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Jewish love towards Poles


isthatu 3 | 1,164  
11 Jan 2008 /  #151
Deal.
But seriously,I know the bombing may have prevented the Hungarian jews from their fate,and also the Roma etc,but,surly the nazis would have just found another "solotion"?After all,they didnt need such sofisticated methods to wipe out the "soviet" jews ,Im thinking Grannies gorge et al.

But,sorry,bombing raids deeper than Auschwitz,not really,on a grand scale,exept maybe say the romanian oil feilds.Just look at the percentage of RAF bombers brought down in the op tempest resupply missions.
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
11 Jan 2008 /  #152
I know the bombing may have prevented the Hungarian jews from their fate

I think in this respect I have a feeling that Hungarian Jews could have been helped prior to them being deported to Auschwitz. Have you read "Eichman in Jerusalem"?. The author was called a "sef-hating Jew" for that book. It is based on facts.

I agree that bombings would have not prevented all the killings, but it would certainly seroisuly disrupt them. Maybe a million Jews would have been save, maybe only 100,000. However calous it may sound, there is after all a sort of life and death economy. Someone one sacrifices a few to save many.

Who knows, perhaps Jews would be then more in a position to join the Polish underground. But that's just speculaton.

As for the RAF casualties, well... war is war, so of course there would be killed pilots. Brits participated in the fighting to liberate some on the continent (more than one actually), but also those from the other continents sacrificed their lives for the Brits.
OP southern 75 | 7,096  
11 Jan 2008 /  #153
At the same time the allies were bombing German industrial installations which were located deeper inside the occupied territories than Auschwitz

Where do you mean?B-29s from France could not even reach Warsaw in September 1944 without having to land in russian occupied teritorry.
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
11 Jan 2008 /  #154
The Allies were reguraly bombing some oil refineries not far Auschwitz in the summer and fall of 1944. On Dec. 26 1944 McGovern's squadron dropped 50 tons of bombs on oil facilities in Monowitz, an industrial section of Auschwitz.
OP southern 75 | 7,096  
11 Jan 2008 /  #155
On Dec. 26 1944

On Dec 26 allied troops had already reached Belgium.Moreover oil facilities were a far more crucial military target,it had to do with german ability to move tanks in Ardennes.

Maybe planes could hit Auschwitz coming from Italy after the collapse of Gustav line.
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
11 Jan 2008 /  #156
The decision not to bomb Auschwitz seems to have little to do with what was more crucial or not.General George Patton even diverted U.S. troops to rescue 150 Lippizaner horses in Austria.

But don't take my word for any of the above. Read an article based on someone who was actually there. He was a US Senator in 1960's/1970's and he was a pilot flying over the area:

judaism.about.com/od/holocaust/a/aush_nobomb.htm

Read the whole article.
isthatu 3 | 1,164  
12 Jan 2008 /  #157
Hungarian Jews could have been helped prior to them being deported to Auschwitz.

Yes,there were many deals being brokered around this,unfortunatly I dont think the allies would ever have been prepered to trade war equipment for a few thousand lucky(specificaly also rich/conected or "special" such as artists musicians etc) refugees. I havent read the book,but Im guessing we may have studied the same topics if not the exact same sources(ie,the lottery of just who the "head" jewsish fellas thought worthy of saving?)

I agree that bombings would have not prevented all the killings, but it would certainly seroisuly disrupt them.

Agreed, its just unfortunate that the cheifs of the allied airforces wernt quite the humanitarians you and I are. Harris knew what he wanted and was determined to get it without diversion.

Someone one sacrifices a few to save many.

The 55thousand dead RAF bomber command crewmen can testify to that.

but also those from the other continents sacrificed their lives for the Brits.

not to get drawn in/diverted,but,from "other continents" Im assuming you mean say Canada,Australia New Zealand? Yes,many many thousands of brave young lads did volunteer for the RAF or RAAF RCAF etc ,but,the situation at the time was that those countries felt far greater ties to Britain than they may do now so this was seen as fighting for the "mother country" as odd as that seems in this day and age.

