Return PolishForums LIVE
  PolishForums Archive :
Archives - 2005-2009 / History  % width 520

Jews...and their Polish experience


OP Frank 23 | 1183  
1 Jan 2007 /  #31
Grzegorz_...a big thanks for that fulsome and hopefully useful post , to both me and other board users.

I am only trying to cut through, the hype, propaganda, one off experiences and denial that encircles our lives, and indeed history in general.

when they were persecuted in the most of Western Europe

This I am aware of........as indeed where other faiths in Eurpoe over many centuries.

they even got special rights

Didn't know this.....why, what were they...how did the local population react?

Jews not only weren't patriotic, usually they didn't even bother to learn the language and assimilate

So, the populace and government, church though it ok to be anti-semitic? Or....more complex....

If you ask If there was anti-semitism in Poland, the answer can't be other than yes

This is what I am trying to ascertain...ie are the history books correct, or selective.....was/is this taught in schools?

Unfortunately many Jews (especially American) today is spreading anti-Polish propaganda, which especially in case of WW2 and a country, which lost the most and a nation, which suffered less than only Jews and Gypsies is shocking and simply disgusting.

Why is this......what has your governement, media done to correct or bolster their own view?..........

so of course he "forgot"

I only quoted a small part of a review...so don't condemn him on this. His personal experience is as valuable and useful as anyone elses...frequently...more useful, as he isn't a full blown historian/government figure.

when mr. owner came back and wanted to have a large house only for himself ?

I can see your point...but another wrong...won't make it any better or right.....!!

Please fill us in on other points or queries I raised...I want to understand...and welcome other views....:)
Babylon 16 | 192  
1 Jan 2007 /  #32
Attack on Rabi:

Some Pole screamed at him: "Polska dla Polaków", and after that he punched him, one single shot and not so much heavy. After 10 seconds the Pole run away, and the Jew was chasing him for a few meters. The same day Rabbi is on TVN24 - the best Polish TV and widely reported about this, President said: "In Poland there is no place for Anti-JUDAISM". The Pole was prisoned very fast.

I'm wondering if GYPSY can count the same if they will be attack by Polish Rascal?
ANIAH - | 60  
1 Jan 2007 /  #33
And to this I would add: has anyone ever known a poor Jew? Wedel the most famous chocolate company in Poland was owned by a Jew (now owned by Cadbury).
OP Frank 23 | 1183  
1 Jan 2007 /  #34
This post isn't even worth comment on...laughable.......

Attack on Rabi:

So you'd be equally dismissive of a Catholic priest being attacked....?....breathtaking....!
ANIAH - | 60  
1 Jan 2007 /  #35
and why exactly is it laughable? And can you please stop using so many punctuaction marks in your posts or ...................is that...............an Irish thing??????????.....)))????

perhaps you are hiccuping when you type?
OP Frank 23 | 1183  
1 Jan 2007 /  #36
Not at all...its a spurious...racist, anti-semitic comment.....typical of the poster...
ANIAH - | 60  
1 Jan 2007 /  #37
No decent human being would condone attacks on another human being and I certainly do not approve of anyone attacking Jews, whatever their status or financial situation. However, it is a fact that Jews are normally clever, talented and industrious people and you would be hard pressed to find a poor Jew. Therefore the ones claiming the houses back after WWII were certainly not poor either.

Racist? Don;t make it laugh. My best friend is Jewish. Idiot.
iwona 12 | 542  
1 Jan 2007 /  #38
It is nothing wrong with Jews to be poor- they usually work hard for it.
ANIAH - | 60  
1 Jan 2007 /  #39
.......................errrr..............oh.......................... .......ermm.............OK...Frank
OP Frank 23 | 1183  
1 Jan 2007 /  #40
However, it is a fact that Jews are normally clever, talented and industrious people

Another racist comment............really you're quite removed from reality...aren't you....

My best friend is Jewish

He/she doesnt need any enemies then....

It is nothing wrong with Jews to be poor- they usually work hard for it.

....aww....you wasted all your time posting this......
iwona 12 | 542  
1 Jan 2007 /  #41
So you'd be equally dismissive of a Catholic priest being attacked....?....breathtaking....!

Frank,

You take things bit out od context. Yes it was racist attack but how many racists attacks of BNP supporter happened in Uk...? .shoutling England for English? I would guess quite a few.

