....." type of "history" of the mid 20th century.

And i hate to be the first one to bring this up but surely,if "you" want a country to never,ever go down again the road that germany did one thing "you" want is for the germans to know how much they suffered as well as everyone else? After all if a big kid hits a little kid then the spanking the big kid gets off his dad will maybe act as a deterent ,being told its naughty to hit someone is not quite as effective..

If we look at individual Germans, there was actually quite a number of victims. T-4 euthanisia program killed thousands of German disabled.
But when Germany as a nation calls itself as victim, it is just plain wrong.

Tod ist ein Meister aus Deutschland(death is a master from Germany).

I think a big part of Polands reaction to this is due to most of the talk of what happened the Jewish "Holocaust" were the victims. When will the world see it was "Poland" that paid the price. Not Jewish, Germany, Russia or Ukraine. I guess because they left the name Poland behind Communist it's not seen as clear as it was. No Poland did not loose a small piece they lost their country.

Carol

Very difficult to be accepted that way.Can you imagine?''There was no jewish Holocaust.There was a polish Holocaust.Jews died because they were Poles''.The Germans will laugh under their moustaches.

It's hard to get clear evidence of who u r capturing or killing sometimes, just look at the case of NI and the Stormont Parliament who swept up many IRA guys who were active way back in the 1950's but had long since put down their arms and renounced terrorist activities come the advent of the internment campaign. Bowyer Bell is a good author on this one. What I can say is that the Nazis specifically targetted the Jewish intelligentsia and prominent Jewish figures, not Poles, early days. Sometimes, the German authorities couldn't differentiate Poles and Jews. I agree more with southern, it was anti-Semitism that fuelled the killings, not being anti-Polish

Yes, Thank you. My family died also and I will be equal to Jewish not below. Hitler said, "Poland" not Jewish.


So be it.


It was not just Jewish, divide and concure. In the name of God. My Black book of Poland listing is not just "Jewish" it was Polands, doctors, teachers, artists, scientist anyone that showed intellagence. Then they used Jewish to divide and turn religion into a tool. But Hitler clearly said it was to be all Polish.

Carol

Well it was the Jews who were to be killed automatically, Poles had the "priviledge" to serve as slaves to Germans after a massive sterilization program. In German occupied territory in it was more dangerous to be a Jew than a Pole.

dont get me wrong, I have great admiration for Poles, they never gave up or chose the easy path.
you are right in the part that Poland as country suffered most compared to other countries in Europe.

Not in Eastern Poland... It was military, Catholic, Jewish, Polish and Ukrainian.

Carol

I echo the sentiments of Maxxx Payne, beautifully put and, yes Celinski, there was a Polish Holocaust of sorts but the world will always remember the Jewish one more. Greater numbers died

Poles were never sterilized.Germans did not want to be left without slaves in the future.


Yes,polish intellectuals,so that Poles become faithful to Germans.
Hitler refered clearly to Bolshevics and their extermination.He put them in the Jew category.

This is not true. I will get the #'s for you. It is because Jewish stuck together and are known to be loud and speak up. Remember, they were not in Poland under communist control and could speak. They just forgot to mention others. Carol

6 million Jews,half of them polish Jews,3 million Poles non-Jews.

I agree but if the Aryan philosophy was so absolute, so targetted, why weren't blue-eyed blonde people spared? This was Hitler's vision, to have such people

They tried to recruit Aryan looking Slavs and discovered that there were much more Slavs looking like Aryans than Germans were.So they stopped the recruitement among Slavs.

Thanks for all that Celinski. It's the people who stopped Stalin and Hitler that should be proud, the Poles put up some great resistance and stood up for their way of life. America helped out a lot in WWII, we must acknowledge their part. I haven't heard many arguments suggesting that the Germans were the victims, that's the way it should be

Yes,they are.Both communists are proud for stopping Nazis and Waffen SS are proud for stopping communists.

Hehehe, I meant the allied forces, Great Britain in particular

Poland never gave up even when they knew they were betrayed. To me this speaks to the pride I have in Polish.

Carol