"GANGING UP" ON POLAND?

Paranoia? ;)

Poland was geographically situated in the place most likely to be attacked.

Seanny is absolutely right. Just look at what could have happened in Yugoslavia under Kakadardevo. Milosevic and Tudjman with their carving knives at the ready :(

1jola: note that I speak about Ukrainians and their country, I do not mention the name Ukraine. Just as you do not mention the fact that one of the main reasons there was no country called Ukraine during the interbellum is because Poland stabbed her allies in the back and stole half their country.

"Jewish restitution claims" are just the next episode of the Holocaust Industry. The big lie spread around is that Poland don't want give back the properties/pay compensations when in fact everybody may go to the court and get It back. Thousands of such cases have been won by former owners and their heirs (both Jews and Goys) you may even find some of these people on PF. A famous case was the house JP2 was born in. After he died there was an idea to create a museum there and the house had to be bought from the Jewish owner (for 20 times of a normal value), who had got It back a few years earlier.

What these "Jewish NGOs" want are tens of billions $ to be paid them (for "needy Holocaust survivors" obviously...) as a compensation for all the property Jews owned here before WW2. And that's so ridiculous claim that one could wonder why anybody treat It seriously...

As for the connection between these claims and "Polish antisemitism"/"Polish death camps" etc. paranoia... Well there's no proof for that but why somebody shouldn't believe our "older brothers in faith" when they said openly that Poland will be "humiliated" until pays them ? Wouldn't that be antisemitic ?


I have ridiculed this claim a few month ago and you did what ? Run away from that topic... like a little disgusting, lying sad creature you are.

1jola: My reply related to the original post "ganging up on Poland" as above not to the subsequent posts below.


To which I have offered my opinion (below) as you have yours.


So IYO are all property-restitution claims, Jewish and non-Jewish, "ganging up on Poland" or is it just Jewish claims as (the only ones} highlighted in the original post?

Of course, you are wrong. There was not such country as Poland then as well. There was some resemblance of it, if you want, which was called Rzecz Pospolita or something like that, but no Poland, so you didn't exist 20 years ago according to your logic. "Solidarnosc" decided to create a country of Poland and here we come. You came out of a blue like we did. Cool.

Just for your general knowledge I will name you 20th century names of my country, not going back to the whole past millenium:
Ukrainian People's Republic 1917-1920
Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic 1922-1991
Ukraine 1991-Judgement Day
Was it called exactly "Ukraine" - word for word, of course not. Ukraine as country traces its origin to Kievan Rus' and Kiev, which was its capital since 5th century. Mongol's invasion and wars destroyed the country completely in 12-13th century. It split into many kingdoms and chiefdoms. One of them was Galycko-Wolynskie kingdom invaded by Polish kingdom in 1340 when capital city L'viv was robbed and burnt by Polish army. Since then it was a long and tough fight for independance through Hetmanate and Ukrainian Cossacks rebellions and wars. Eventually, step by step we got it.

Please, read a bit history and don't make arrogant remarks of something didn't exist just because you wish it didn't. It is a fate and we can't change it. I wish Poland wasn't our neighbor at the western border or Russia - at the eastern part. But I can't change it, right? I can't put Slovakia or Bielorus' at both ends just to cover both of ya. Well, I know it is impossible, but, at least, I have decency to respect your existance as such.

Relax, Nathan. No one is going to take your Ukraine from you. Kievan Rus was not Ukraine.


Kingdom of Poland, Rzeczpospolita Polska, yes, the existance of this nation is over one thousand years. Rzeczpospolita Polska means The Commonwealth of Poland, BTW.

Ukrainian flag and coat of arms are less than 100 years old. BTW, the coat of arms of your biggest national hero was Polish.

Not really. The first Rzeczpospolita existed before 1795, the 2nd in 1918-1939 and the 3rd one since late 1989. In commie era It was Polska Rzeczpospolita Ludowa.

