Gdansk and it's history with Poland

8 Jul 2009 / #61

Interesting source Harry...

Another gem of Danzig, the Artus Court:
mhmg.gda.pl/international/index.php?lang=eng&oddzial=2

....The first court was erected on a plot of land belonging to the city since 1344, by the Saint George Brotherhood at its own expense and effort. The Brotherhood associated the knights from rich German families.
We do not know a lot about the functioning of this elite brotherhood in the first century of its existence. We only know that it was of a knight-religious nature and probably organised military exercises for Gdańsk citizens and tournaments, similar to comparable brotherhoods in Braniewo and Riga.....

The Uphagen house:
mhmg.gda.pl/international/index.php?lang=eng&oddzial=3
Obviously polish, this Johann Uphagen!

The Tower Clock museum hinting at the history
of the Saint Catherine's Church...the final resting place of the famous astronomer Johannes Hevelius.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Hevelius
...no...don't tell me...another diehart Pole obviously too! ;)

Core polish this Danzig...I'm convinced now!

Torq

8 Jul 2009 / #62

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Hevelius

Jan Heweliusz was ethnically Czech, but a loyal subject of Polish king which
at that time (long before the age of primitive ethnic nationalisms) equalled
being a Pole.

"Jan Heweliusz was the first Pole included among the members of the Royal Society in London. This important event took place on 19 th March 1664".

Danzig

The name of the city is Gdańsk. If you want to change it
to Danzig you have to first come and get it :)

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11816

8 Jul 2009 / #63

Yes, as Kopernikus was polish too...ja ja!

PS: Bohemia doesn't mean necessarily Czech in these times...

If you want to change it to Danzig you have to first come and get it :)

Why...in Germany it's Danzig.
It's no big deal that other countries tell the names of foreign cities differently...
The English call Nürnberg only Nuremburg for example...or Cologne for Köln.

sjam 2 | 541

8 Jul 2009 / #64

Heinrich Ungeradin.

Seems he also built another important structure in Gdansk:

In 1379 a masonry master Heinrich Ungeradin with his team started construction work on the St. Mary's Church (Polish: Bazylika Mariacka, German: Marienkirche) or, properly, Basilica of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Gdańsk

Since 1485 the works were carried over by Hans Brandt, who supervised the erection of the main nave core. The works were finally finished after 1496 under Heinrich Haetzl,

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11816

8 Jul 2009 / #65

Yeah...Ungeradin, Brandt, Haetzl...all proper Poles! :)

scarbyirp

8 Jul 2009 / #66

Perhaps Gdansk could be leased back to Germany for say 5 years....so that they can build some proper roads. :)

Torq

8 Jul 2009 / #67

Yes, as Kopernikus was polish too...ja ja! heh

Well, I think we discussed it before and came to the conclusion that he was certainly
more Polish than German (2:1 Poland, if I remember the score correctly) :)

It's no big deal that other countries tell the names of foreign cities differently...

Well, exactly - you're using German on a Polish forum!

Cessez s'il vous plaít de parler dans cette langue irritante ;)

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11816

8 Jul 2009 / #68

(2:1 Poland, if I remember the score correctly) :)

Nah...you said we should fight it out on the football lawn! So there!

Torq

8 Jul 2009 / #69

we should fight it out on the football lawn!

OK - agreed....under one little condition - we change "football lawn" to "speedway track" :) Go Unibax Toruń (Thorn)!!

Sokrates 8 | 3335

8 Jul 2009 / #70

Yeah...Ungeradin, Brandt, Haetzl...all proper Poles! :)

What Harriet forget to say in his lying post is that the guy was working on the commission of the Polish king and that the town hall was built according to Polish reneissance fashion :))))

As for these guys, they were as Polish as Kopernik was German :)

Harry

8 Jul 2009 / #71

They were as Polish as Copernicus was German? You mean they spoke only Polish & Latin, had Polish mothers and were raised by Polish Uncles?