Each country has these kind of people - very right racist wing. But as it happened that it was jewish rabin- it got blown out of proportion. POLISH SUCH A RACIST NATION:(

Frank,

Are you Dr jekyll and me Hyde? .....from your over tolerant boring pose to very rude and unpleasant one.

But your are just little boring moron playing some tolerant poses.
ANIAH - | 60  
1 Jan 2007 /  #42
Frank, I think you have been on the booze. Ease off, will you, and stop attacking us. Why do you come on here again? I mean what is your Polish connection?
OP Frank 23 | 1183  
1 Jan 2007 /  #43
But as it happened that it was jewish rabin- it got blown out of proportion.

Why...though.....?...who did the blowing out of proportion? He's a religious man, holy - who should be held in esteem, but was attacked...I would expect the same reporting on anyone who holds such a position....catholic, protestant etc.

POLISH SUCH A RACIST NATION

I was only refering to anti-semitic sentiments....

from your over tolerant boring pose to very rude and unpleasant one

You're having a laugh..........

But your are just little boring moron playing some tolerant poses

And any of your arguments are infantile...typical of someone who isn't able to debate, argue, answer queries in a reasonable fashion....

Frank, I think you have been on the booze. Ease off, will you, and stop attacking us. Why do you come on here again? I mean what is your Polish connection?

Free speech....if you feel attacked....it wasn't me.......got a guilt complex...?
iwona 12 | 542  
1 Jan 2007 /  #44
And any of your arguments are infantile...typical of someone who isn't able to debate, argue, answer queries in a reasonable fashion....

You answers are reasonable.....:)

You are very boring person....sad to say this.....

no sense of humour, boring with lots.......which mean nothing.....and rude.
OP Frank 23 | 1183  
1 Jan 2007 /  #45
You are very boring person....sad to say this.....

no sense of humour, boring with lots.......which mean nothing.....and rude.

Lol.....well needless to say you're way off target...wonder who were you aiming at........perhaps it was a boomerang shot..and its rebounded back to you?

Are you going to make any contribution to my questions or just sulk....come on Iwona you can do better........am always willing to give people a chance to redeem themselves......
iwona 12 | 542  
1 Jan 2007 /  #46
You attacked me first. I never start personal attacks at people -it is very low- but when attacked I get angry.

Grzegorz post was very sensible and reasonable -it is not much to add.
I don't have anything against Jews they are hard working people and yes lots of them are rich but they work hard for it.I respect it. But...some poeple are jealous and don't like it.

Of course Rabi is holy person who should be hold in esteem...the same like catholic priest...pastor....but I would be careful at these descriptions. What is the difference between Rabi being attacked and some old foreign lady being attacked? - both attacks are based on racist attitude.No jsutification for it.

What grzegorz said:
Unfortunately many Jews (especially American) today is spreading anti-Polish propaganda, which especially in case of WW2 and a country, which lost the most and a nation, which suffered less than only Jews and Gypsies is shocking and simply disgusting.

It is true. How many foreign people are racially offended or pushed in London every day?
But PROPAGANDA- makes one accident to be bigger that other.

The problem with some jews is that they like to make themselves to be always seen as victims.I don't know why? I guess it is something connected with their history, problems with no having their own country...
OP Frank 23 | 1183  
1 Jan 2007 /  #47
It is nothing wrong with Jews to be poor- they usually work hard for it.

I found this unworthy of you iwona and surprised that you made it......or did I mis-construe it?...perhaps I got angry?...?

Thank you for your follow up contribution,

What is the difference between Rabi being attacked and some old foreign lady being attacked

Again, must assume this man was recognisable as a Rabbi...ergo attacking a leader/symbol of that faith.....ergo seen as an attack on all things/aspects of that faith.......totally anti-semitic in origin.....?

The problem with some jews is that they like to make themselves to be always seen as victims

I don't know how true this is........they have asaying in Israel...."never again"........referring to the holocaust and how they were virtually wiped off the face of European map...understandable!

Thank you Iwona...:)
iwona 12 | 542  
1 Jan 2007 /  #48
found this unworthy of you iwona and surprised that you made it......or did I mis-construe it?...perhaps I got angry?...?

It was my fault, my grammar structure of this sentence was bad- I meant to say that they are rich but they work hard for it. For us polish it is second language so sometimes we we made stupid mistakes.

