Gdansk and it's history with Poland

1jola 14 | 1,879

4 Jul 2009 / #31

It is a lttle known historical fact that Hitler committed suicide because of his erronous belief that:

Sokrates 8 | 3,345

4 Jul 2009 / #32

Well Germans did build a nice catedral you got to give them credit where its due but building a big church and living in a city for 300~ years when its over 1000 years old stil doesnt give one historical claims to it.

plk123 8 | 4,138

4 Jul 2009 / #33

But whats a classic Polish architecture ?

there is no classic Polish architecture!

wrong.. see above

Gdansk was an Royal Free City (same like Kraków and others) the Kingdom being Kingdom of Poland!

so technically they we're in the kingdom.. it's one or the other but not both.

anyway its hardly Polish architecture hence the name -Mazovian Gothic !

where is mazowsze then?

here is another example of polish architecture: alternative4.blox.pl/resource/Rynek_Starego_Miasta_w_Warszawie.jpg

graceingdansk - | 24

4 Jul 2009 / #34

There's a book available called:
Beautiful Historic Gdansk ISBN 83-916078-4-4 Copyright Excalibur 2005
It's published under the auspices of the president of Gdansk and it has full history along with history of the architecture there.
I bought a copy at a local bookstore in Gdansk.
There is also a lot of this info on gdansk.com

scarbyirp

4 Jul 2009 / #35

I know this is going to be unpopular, but to me, Gdansk doesn't really feel Polish, like say Krakow or Lublin. I mean, it is Polish, in terms of its present population, but it's German/Hansa legacy is blatently obvious for all to see. Incidently, has anyone read the 'Tin Drum' by Gunter Grass?

plk123 8 | 4,138

4 Jul 2009 / #36

no, gdansk does not have a german feel to it at all.. have you even been in either gdansk or a german city?

scarbyirp

4 Jul 2009 / #37

have you even been in either gdansk

Yeah I live here. Been here over three years.

plk123 8 | 4,138

4 Jul 2009 / #38

well, i don't know where you get the german feel to it.. it definitely has a baltic feel to it as opposed to krakow or lublin or any other interior city.

kj3 - | 5

4 Jul 2009 / #39

I know this is going to be unpopular, but to me, Gdansk doesn't really feel Polish, like say Krakow

Kraków was a Hanza city

I mean, it is Polish, in terms of its present population, but it's German/Hansa legacy is blatently obvious for all to see.

It was not only German legacy

Sokrates 8 | 3,345

5 Jul 2009 / #40

but it's German/Hansa legacy is blatently obvious for all to see.

Its Polish/Commonwealth legacy is even more blatantly obvious given that more than 70% of standing historical sites are Polish built :)

Gdansk

See the large picture above the 4 smaller one? The entire town centre is filled with houses built according to Polish reneissance design, the town hall is Polish, the German presence is visible here and there but definitely not blatantly obvious, unless you're claiming that for a city with a Polish town centre and majority of Polish landmarks.

As for Hanza, you're forgiven since you're apparently clueless yet feel entitled to issue silly statements, you instantly associate Hansa with Germany, some of the major Hanseatic trade centres were Polish cities such as Kraków, Elbląg and Gdańsk, at the time all these cities had predominantly Polish popuations which results in their architecture being mostly Polish in design.

Hansa was an international league, it included mainly Sweden, Saxony and Poland.
But lets roll with your "blatantly obvious" pink elefants:)

scarbyirp

5 Jul 2009 / #41

70% of standing historical sites are Polish built

I bow to your superior knowledge; but I take it that you mean '70%....are Polish re-built'.

you instantly associate Hansa with Germany

Yes, the Hansa was a trading league of northern European cities that originated in the German town of Lübeck
I understand that "German colonists under strict Hansa supervision built numerous Hansa cities on and near the east Baltic coast, such as Danzig, Elbing, Thorn (Toruń).. Most were founded under Lübeck law (Lübisches Recht), which provided that they had to appeal in all legal matters to Lübeck's city council"