B-29s from France could not even reach Warsaw in September 1944

B17 actually,B29s were only serving in the Far East during the war.

Dec. 26 1944 McGovern's squadron dropped 50 tons of bombs on oil facilities in Monowitz

Yes,and killed a few British army POW/slave workers at the Bune werk(just mention that because surprisingly few people realise that there were many British POWS at auschwitz.)
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389  
12 Jan 2008 /  #158
I think in this respect I have a feeling that Hungarian Jews could have been helped prior to them being deported to Auschwitz. Have you read "Eichman in Jerusalem"?. The author was called a "sef-hating Jew" for that book. It is based on facts.

A Pact Against Hungary's Jews (link?)

FYI: Eichmann was Jewish.
isthatu 3 | 1,164  
12 Jan 2008 /  #159
"and then you had to go and spoil it all by saying something foolish like....

Eichmann was Jewish.

The rest of the post,surprisingly I cant argue with. Why do you feel the need to embelish even the truth with silly,absurd statements like that? It just lumps you in with David Irvine and other loonies who are so easily proved fantasists.
OP southern 75 | 7,096  
12 Jan 2008 /  #160
I have to add here the black humor of Goering when he was informed that a hungarian Jew would testify against him in Nureneberg trial.

Goering told the judges:''Hungarian Jew?How is it possible?I thought we had exterminated all of them.''
WAKEUPPOLAND2 - | 35  
12 Jan 2008 /  #161
LETS GET BACK TO THE TOPIC. Southern, I agree with you, and so did Henry Ford and Benjamin Franklin amongst others.....

They have been kicked out throughout history and hated by the people of the countries they sucked dry...

This is why they were expelled from most European Kingdoms before the middle ages. Shelley S ask yourself why ?

Below is a URL containing list from Jewish persecution source:
P.E. Grosser & E.G. Halperin, Anti-Semitism: Causes and Effects,
New York: Philosophical Library, 1978

simpletoremember.com/vitals/HistoryJewishPersecution.htm

ASK YOURSELF WHY POLAND AND....PLEASE WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
osiol 55 | 3,922  
12 Jan 2008 /  #162
PLEASE WAKE UP

It's the middle of the night in Poland.

They have been kicked out throughout history and hated by the people of the countries they sucked dry...

Blah blah flipping blah. In mediaeval Europe, they were set up in the position where they could deal with money in ways that the Christian majority were forbidden from doing, so it was obvious who would be there to take the blame when something went wrong.

The knowledge that your people have had to leave everything behind and move on so many times must be enough to keep you on your toes and know that in life you have to get off your arse, get educated and make something of your life.
kaliszer - | 99  
13 Jan 2008 /  #163
I was incommunicado on Shabat, so I'm answering some older posts:

can it be argued that traditional Jews saw Poland as a means to an end?

Jews saw Poland not as a means to an end, but as a means of survival, because it seemed to offer a more comfortable existence than Germany, Bohemia or Spain. That's the historian's answer, but the average Jew didn't think in those terms. For him Poland was simply the place he was born in because some unknown ancestor moved there from Germany (for example) to join a cousin who moved there before. That's the way migration works.

is the nation that provides the living area for the separate ethnic group required to accept that group unconditionally ("take us as you find us"), or, should that separate ethnic group through their own impetus, fit in - if not, why?

No nation is required to accept newcomers unconditionally. I understand why Poles would have been irritated by a large community of foreigners who maintain their own separateness. But a nation, and individuals are required to deal with that issue in a non-violent manner as long as the newcomers are non-violent. The Jews, it should be emphasized, never were a physical threat to any Polish town or city where they lived. There were no bands of Jewish rioters killing and burning Polish towns. So I can't fault a Pole back in those days for resenting Jews and trying to exclude them. I would definitely fault a Pole or anyone else for participating in a pogrom.