The problem with some jews is that they like to make themselves to be always seen as victims

I think that they are a little similar to polish. Their history is rather sad and in our past we were so many times invaded by our neighbours ....that is why we can feel sometimes a bit like a victims.
ola123  
1 Jan 2007 /  #49
Frank how about your countrymen that attack Polish immigrants and their children, they are so scared that they send their childred to catholic schools with....police! And at times Irish thow something and abuse Polish childeren that go to school. Polish people that come to Ireland are often attacked for being catholic, at times they are afraid to go outside. It happens now in your country, in Poland any foreigner is not treated like that.

You being Irish how dare you saying us about racism?

First look at your sins before you point finger at other nation.

You didnt come here to discuss, you come here to accuse and stick little pins in every post you write.
OP Frank 23 | 1183  
1 Jan 2007 /  #50
about your countrymen that attack Polish immigrants and their children

Yes I agree...this is unacceptable..and I hate to see it happen........its usually when Catholic Polish people have moved into Protestant areas when NO catholics are tolerated full stop...so your countrymen need to do some research before they arrive.....

This history goes back to the Normans...in 1170...then more recently......16th century when tens of thousands of people from Scotland, England effectively took over all the land of use, in Ireland....

You being Irish how dare you saying us about racism?

Nope...have not done this... I asked about anti-semitism...only....look closer at my post...Ola...out of context...mis-representing me...again....!!!!

You didnt come here to discuss, you come here to accuse and stick little pins in every post you write.

And...no...afraid you got this wrong too........am asking for info, experiences...read my first post again....please Ola......
Wroclaw 44 | 5359  
1 Jan 2007 /  #51
Can I just say something here.

Frank, you asked about Jews in the early part of the last century. This was a time of partition in Poland. I'm sure that you are aware of this so please don't shout me down.

The area that most Jewish people lived in was south-east Poland. But not the Poland we know today. The Jewish population extended into what is now Ukraine. This poses a problem when answering part of your question. Neither the people nor the country exist as they did then. So any opinion would be second hand.

Cardinal Glemp has been very vocal against the Jews and at one point had to be told by John Paul II to apologise for past indisgretions against Polish Jews. I have already provided a link regarding this, but on another thread.

Whether we like it or not, Polish Jews were dicriminated against in the past.

There is no need to discriminate against them now, because most people in Poland have never knowingly met one. Take post #24 as a reference.

Aniah,

Post #44

The Jewish people are well known for building up a community and helping each other out with regard to business. They very often would trade with each other within their community. This is what local people might have used as a starting point when saying anything negative against these people. Also, as these people gained wealth it would show up in the resentment of others in times of poverty. As a nation were the Polish anti-semetic ? I doubt it. Nowadays we are all , hopefully, better people living in a world where we can all get along.

I also doubt very much that many people would have considered themselves wealthy at the end of World War II. Most people whatever their religion only had the clothes they stood up in and nothing else.
OP Frank 23 | 1183  
1 Jan 2007 /  #52
It was my fault, my grammar structure of this sentence was bad- I meant to say that they are rich but they work hard for it. For us polish it is second language so sometimes we we made stupid mistakes.

Glad we cleared this up Iwona.......no problem...and as I don't speak Polish...how can I condemn you for making a grammatical mistake ????....:)

that is why we can feel sometimes a bit like a victims.

Its a common response...no one wants to be a victim again......best form of defence is attack...true?

Tell it to the Irish......its on our passports.....!!!

I'm sure that you are aware of this so please don't shout me down.

W...would I ever.....lol.....and no I didn't know...ta for that.....

Whether we like it or not, Polish Jews were dicriminated against in the past.

This is what I wanted to clarify......come to understand...why, how, where...was it purely a local response...or people told to be that way...ie obeying dictats of church or state?
Wroclaw 44 | 5359  
1 Jan 2007 /  #53
This is what I wanted to clarify......come to understand...why, how, where...was it purely a local response...or people told to be that way...ie obeying dictats of church or state?

Just asked the family. The answer. Um, don't really know.
OP Frank 23 | 1183  
1 Jan 2007 /  #54
Hhhhhmmmmmmmm...................but did you ask the right question W....?

Am pullin' your leg..........!

Much snow there?
Wroclaw 44 | 5359  
1 Jan 2007 /  #55
No snow. It's too warm.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6146  
1 Jan 2007 /  #56
Quoting: Grzegorz_, Post #35
they even got special rights

Didn't know this.....why, what were they...how did the local population react?

I was studing a bit the issue, but am not any any expert... why ? Probably to make more of them come here as Poland needed more people. What right ? There were some, I think that at least for some time only Jews could own karczmy - a kind of bars/restaurants.