Perhaps you, or your pink elefant, would care to edit the relevant wikipedia page yourself ( quoting your sources of course) ?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hansa_League

OP Ironside 52 | 12,487

6 Jul 2009 / #42

As you know so much about the league, could you please name all of the cities in Finland, Norway and Russia (excluding Kaliningrad Oblast) which were in the league.

find it for yourself as you are great mind with even greater knowledge, I'm sure you will mange :)

Sokrates 8 | 3,345

6 Jul 2009 / #43

I bow to your superior knowledge; but I take it that you mean '70%....are Polish re-built'

No i mean originally Polish built, by Polish or Low Countries architects on Polish commisions, if you want we can do a count of all the major landmarks of Gdańsk together with their history, bar few they're built by Poles.

I understand that "German colonists under strict Hansa supervision built numerous Hansa cities

Like Kraków or Gdańsk? Oh wait they were buit by Poles, or maybe like Kaunas? Sorry that one was built by Lithuanians.

Thorn (Toruń)..

Toruń was a Polish city since early 1000s, taken over by Teutons for about 250 years it becomes Polish again in the 500s so another Polish built and inhabited city in the League.

Back to Gdańsk we can simply recount all the major marks in the city, just because you had the "impression" or because Germans claimed it as German doesnt make 2/3s of the old town any less Polish built.

Harry

6 Jul 2009 / #44

Sorry Ironside but I can not name the Hansa cities in Norway or Finland or Russia: for the very simple reason that there weren't any.

OP Ironside 52 | 12,487

6 Jul 2009 / #45

Maybe not but there was towns closely associated with Hansa...

Harry

7 Jul 2009 / #46

Ironside: so why did you say "the cities of the league even in Finland, Norway and Russia?" ? Oh, yes, it was because yet again you were lying and hoping that nobody with a superior knowledge of history would catch you out. Why not try NOT posting lies? Just for a change, just to see what it feels like. You might like not lying even more than you like lying about anything which could in any way be harmful for Poland!

Nathan 18 | 1,349

7 Jul 2009 / #47

you were lying and hoping that nobody with a superior knowledge of history would catch you out. Why not try NOT posting lies? Just for a change, just to see what it feels like. You might like not lying even more than you like lying about anything which could in any way be harmful for Poland!

It is called "Polish history", not a lie. ;)

OP Ironside 52 | 12,487

7 Jul 2009 / #48

Ironside: so why did you say "the cities of the league even in Finland, Norway and Russia?" !

Its academic Harry, cities of the league or cities associated with league what the difference does it make in general discussion on the Internet?
As for someone who is twisting facts and manipulating them to suit your agenda, you are darn quick to accuse others of lying :)
Do you get a kick out of it ?
Be frank just for once, to feel the difference!
:)

Nathan
What do you know about history:)

Nathan 18 | 1,349

7 Jul 2009 / #49

cities of the league or cities associated with league what the difference does it make

Or cities located on the shores of the same see or on the same planet - no.., there is no difference whatsoever. Actually right now I am writing in Polish with a Chinese accent, but everyone understands me - so.., not a big deal, it is the same.

Sokrates 8 | 3,345

7 Jul 2009 / #50

Maybe not but there was towns closely associated with Hansa...

Actually Ironside is both right and wrong, there were no Finnish, Russian or Norway cities within Hansa but there were cities granted same priveliges on account of being strategically placed on the trade routes, in this manner the difference is purely academic.

Novgorod for example operated within the bonduaries of the Haensatic league (i love how Wiki claims Hansa built some of the oldest Polish cities btw).

@Harriet, so yes there was a Russian city associated with and operating on the same principles as Hansa.

Harry

7 Jul 2009 / #51

Its academic Harry, cities of the league or cities associated with league what the difference does it make in general discussion on the Internet?