I think that over the centuries, even though Jews remained separate, they became an integral part of the make up of Poland, some of them being there for as long as the "ethnic Poles" were. So the resentment of the newcomer became less legitimate as time went on. Once the Jews had been a part of the country for hundreds of years, they could not be called "newcomers" or "foreigners" any more. At a certain point the ethnic Poles would have to accept that Polish Jews had the same right as the Christians to live their lives as they saw fit -- even if it meant that they spoke a different language and dressed differently.

Did the Jews have an obligation to try to fit in? To some extent, yes. They had to adapt to the local ways of doing things in social matters, business affairs and politics. And in these respects they did adapt. But an ethnic minority is not obligated to disappear.

Organized Israeli trips concentrate on the death sites without any help from Poles, and I believe consciously avoid any sites that speak about the life of Jews in pre-war (or for that matter today's) Poland. As an example, there is a small Jewish museum in the old synagogue in Oświęcim, but hardly anyone goes there, despite the droves of people visiting the camp. Warsaw has a small but lively Jewish community, but from what I know none of the Israeli tour organizers are very interested in showing that to the school kids they bring here.

The organized tours are now very aware of that problem and are trying to shift the emphasis to the centuries of Jewish life in Poland and not only on the destruction. Most of them now visit the Nozik synagogue in Warsaw, and some go to the museum at Oświęcim. I was there. There is also a Jewish culture festival in Krakow that is drawing more visitors each year. But it's hard to get around the fact that the few physical remnants of that vanished world are mostly in the cemeteries.

How can there be a debate about this being a good thing? Why would you want to be isolated and not considered an equal part of the sociaty you live in unless you convert to the dominante religion?

That of course is a good thing -- to be able to be accepted without having to convert. What I meant is: Is it a good thing for Jews to assimilate to the extent that they disappear as Jews?
isthatu 3 | 1,164  
13 Jan 2008 /  #164
I hear what your saying,and a trickey one to answer with the "full range" of jewishness on display in the UK ( i speak obviously for the country I am most familiar with) from people who are maybe only "ethnicaly" jewish to ultra orthodox and everything inbetween this matter of "disapearing" is down to personal choice,there is nothing to be gained from dropping your Jewishness as may be the case in some countries .

"Is it a good thing for Jews to assimilate to the extent that they disappear as Jews? "
Well in Sascha Baron Cohen's case,as Borat a whole heap of cash and a funny TV series :)
WAKEUPPOLAND2 - | 35  
13 Jan 2008 /  #165
In mediaeval Europe, they were set up in the position where they could deal with money in ways that the Christian majority were forbidden from doing, so it was obvious who would be there to take the blame when something went wrong.

You obviously haven't read the link....it is SHOCKING!! I will repeat it again for your benefit:

simpletoremember.com/vitals/HistoryJewishPersecution.htm

This list predates medieval europe but only goes back to 250BC. Interestingly is does not go back as far as 500-600BC which is when Jews were exiled to Babylon. Obviuosly this event was was ommited from this list because it is compiled by Jews to win the 'anti-semetic' sympathy vote.

In which case I have to ask the question was the expulsion of the Jews to Babylonia an 'anti-semetic' act?
OP southern 75 | 7,096  
13 Jan 2008 /  #166
was the expulsion of the Jews to Babylonia an 'anti-semetic' act?

Their expulsion from Egypt in 1200 BC was a true antisemetic act.
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389  
14 Jan 2008 /  #167
The rest of the post,surprisingly I cant argue with. Why do you feel the need to embelish even the truth with silly,absurd statements like that? It just lumps you in with David Irvine and other loonies who are so easily proved fantasists.

Here, Isthatu: ellhn.e-e-e.gr/books/assets/founder_of_Israel.pdf
Read it and give me your opinion.
cyg 5 | 119  
18 Jan 2008 /  #168
Yet another voice on the Polish-Jewish thing (specifically the new Gross book): nwe.pl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=82
kalisher - | 3  
26 Jan 2008 /  #169
Kaliszer,
I would like to know how to contact you. Perhaps we are related. My family is from Poland and spelled the name like you Kaliszer. I will try to write you a private message.