Who is tense here? Just putting some info for those who are interested to know of Ukraine more than limited Polish 4th grade view that Ukraine suddenly appeared in 1991. ;)


As well as RP was not Poland, so what is the argument here? ;)

The Commonwealth of Poland was not Poland? We are getting into the absurd.


That's fine. Post some info on Ukraine if you like, but a country called Ukraine did appear in 1991. Before, it was a Russian, Polish, Soviet province. It's good that it is a country now and I am still shocked that the Russians let go of this prime real estate. Kicking out their fleet from your ports might be more difficult. Despite what some might think, Poland is on your side and has been engaged in its absorbsion into EU. There are some sore memories on both sides, but in Christian spirit both countries have tried to overcome the differences. I can tell you that it was a very moving outdoor reconciliation Mass three years ago in Warsaw, in which I participated, and your patriarchs were received with honors and respect by thousands.

Beyond that, I'm even more confused by the 'stabbed their Ukrainian allies in the back' part. 'Stabbed their hostile Ukrainian neighbors' doesn't really fit, either...

I've seen Harry mentioning this before but I haven't seen his explanation.

He probably means the 1921 Treaty of Riga.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Riga

Like we are getting absurd with 1991 for Ukraine, but you won't see it - it needs more spiritual and intelectual power. Ukrainian People's Republic is not Ukraine, Rzeczpospolita Polska is Poland, hmm... interesting. ;)


I think you are constantly in a comatose state, but somehow able to speak here.


I can only imagine how it was difficult for you. Ukrainians flocked like crazy when pope Jan Pawel ll came to Ukraine, millions and millions of people. Do I have to mention it here as well to show our respect and honors? I don't do it because it is not a theme of the conversation. Even after I presented you the facts from Ukrainian history which you can check even in Polish books, you still keep on throwing BS like a Pharasee and say that you pay honors etc. You have trouble to recognize a fact - not Ukrainian, not Polish, but worldwide excepted truth and you think that rant of some honors (through heart-screeching) will prove your point. You are mistaken. Nobody needs your honors. Just have a decency to answer my post #36 and points which you don't agree instead of soaping everybody's eyes. Truly yours, Nathan.

Thus you are ,,, my favorite fascist
Do not compare Poland and Ukraine.
There was no independent country such as Ukraine before 1991.
You are making fool of yourself claiming that some tales from fascist and obscure authors have some value and resemble something in shape of the fact!

I have never tried to persuade people attacking German tanks with horses or running from boxing ring in the 2nd round. It's useless.

So tell us, who attacked German tanks with horses?

That read in conjunction with the 1920 Treaty of Warsaw.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Warsaw_(1920)

This is a backstab par excellence and one which makes it even more baffling about why Poles of all people bang on and on and on about western betrayal!

what the fveck you are about ? haven't i sorted that issue with you before ?

anyway recent territorial gains it bit rich and most likely comes from some biased author , maybe Harry the Parrot ?

Yes, you have repeatedly claimed that Poland did not betray her Ukrainian allies. The problem for you is that the text of the treaty clearly shows that you are a liar.


How would you describe the successes of the Polish-Ukrainian war? Were they not recent? Were they not territorial gains?


I think not. But maybe Ironside the Ignorant of History?

As I never deny that treaty existed how it make me liar?
I asked you question how Poland could betray Ukraine while such country never existed before 1991 and you shrunk from answer:)
Did you know about this treaty yourself Harry the Parrot?
You did not? ):)))))))))
Anyway important in that case are circumstances - and they dictate that Poland didn't betray her Ukrainian allies!!!got that?


Its academical question but for people ignorant of real events it may sounds as if Poland invaded Ukraine.


hahahah........ bad parrot :)

No, he's right on this one. Violation of the Treaty of Riga was clear beyond doubt.
I'm a bit hazy on those events, so I'll have to look into the 'brutal policy of Polonisation' mentioned, but the 'backstabbing' is pretty clear.

That doesn't make you a liar. However the rest of the rubbish you spout does make you a liar.