The difference is that you claimed there were League cities in Finland, Russia and Norway. In other words, you were lying (yet again).

As for someone who is twisting facts and manipulating them to suit your agenda, you are darn quick to accuse others of lying :)

I'm not accusing you of lying: I am stating the very clear fact that you were lying when you claimed there were League cities in Finland, Russia and Norway.

there were no Finnish, Russian or Norway cities within Hansa

Wow, you finally got something right! Well, I suppose it had to happen sooner or later.

but there were cities granted same priveliges on account of being strategically placed on the trade routes, in this manner the difference is purely academic.

Novgorod for example operated within the bonduaries of the Haensatic league (i love how Wiki claims Hansa built some of the oldest Polish cities btw).

Utter rubbish. You are talking about Kontore, counting houses. Those were trading posts the League established in non-League cities. If you want to say that Novgorod operated within the boundaries of the League, you have to say that London also operated within the boundaries of the League and even you wouldn't try to fly such complete bullsh!t.

OP Ironside 52 | 12,487

7 Jul 2009 / #52

The difference is that you claimed there were League cities in Finland, Russia and Norway. In other words, you were lying (yet again).

Close association with League is good enough to make my point that said League operated in many country's and a fact that Germanic towns formed a large part of the Hansa doesn't make all their towns German as Krakow was also part of the League.

What you claim to be lie is simply kind of abbreviation quite common in the general discussion,and you know it as well as me!

Harry

7 Jul 2009 / #53

If we look past your lie about the League having cities in Finland, Russia and Norway, we see the fundamental flaw in your argument. You seem to think that I claim the Hanseatic league was German: I have never said that. I said (and still say) that cities of the league were Free Imperial Cities, with the Empire being the Holy Roman Empire.

If you would like to continue lying about historical fact, please feel free to do so. I'll certainly feel very free to point out your lies!

Bratwurst Boy 10 | 11,789

7 Jul 2009 / #54

You seem to think that I claim the Hanseatic league was German: I have never said that. I said (and still say) that cities of the league were Free Imperial Cities, with the Empire being the Holy Roman Empire.

And the difference would be?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire

....The Holy Roman Empire (HRE; German: Heiliges Römisches Reich (HRR), Latin: Sacrum Romanum Imperium (SRI)) was a union of territories in Central Europe during the Middle Ages and the Early Modern period under a Holy Roman Emperor.
...
It was officially known as the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation (German: Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation, Latin: Sacrum Romanum Imperium Nationis Germanicæ) from the 16th century onwards....

About the free imperial cities: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_imperial_city

There are soooooo german! :)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Free_Imperial_Cities

Back to the Hanseatic League...
What don't you get about:

...The Hanseatic League (Hansa) was formed around the middle of the 12th century by German and Scandinavian seafaring merchants. Since there were no navies to protect their cargoes, no international bodies to regulate tariffs and trade, and few ports had regulatory authorities to manage their use, the merchants banded together to establish tariff agreements, provide for common defense and to make sure ports were safely maintained.

...Throughout the 13th century, the Hanseatic League remained an organization of merchants. To be more exact, it was an organization of German merchants.
Merchants who were not German and did not belong to the Hansa (so-called non-Germans were forbidden from joining the League) faced severe trade restrictions in the Baltic....

depts.washington.edu/baltic/papers/hansa.html

The EU can only hope to match the peace and wealth the Hanse once brought to Europe.
(But then again...both were/are mainly German driven so the chances are good) ;)

Back to Danzig and their Hanse history: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League#Expansion

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League#Expansion

The Hanse not german??? :)

Poland and the Hanse:

...Kraków, then the capital of Poland, was also a Hansa city with German burghers around 1500. The lack of customs borders on the River Vistula after 1466 helped to gradually increase Polish grain export, transported to the sea down the Vistula, from 10,000 t per year in the late 15th century to over 200,000 t in the 17th century.[6]

The Hansa-dominated maritime grain trade made Poland one of the main areas of its activity, helping Danzig to become the Hansa's largest city due to its control of Polish grain exports.