Thank you.
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
27 Jan 2008 /  #170
specifically the new Gross book

Gorss in half Pole and half Jew and his new book is provokation. His other books are friedly for Poles but this one has one aim, he wanted to provoke debate about what happened after the WWII he talks about facts which really occured but this book isn't historical book.
Wyspianska  
29 Mar 2008 /  #171
Me and other Jews rock! :D


z_darius 14 | 3,968  
29 Mar 2008 /  #172
Gorss in half Pole and half Jew and his new book is provokation. His other books are friedly for Poles but this one has one aim, he wanted to provoke debate about what happened after the WWII he talks about facts which really occured but this book isn't historical book.

You hit the nail on the head.

Gross is similar to that ungrateful liar and plagiarist Kosinski. If the career is not going too well, and you happen to have a little Jewish blood in you then you can always write a book on how terrible those Poles are and how they killed Jews, often against clear protests of German occupiers of Poland. Yeah, Germans tried to stop Poles but what can one do, huh?

Gross is not a researcher or historian - he is a "hysterian"
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389  
29 Mar 2008 /  #173
As a student of Jewish history, let me put things in a nutshell for you: the origins of the Eastern Jews are in Central Asia...they are a Turkic tribe that migrated into the area of the lower Volga basin around the time of 200-300 AD...this tribe was then known as Kagans/Khazars...their religious worship was pagan in nature, with an emphasis on nature worship with some phallic worship, also...they were very fierce warriors, traders (slaves, furs, some textiles) and also farmers...the Muslims refer to them as Wa'Juj a Ma'Juj, or Gog and Magog...they had many conflicts, after 700

AD with the Muslim Ca;iphate, which was based in what is now Iraq...there was also commerce and exchange with the Jews who also lived in Babylonia at the same time...the Jews moved back to Babylonia after their final ejection from Judea and Samaria, the result of the Romans crushing the Bar Kochba rebellion around 133AD...

around 800 AD, the head or Kagan of the Khazars, Bulan, converted the whole nation of the Khazars to Rabbinical Judaism...this conversion was enabled by rabbis from the Jewish acadamies in Pumbitha/Sura, Babylonia who travelled between Khazaria and Babylonia...the conversion was made for political expediency, as the Khazars were under threat from both the Muslims to the South, and from the Byzantine Empire, which was Christian, based in Constantinople, from the West...they thus became a very large 'buffer' state...around 950 AD, the Khazars came under pressure from new tribes from the North, primarily the Rus...there were many conflicts, but finally, around 1000 AD, the Rus under Sviataslav, who had converted to Orthodox Christianity, finally destroyed Khazaria, for all intents and purposes...the Rus destroyed their fortress at Sarkel, which I believe was on the Don or Dneiper river, and also their capitol of Itil, which was on the Volga...at this point the Khazar 'Jews' dispersed North and Northwestward, into what is now the Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuaia and Poland...also note, that before the fall of the Khazarian kingdom, many Khazars also immigrated Westward, into Hungary...Kiev became an early center of Khazarian Jewry; there were also some Karaite Jews, who do not accept the Talmud, who emmigrated Northward from their homes in the Crimea area, but they were very small in number...anyway, these Khazars are the

historical source of the Eastern Jews...now, some peple call them Ashkenazic Jews,
and this is an acceptable term, except that Ashkenazim also refers to Jews who traditionally lived in Germany, the Rhineland and Bavaria, also some from northern Italy...the confusion comes from the fact that the German Ashkenazim never migrated Eastward into Poland/Lithuania/Russia in any significant numbers...BUT, the Yiddish language, which is a 'Hebraic' German, gradually became the 'lingua franca' of all the Eastern Jews, as the German Jews had a higher rate of literacy/language development...as the Khazars grew in numbers and in trade relations with surrounding tribes, including the German 'Ashkenazim', Yiddish became the main language of those who subscribed to the Jewish religion/culture...

Now, the Khazar Jews managed to live in relative peace with the Russians, and as we know, in the Polish/Lithuanian empire for hundreds of years...but, because of the tribal/religious differences, there was always a seperation...this was a source of friction...most Slavs are either Orthodox Catholics or Roman Catholics...Judaism, the religion of the Talmud, or 'Teachings of the Elders', of course, completely rejects Christ, and in fact, the Talmud is the only 'holy book' of any religion that specifically vilifies the founder of another faith, in this case Jesus Christ and his mother, Mary...although the Talmud has been to some extent censored or changed by the rabbis, because they knew that Christians had become aware of it's teachings, the old Christian Russians, Poles & Ukranians knew of these teachings and also some violent 'ritual' practices associated with it...this caused a fear of the

Jews, and later led to much worse...when the Russians broke up the Polish/Lithuanian 'empire', you see the creation of the so-called 'Pale of Settlement' in Russia, which corresponded to land seized from the Poles/Lithuanians...there was

a large Khazar population on these lands, and the Russian Czars felt they were an 'alien' presence, and imposed certain restrictions on them...this was during the late 18-19th Century...the tribal conflict, actually centuries long, between the Orthodoc Russians and the Khazar Jews reached it's tragic climax with the Bolshevik/Communist revolution in 1917...Bolshevism/Communism was a Jewish creation from start to finish, with the 'brain power'/money supplied by Ashkenazic

Jews from Germany (now also based in the UK/US), and the 'shock troops' or killers
supplied by the Rusian Khazars...we know the result: the destruction of Mother Russia, with an estimated 20-30 million Russian Christians/peasants slaughtered under the Communist/Talmudic rule...Poland became independent for a time after the Bolshevik takeover, led by one Iosef Pilsudski, the great Polish warrior who stopped the Red Army of Trotsky at the Battle of Warsaw, 1919...this battle prevented the Russian Bolshevists from linking up with their German 'brothers and sisters', led by Rosa Luxembourg among others, and completing the 'Bolshevization' of all Norther Europe...but this was only a temporary respite...Hitler became dictator of a prostrate Germany, and thus began the Nazis, who were a reaction to the Jewish Bolsheviks of the Soviet Union...Poland was caught in between, and you know the rest...I invite comments.
isthatu 3 | 1,164  
29 Mar 2008 /  #174
thats a bloody big nutshell joe...;)
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
29 Mar 2008 /  #175
Hehehe, he started out with the best of intentions
isthatu 3 | 1,164  
29 Mar 2008 /  #176
yep and mussolini got the trains to run on time......
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389  
29 Mar 2008 /  #177
thats a bloody big nutshell joe...;)

My nuts are so big, you need a gravy-boat to hold 'em!
Crnogorac 3 | 111  
29 Mar 2008 /  #179
Khazaria and Poland

This is the ancient Jewish kingdom of Khazaria - the Khazars were originally a pagan tribe who converted to Judaism in the 7th century. It is estimated that 90% of today's Jews are Khazars a Turkic-Mongol tribe and only 7% to 10% Jews are Semitic.

Thus so called "Anti-Semitism" is propably the biggest hoax of the last century which has lasted for over 13 centuries. This is why you will never learn this in conventional history books which have been edited. It blows their claim of Palestine right out of the water.

These Khazar Jews who today have attained increadible power by gaining control of mass media, publishing, finance of the American and British governments, are Zionists who follow the blasphemous teachings of the Talmud and especially hate all Slavs because they fear them the most. The reason is the following:

SS

Slavic warrior Prince Svyatoslav I of Kievan Rus (seated in the boat), the destroyer of the Khazar Khaganate.

Also not far from the church and monastery you can see a big monument to Great Prince Svyatoslav of Kiev. It was built up in 2005 for the 1040th anniversary of crushing defeat of the Khazar Kaganate.

After their bolshevik-jewish-communism revenge plan failed to achieve its objective - the destruction of Christianity and elimination of Slavic nations as an entity, now they are using military force through their vehicle NATO to conquest Serbia and are preparing for the final euthanization of Russia.

We have destroyed them once, and God willing we shall do so again.
isthatu 3 | 1,164  
29 Mar 2008 /  #180
look cromagnon man,you lot couldnt destroy a paper bag/the bosnians /croats........give it a rest you backwoods ,tribal nut job.

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