So, the populace and government, church though it ok to be anti-semitic? Or....more complex....

For most of time I was talking about there wasn't any Polish government, after Poland regained independence in 1918 the government definately wasn't anti-semitic, but after Piłsudski died in 1935 and quite radical politicians took over the government there were even a few anti-semitic laws passed, like limited access to the university education for Jews, but on the other hand someone could say that far worse things were going on in the southern states until 60's/70's. What the Catholic church thought about that ? I don't think that the church in general was "promoting anti-semitism", however of course there was a kind of "competition" and even now there are problems between religions, even between branches of Christianity. What the people thought ? These more patriotic oriented rather didn't like Jews, but rather not for who they were, but for what most of them were doing - didn't want to assimilate, often worked for invaders etc.

This is what I am trying to ascertain...ie are the history books correct, or selective.....was/is this taught in schools?

You mean in Polish schools ? Rather not, but people know that there were some problems and most are not so naive to think that all Poles were innocent and brave and that all Jews were bad. If you mean western history books, they usually show some bad things done by Poles without a wider context as a prove of "vast Polish anti-semitism". Why ? Because most of these "Holocaust studies" and such things are run by Jews and they are simply biased, other authors are usually quoting them and use their "reaserches" in own publications.

Why is this......what has your governement, media done to correct or bolster their own view?..........

And what can they do about It ? I was talking about things many Jews are unfortunately "promoting" in foreign states, especially USA and Canada.

I only quoted a small part of a review...so don't condemn him on this. His personal experience is as valuable and useful as anyone elses...frequently...more useful, as he isn't a full blown historian/government figure.

Well, I read many such "personal experiences" and let me have some doubts about many of them. For example I read once a speech of some "Holocaust survivor" given in some American school, that was a woman, who was a child during WW2 and she claims that when Germans came for them, she somehow escaped, but no Poles wanted to help her, so... she lived alone in a forest for 3 years - anybody who spent winter in Poland knows that It's simply not possible, especially in case of a child.

I can see your point...but another wrong...won't make it any better or right.....!!

Come on. You or me would do the same.

And to this I would add: has anyone ever known a poor Jew?

I'm 1/8 Jew and not rich unforunately. Maybe because 7/8 is that bad and "anti-semitic", that's why my "brothers" don't want to help me. :)

So you'd be equally dismissive of a Catholic priest being attacked....?....breathtaking....!

The point is that If a Catholic priest were attacked, you wouldn't hear about that and that means something.
OP Frank 23 | 1183  
1 Jan 2007 /  #57
You or me would do the same.

Gee...G...you're not second guessing me in a flight or fight situation?....:)

Thanks for all those points, clarification of issues...its certainly filling in the blank spaces, giving a broader oversight of what did take place....etc

Because most of these "Holocaust studies" and such things are run by Jews and they are simply biased, other authors are usually quoting them and use their "reaserches" in own publications

Maybe so, but all inputs/research is useful...then we have to seek a balanced view of all accounts, ...make our own minds up.

after Piłsudski died in 1935 and quite radical politicians took over the government there were even a few anti-semitic laws passed

Where they fascists...or no-one objected...?
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6146  
1 Jan 2007 /  #58
Where they fascists...or no-one objected...?

No. Although some now call even Bush a fascist... Who objected ? Poles ? I think that It was a pretty much controversial thing.
ANIAH - | 60  
1 Jan 2007 /  #59
Well, I read many such "personal experiences" and let me have some doubts about many of them. For example I read once a speech of some "Holocaust survivor" given in some American school, that was a woman, who was a child during WW2 and she claims that when Germans came for them, she somehow escaped, but no Poles wanted to help her, so... she lived alone in a forest for 3 years - anybody who spent winter in Poland knows that It's simply not possible, especially in case of a child.

The price for helping a Jew in WWII was death, not just for the person involved but his whoel family. The Nazis did not make empty threats. What would the Jewish woman do if she found herself in this position? Sacrifice her children for a stranger? I think not.

In spite of the dangers, many Poles did help Jews in the war.

In winter it is common to get to -10 C or even -20 C. How would this woman survive in a forest? I think there are parts of this story she is not telling or have been misinterpreted along the way.
lef 11 | 477  
1 Jan 2007 /  #60
Frank Can you explain your interest in this matter?

Can I ask also was the Irish Government in the second world war pro German and anti Jewish?

Archives - 2005-2009 / History / Jews...and their Polish experienceArchived