As a matter of historical fact, a country called the Ukrainian People's Republic did exist before 1991. You would know that if you bothered to read about the Treaty of Warsaw. You would also know that in Article I of that treaty the government of Poland recognised the Ukrainian People's Republic as an independent state and the borders of the state were defined in Articles II and III. You would also know that Article IV thereof contained a commitment by both parties not to conclude any international agreements which would negatively impact the other party. And that Article V guaranteed certain rights of Ukrainians who would be left living in what was agreed to be Poland.


Of course I knew about it. That is why I posted about it!


Oh, I see, circumstances changed and that made it perfectly acceptable for Poland to **** all over the commitments it made in Article I, Article II, Article III, Article IV and Article V. Do you have any idea what the word 'commitment' means? How about the word 'promise'? Or the word 'ally'? How about the word 'honour' (although you clearly have none)?


Not quite: the Treaty of Riga violated the Treaty of Warsaw, not the other way round.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonisation#Second_Polish_Republic provides a good starting point. Look at what happened to Ukrainian churches and schools.

I know that Harry but 2 or 3 years of almost virtual existence - I don't call it much of the country.


yet again you are lying, if you knew about it you would posted a long time ago in our previous discussion on the subject!


Yes! Circumstances changed in such a way that it was impossible to keep commitments.
But Poland at last make a genuine effort to fulfill her obligations.
When British did not even bother to try and yet you are keen defender of their actions - how come that you slandering off Poland and at the same time you defend Britain ?

Because you enjoy laying about Poland and Poles ?
Maybe because you have no honor ?


you spread rubbish and lies Harry the Parrot and you know it!


No, he is not!

The government of Poland disagreed with you: they called it a country and signed a treaty with that country. Then they stabbed that country in the back.


I refer you back to January of this year, to post where I write "And while Poles love to point out what the UK did at Yalta, they are very quiet about why Pilsudski called the 1921 treaty of Riga an "act of cowardice". ... the 1920 Treaty of Warsaw"

Alternatively you can go back to February, to post where I say "Poland and Ukraine signed the treaty of Warsaw in 1920 in which Poland promised Ukraine that the countries would fight the Soviets together. Then, after the war was won, Poland promptly signed the treaty of Riga in 1921"

Or to April, to post where I say "Only you could take pride in the disgraceful backstab of an ally which Poland performed on Ukraine with the treaty of Riga."

Best of all, you can go back to last month to where I posted "Poland and Ukraine were on the same side during the Polish-Soviet war, that is why they signed the 1920 Treaty of Warsaw. Then in 1921 when the Soviets were beaten the Poles decided to stab their allies in the back and steal half of Ukraine, so they signed the Peace of Riga and did just that." That one is the best one because you yourself quoted it in post.

So not only did I know about both treaties, I posted about them and you know I posted about them. You've been caught lying yet again!


Promises are not dependent on 'circumstances'. Poland promised Ukraine many things in the treaty of Warsaw. And then it stabbed her Ukrainian allies in the back and stole half their country.


How is it slandering Poland to tell the truth about the actions of Poland?


Could you perhaps post a few of these lies? I've posted a couple of your lies today (both in this thread and the one about Gdansk).

As for honour, I won't take lessons in honour from a man who considers 'changed circumstances' sufficient grounds for stabbing an ally in the back.


As stated above: quote those lies. I'm happy to keep quoting your lies.


Could you perhaps point out how I am not right? Poland stabbed her Ukrainian allies in the back, it's that simple.

I mean why didn't you post the text of the treaty before?
Well, maybe I have forgotten that you actually write about WT as it is much you said I'm not bother with!


Its call politics Harry, its sounds better then treaty with "Petrula and his two division who claim to be head of Ukrainian state nobody heard before"!


So what about Britain and their promises ?


By not telling the full true but only that part which can show Poland in the bad light !


I could but I cannot be bother .....


I'm not even attempting to teach you anything, you are past redemption ...


Or what you call lies, and is only thing that make you happy - very sad Harry!