And now this:

...The member cities took responsibility for their own protecting.

Polish attempts at subjugating Danzig had to be fought off repeatedly.In 1567 a Hanseatic League Agreement reconfirms previous obligations and rights of League members, such as common protection and defense against enemies.

It begins:
Wir Burgermeister und Rethe der Teutschenn Hanse Stett Lubegk, Collen, Braunschweig und Dantzigk als Haupt und Quartier Stett tun kund[7] .

The german Hanse build Danzig, ruled Danzig and made Danzig rich...tourists even now admire the hanseatic architecture of renovated Danzig!

Period!

OP Ironside 52 | 12,487

7 Jul 2009 / #55

Yes? that make Krakow and Gdansk Free Imperial Cities ?
Do you know what you are talking about ?

The german Hanse build Danzig, ruled Danzig and made Danzig rich...tourists even now admire the hanseatic architecture of renovated Danzig!

german as german culture - culture of merchants - fine!
Not German as German nation and eine German culture !
Gdansk as a Royal Town of Polish Kingdom with their loyal subject germanic merchants combine Polish resources and protection and organization with germanic merchants to make monies and their international connections to import and export goods of the Polish Kingdom!

What you say on that BB?

Bratwurst Boy 10 | 11,789

7 Jul 2009 / #56

Gdansk as a Royal Town of Polish Kingdom with their loyal subject germanic merchants combine Polish resources and protection and organization with germanic merchants to make monies and their international connections to import and export goods of the Polish Kingdom!
What you say on that BB?

Great!

Torq

7 Jul 2009 / #57

*rolls eyes*

We have too talk to the French about that pre-emptive strike again ;)

Bratwurst Boy 10 | 11,789

7 Jul 2009 / #58

We have too talk to the French about that pre-emptive strike again ;)

Okay, okay...couldn't help myself!
No need to get the boots out!

Sokrates 8 | 3,345

8 Jul 2009 / #59

tourists even now admire the hanseatic architecture of renovated Danzig!

Like the Polish built Town Hall!

The german Hanse build Danzig, ruled Danzig and made Danzig rich

And then you woke up BB. If Hansa built Gdańsk how come Poles built a city called Gdańsk over 2 centuries before Hansa even surfaced? I know those were two different Gdańsk cities on two pararell earths!

That would explain it all, in the world you come from Germans built Gdańsk:))

Harry

8 Jul 2009 / #60

Like the Polish built Town Hall!

The accounting books from 1379 - 1382 contain information on the expenditures on building materials and works carried out in the Town Hall by the bricklayer Heinrich Ungeradin. The works concerned the reconstruction and extension of the building to the west.

Heinrich, that's a nice Polish name.

At the end of the 16th and beginning of the 17th century, this interior was decorated by artists of the golden age of Gdańsk arts, including such masters as: Izaak van den Block, Hans Vredeman de Vries, Willem van der Meer, Anton Moeller and Szymon Herle. Overall administration of the works was managed by Dutchman, Anton van Obberghen, who at the time held the position of town builder.

Izaak van den Block, Hans Vredeman de Vries, Willem van der Meer and Anton Moeller, all good Polish names. As is Anton van Obberghen. Oh bugger, they say he's Dutch.

The specific atmosphere of Gdańsk is also created by its bells. In 2000 a new outstanding 37-bell carillon was installed in the town hall tower The carillon was built by the Dutch bells and carillon manufacturer, Royal Eijsbouts in Asten.

Hmm, maybe Holland is actually part of Poland.

Or it could be that the source I use is rubbish
mhmg.gda.pl/international/?lang=eng&oddzial=1

The museum of the history of Gdansk? Who do they think they are! sokrates has told us that the Town Hall is Polish built. I demand they change their obviously false description of the history of the building!