I had a jewish friend tell me that pope john pauls mother was a jew. I saw a picture of her and she does have semetic features. The article also stated that john pauls father and family didn't carry anti-semetic views like alote of the polish at the time.
The Wojtylas were strict Catholics, but did not share the anti-Semitic views of many Poles. One of Lolek's playmates was Jerzy Kluger, a Jew who many years later would play a key role as a go-between for John Paul II and Israeli officials when the Vatican extended long-overdue diplomatic recognition to Israel
Kluger told The New York Times that he spent many afternoons sitting in the kitchen next to the Wojtylas' coal stove listening to Lolek's father tell stories about Greece, Rome and Poland.
Lolek, in turn, went to the Klugers' 10-room apartment overlooking the town square and listened to music performed by a string quartet composed of two Jews and two Catholics.
"The people in the Vatican do not know Jews, and previous popes did not know Jews," Kluger told the Times. "But this pope is a friend of the Jewish people because he knows Jewish people."
Indeed, Wojtyla became the first pope to visit a synagogue and the first to visit the memorial at Auschwitz to victims of the Holocaust. In ending the Catholic-Jewish estrangement, he called Jews "our elder brothers."
Well, I read many such "personal experiences" and let me have some doubts about many of them. For example I read once a speech of some "Holocaust survivor" given in some American school, that was a woman, who was a child during WW2 and she claims that when Germans came for them, she somehow escaped, but no Poles wanted to help her, so... she lived alone in a forest for 3 years - anybody who spent winter in Poland knows that It's simply not possible, especially in case of a child.
It doesn't sound realistic for child to survive for 3 years without any help.
About helping Jews- My mum was telling me that one day during war jewman knocked my grandparents' door and ask my grandad to show him the way (go with him to another town) when somweone was waiting for him. He wanted to pay for it . My grandad was tempted to go with him by my grandmother stopped him. She said you have 3 little children if Germans catch you they will kill you and us. My grandad didn't go.Maybe he felt little guilty....but during war these were moral choices.I suppose that many Polish were eager to help Jews just not everyone was so brave and heroic.
Frank Can you explain your interest in this matter?
Can I ask also was the Irish Government in the second world war pro German and anti Jewish?
Lef, the war has always been of interest, plus as I've been to Poland 3 times in the last year, its something I wanted to understand better. Our own history books at school were very skimpy on details regarding Poland itself and the relatively huge jewish population.
Ireland didn't cover itself in glory during WWII in many peoples eyes, but you have to remember, it fought a war of independence against Britian and civil war just 15yrs before and they didn't want to become involved with Britain at any level during the war.
There was tacit co-operation though with Britain....but very reluctantly....as for how they interacted with Germany, I am not wholly sure; certainly during WWI the germans supplied arms to the Irish to fight the british....the understanding was, "any enemy of britains was our friend"....!!!...that was how it was percieved at the time
As I have stated 10s of thousands did volunteer to fight in British forces throughout the war, including two of my uncles.
The Irish Republic has no monuments to the thoudands of brave Irish who died fighting the Nazi threat. Why is that?
An interesting little anecdote here.
My wife's great uncle was a bit of a "wide boy" who managed to keep a successful private business going throughout the Stalinist era and beyond. OK, although he was an AK leader in his country district with Communist "friends" no-one could work out where he got his protection from ... until he decided to tell his story on his deathbed 5 years ago. He hid a Jew all through the war, and that Jew went on to become a high-ranking security apparatchik who felt a debt of gratitude towards his friend and saviour.
Of course, the favours didn't all go one way after the war - the relationship favoured both parties. Business is business, but the link was forged in wartime.
Moreover, without going into detail, the Kaczynskis' idea that lustracja will rid Polish public life of its Communist hangover is wrong-minded, as that man's grandchildren are still benefiting from the "virtues/sins" of their grandfather.
Bojownik, be carefull some countries have laws that prevent you from questioning the holocaust. What you just said can land you in prison.
I say that in a joking way even though it is true. Everything you said is 100% True, but you are not allowed to question it in many European Countries including Poland. That really makes me wonder , why would they not allow us to deny or even study it. Is it because they know that 6 million people never died and want to silence us about it so they can keep grabbing more and more money?
Perhaps it's a question of numbers that's at issue here. No reasonable person would call you anti-semitic for saying 5 million died instead of 6. The holocaust happened. 6 million Poles died, of which half were Jews. You could argue the numbers of course. Profiteering by lawyers continues to happen. Dishonest politicking happens too. Liars and extremists aren't in short supply either.
I am Questioning the possibility of 6 million jews dying.
Possibility......what that none died at all?...or just 5 or just 4.......million.....?
The figure can never be totally accurate due to the huge overall number, brilliant as Germans were at keeping records, I don't know how much survived the war.
Is it because they know that 6 million people never died and want to silence us about it so they can keep grabbing more and more money?
Who can grab more money.......the Jewish population or the Polish government?
If the former and you are querying the number of Jews murdered then , your view is anti-semitic!
Has anyone queried the huge numbers of Polish people killed?...20% of the population...can this ever be totally verified too?
Then why seek to query the number of Jews murdered?
I don't want to bite into this arguement as a great evil has been done at these concentration camps, I just make one point, when I last visited the auswitcz concentration camp some 3years ago, I purchased a book at the bookshop written by a polish person, who has researched the claim of 6 million people being killed, He has concluded that the 6 million figure is impossible, more likely if my memory serves me right it was approximately 3.5 million.
Aint an argument....its just diverse views..........some rationale, some not!!....nevertheless genocide was attempted on one race of people by another........and whole WWII was a "cover" to allow them to carry out the same............thoughts?
and whole WWII was a "cover" to allow them to carry out the same............thoughts?
interesting thought.... the words paranioa and conspiracy theory springs to mind immediately... which suits me down to the ground... :)
i am off to the pub for one last binge before starting my new year detox... whilst supping on a pint or two of the finest hampshire ale i shall mull your suggestion and respond later... or just totally forget about it and concentrate on beating people at pool... time will tell... :)
lef is right. When I was at the camp the guide gave a similar figure. But only in relation to Auschwitz. It was explained to me that the Germans had problems disposing of 3,000,000 bodies. 6,000,000 would be impossible.
Are we talking about just Auschwitz..or all Polish camps or the total number of camps in Europe, no one individual or country would have had access to all those documents.