By the way, it wasn't my lying post: it was information from the museum of the history of Gdansk. Go call them liars.

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11816

8 Jul 2009 / #72

the town hall was built according to Polish reneissance fashion :))))

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_in_Poland

Two largest contemporary cities - Kraków (which attracted many Italian architects) and Gdańsk (which attracted mostly architects from Germany and the Netherlands) - were probably the biggest beneficiaries of the era,, but many other cities also spotted Renaissance buildings.

Renaissance painting was introduced in Poland by many immigrant artists, like Hans Dürer and Hans von Kulmbach...

essential-architecture.com/STYLE/STY-renn-pol.htm
You should pay some respect to the non-polish part of Polands "golden age" Sokrates!

PS: Honest interest here...I know about Renaissance, Barock or Gothic but how is the polish "fashion style" called?

Sokrates 8 | 3335

8 Jul 2009 / #73

You should pay some respect to the non-polish part of Polands "golden age" Sokrates!

I do, great architects working on Polish commisions, not German ones.

PS: Honest interest here...I know about Renaissance, Barock or Gothic but how is the polish "fashion style" called?

Simply Polish Gothic, Polish reneissance, Baroq specifically was very common and had many specifics for Poland, same goes for all larger countries or cultural regions, German architecture differs slightly from the Polish one.

Also "italian" means exactly that it borrowed from Italian one, conversly German reneissance was also from the Italian school.

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11816

8 Jul 2009 / #74

I do, great architects working on Polish commisions, not German ones.

But the brain, the skill, the work was not polish...
The commissions were given to these architects and builders because they were so good.

Pan Kazimierz 1 | 195

8 Jul 2009 / #75

Copernicus:

He used Latin and German, knew enough Greek to translate the 7th-century Byzantine poet Theophylact Simocatta's verses into Latin prose (Armitage, The World of Copernicus, pp. 75–77), and "there is ample evidence that he knew the Polish language" (Norman Davies, God's Playground, vol. II, p. 26

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11816

8 Jul 2009 / #76

here is ample evidence that he knew the Polish language

I would like to see some evidence for that Pan..
Because during former discussions about Kopernikus nobody could bring a hint that he ever used polish or even knew it.

OP Ironside 50 | 12381

9 Jul 2009 / #77

The commissions were given to these architects and builders because they were so good.

Employee were Polish and thats what count.....

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11816

9 Jul 2009 / #78

Well..if that is enough for you to be proud of it...it's fine by me! :)
I won't discuss this then anylonger...(It wouldn't be enough for me!)

Pan Kazimierz 1 | 195

9 Jul 2009 / #79

I would like to see some evidence for that Pan..
[quote]Because during former discussions about Kopernikus nobody could bring a hint that he ever used polish or even knew it.

There was a source listed along with that statement, take it up with Davies if you wish (just check page 26, etc. for related information, and possible check Davies' cited source independently). I sadly do not have access to the volume right now.

Harry

9 Jul 2009 / #80

I do, great architects working on Polish commisions, not German ones.

Oh, so when you said "Polish built" you actually meant "Polish commissioned" and were, surprisingly enough, lying.

Employee were Polish and thats what count.....

Really. Well in that case we need to reclassify the iPhone as a Chinese phone. It is made by Chinese employees.

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11816

9 Jul 2009 / #81

take it up with Davies if you wish

No, I ask you!
There should be another source to find on the net besides Davies (who is a tad to biased concerning Poland anyhow for my taste).

Harry

9 Jul 2009 / #82

I like the way in Rising '44 when he bases a large part of the German perspective on material he refers to as coming from the German Federal Archives in Bonn. There are no Federal archives in Bonn!

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11816

9 Jul 2009 / #83

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Davies#Criticism

...Some colleagues have accused Davies of being an opinionated and biased Polonophile[5] who strives to give the most charitable interpretation towards Poland's actions in Polish-Russian, Polish-Jewish, Polish-Ukrainian or Polish-German conflicts.[5] In particular, some historians, most vocally Lucy Dawidowicz[6] and Abraham Brumberg,[7]....

...In 1986, Dawidowicz's criticism of Davies' historical treatment of the Holocaust was cited as a factor in a controversy at Stanford University in which Davies was denied a tenured faculty position for alleged "scientific flaws"....

Yes, one Davies quote won't be enough!

Davies holds a number of honorary titles and memberships, including honorary doctorates from the universities of the Jagiellonian University (since 2003), Lublin, Gdańsk and Warsaw (since 2007), memberships in the Polish Academy of Learning (PAU)

On December 22, 1998, President of Poland - Aleksander Kwaśniewski awarded him the Grand Cross (1st class) of the Order of Merit of the Republic of Poland.

Definitely not enough!
No objective historian here...

sjam 2 | 541

9 Jul 2009 / #84

Dawidowicz'

She:

accused the British historian Norman Davies of seeking to whitewash Polish anti-Semitism and of being an anti-Semite himself.

Although Lucy Dawidowicz is not above academic criticism herself.

I am no great fan of Davies' later books because of his sloppy editing but Norman Davies did keep interest in Poland alive in the "West" when most westerrn academics were not really publishing anything about Poland. So there is much for Poles to thank him for.

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11816

9 Jul 2009 / #85

I am no great fan of Davies' later books because of his sloppy editing but Norman Davies did keep interest in Poland alive in the "West" when most westerrn academics were not really publishing anything about Poland.

Well...
What use is it if he got the image of a biased polonophobe? Who will regard his books as valuable works of history (besides Poles that is)?

Oh and Davies is by far not the only one!
Only the most polonophope of them...in the GDR we called those "government historians"...presenting a view of history as the government liked! But nobody took them seriously.

Jan Gross for example is also a popular historian (well known in the West) who too wrote about polish history.
So it isn't the "awakening of interest about Poland" per se, it's the kind of history which is written what counts, isn't it.

Torq

9 Jul 2009 / #86

What use is it if he got the image of a biased polonophobe?

Oh and Davies is by far not the only one! Only the most
polonophope of them.

Well, if you say that Davies is a polonophobe and being a polonophobe he admitted
that there are proofs that Kopernik spoke Polish, then I guess we can believe him.

:)

Jan Gross for example is also a popular historian...

...and a biased polonophile no doubt :)

yourdictionary.com/phobe-suffix
yourdictionary.com/phile-suffix

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11816

9 Jul 2009 / #87

Yes, sorry about the typos...I apologize! (As I wanted to correct them the mod already closed my post...mean mod!)

Torq

9 Jul 2009 / #88

No need to apologize. Well, maybe to professor Davies - a serious and honest
historian, for believing the pety rumours of him being "biased polonophile".

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11816

9 Jul 2009 / #89

biased polonophile

Well....I just think we should use other sources beside him to prove a point in a discussion.
(Just to make sure)
If his facts and conclusions are correct (as with Kopernikus using polish) then they will be supported by others too, no doubt...(as it was with Gross' findings about Jedwabne)

Harry

9 Jul 2009 / #90

Well, maybe to professor Davies - a serious and honest historian

Personally, and I know I'm not alone in thinking this, I find Davies too popularist, condescending selective and frankly biased to be referred to as a serious historian. Just look at Rising '44: his message is that Warsaw was sacrificed by the Western allies but he gives close to bugger all attention to western attempts to supply Warsaw (doesn't even mention the number of flights) and none at all to the actually feasibility of the Western allies supplying the Uprising (most probably because it was pretty much fecking impossible for them to have done so and so doesn't fit his theory). I particularly dislike his angelcising of Warsaw street names and referring to people only by either pseudonyms or positions Premier Mikolajczyk becomes "Premier Mick" while General Bor-Komorowski becomes "General Boor".