Poland attempted to fight for independent Ukrainian state but her Ukrainian allies haven't been supported by Ukrainian population and recruitment to Ukrainian army proved it without doubt.

Poland on its own wasn't able to build first independent Ukraine state ever - it wouldn't be independent state would be?

Right, thanks. That's what I meant to type (really!), except that I haven't been thinking too well as of late. I can survive harsh training conditions, food rationing, dehydration, heat, exhaustion to the point of muscle failure, any psychological trauma I've ever been exposed to... except lack of sleep. Interrogation would probably fail on me, so long as nobody ever thinks to try extended periods of sleep deprivation. =(


Thing is, the Polish government did, and made such recognition clear and binding in the Treaty of Warsaw. The writing was very clear: According to all parties involved, an independent Ukrainian nation existed, with defined borders and a right to sovereignty. The writing was also clear on that no separate peace was to be made by one party to the disadvantage of another. Poland did exactly that, which easily constitutes a very cold, hard betrayal. Whether Poland made this decision before or after the signing of the Treaty of Warsaw (when 'circumstances changed') is a matter of little consequence.

If Harry were putting a misleading twist on the truth, or telling only part of it, I assure you that I'd only be all too ready to call him on it. Because I'm not here to participate in a propaganda war; I'm here to discuss Polish Politics and History, and try to see it done as accurately, informatively, and thoroughly as possible. And while I am a Pole, and I do enjoy reading good things about my country more than I do bad, I also value a harsh truth over a pleasant fantasy. So, let's not argue the facts: Poland signed a treaty with the Ukrainians. They then went back on that treaty in such a way as to screw those people over. Overall, I think, Poland's history presents more favorable an image than most, but it's a fairy-tale Poland which has done no wrong in all its existence.

So, I'm not here 'taking sides' on whatever agenda battles may be happening on these forums at this time, but Harry is definitely right here. There's no question about it. He is correct in judging the Polish violation of the Treaty of Warsaw as a betrayal practically a textbook example of 'betrayal' both de jure and de facto. A Harvard Lit professor couldn't construct what appeared to be an effective argument against this fact.

What I didn't find, though, Harry, was the Polonisation procedure as having been what is well described as 'brutal'. Pretty harsh, yes, and by no means something to be supported, but 'brutal' implies 'violent'. And if I recall correctly (which I think I do, though it's hard for me to keep my eyes - er, think right now), the German kulturkampf and Russia's attempted eradication of Polish culture and identity were far worse during those oft-mentioned 200 years of occupation.

This is from another thread running at the same time. You're on the roll. If you can add "Polish concentration camps," "Polish anti-Semitism," "Polish Nazi collaboration,"you'll have all your favorite topics all at once.

But do explain what you mean by your statement above.

Would you, please, expand on German Kulturkampf and how it was more violent than what Poles did in Ukraine, Bielorus' and Lithuania in 1920-1939. Just show some examples.

a) Too easy! How many men who fought alongside Polish forces ended up in the interbellum Polish concentration camp? (Or the place-set-up-at-the-suggestion-of-Goering-(who-had-instigated-such-a-c enter-at-Dachau)-where-people-are-held-indefinitely-without-charge-or- trial-and-are-held-70-to-a-cell-and-frequently-tortured-but-this-isn’t -a-concentration’ camp, as you'd no doubt prefer me to describe it).

b) Tricky: Ukrainians are exactly known for their tolerant attitudes when it comes to Jews.
c) Impossible: the Nazis didn't even exist when Poland performed the back-stab in question.


The explanation is now in the thread in question.

Normally, I'd whip out the Davies, but those volumes are currently on loan to a friend, and the free online edition of Volume II has disappeared from Google Books (replaced with a 16-page preview of a newer version, as I finally accepted after an extended web search), so I deeply apologize for having to settle for this half-assed, lame Wikipedia quote:


Of course I don't need to get in to how the Russians were far worse.

Harry


Not quite: