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Jewish love towards Poles


omniba  
5 Jan 2008 /  #31
This isn't "your" country, stupid Yank.

An amazingly "cultured" reply! Is this a demonstration of that "wisdom" you were on about?
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161  
5 Jan 2008 /  #32
A amazingly cultured reply!

Thank you.
kaliszer - | 99  
6 Jan 2008 /  #33
Telling everyone that they are the "chosen" people (contrary to everone else) and denying assimiliation into the host countries might have something to do with that....

We (the Jews) are not the ones telling everyone we're chosen. The bible says so, and Christians are meant to believe the bible. But we were chosen not as a "master race" but for a specific spiritual purpose, to follow the Torah that God gave us and to be a holy nation. We haven't always done our job properly and we're the first to admit that, but we're doing the best we can considering.

About assimilation: Jews have tried that, particularly in Germany, where most Jews considered themselves german above all. A lot of good that did!
isthatu 3 | 1,164  
6 Jan 2008 /  #34
About assimilation: Jews have tried that, particularly in Germany, where most Jews considered themselves german above all. A lot of good that did!

On the whole its been pretty darn succesfull in the UK.Speaking as a Briton all this endless discusian about "jews this and jews that" just seems so alien and frankly,mid 20th century. I could probably give you a massive list of famous/succsefull British Jews but frankly it isnt an issiue over here so it would take some digging around. Sure we have "jewish areas"where more Orthodox people have collected over the years but on the whole assimilation is pretty complete here.
omniba  
6 Jan 2008 /  #35
We (the Jews) are not the ones telling everyone we're chosen. The bible says so

I don't mean to quibble, at least no more than usual - but who wrote the Bible?
kaliszer - | 99  
6 Jan 2008 /  #36
on the whole assimilation is pretty complete here

That might be true in the UK. But I think the important accomplishment in the UK and the US is acceptance of diversity, which means that you don't have to assimilate to avoid persecution, you just have to be a decent citizen and accept certain public social norms. Also, in the UK there are much more visible minority cultures around, so UK Jews seem very british by comparison.
omniba  
6 Jan 2008 /  #37
so UK Jews seem very british by comparison.

Not the ones around the Hackney district in London. They are very Orthodox in attire - both adults and children. The Jewish community there is very large.
kaliszer - | 99  
6 Jan 2008 /  #38
I don't mean to quibble, at least no more than usual - but who wrote the Bible?

That's a question of belief. The point I wanted to make is that many Christians who criticize Jews for being the so called "chosen people" have forgotten that their own religion is based on that same premise. They believe that Jesus was the promised messiah of the jews, a descendant of the house of david. That presupposes a belief in the hebrew bible, where all those concepts originated, including the concept of a chosen people.

Not the ones around the Hackney district in London.

I said "by comparison". I would hope that they don't assimilate completely.
omniba  
6 Jan 2008 /  #39
That's a question of belief

Well surely it isn't a question of belief - it's not an imaginary book, the figment of someones imagination - it's real and it didn't suddenly arrive in a cloud. Some group of people wrote the Bible and these people were Jews so it was the Jews in the first instance who claimed to be the chosen people.

I would hope that they don't assimilate completely.

Yes, total assimilation would be a pity - it would take away the colour and render everything greyish. All cultures enrich all other cultures.
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
6 Jan 2008 /  #40
About assimilation: Jews have tried that, particularly in Germany, where most Jews considered themselves german above all.

Some, and perhaps even a lot did - depending what "a lot" means. When they did assimilate it was usually forced. Spain, France, Germany, England were no Jewish loving nations at all. The myth of the Western love for and tollerance of the Jewish culture came pretty late in the game. If Jews living in those countries assimilated, they did so because of some local law that left them without many alternatives.

Most did not want to assimilate, so they left and kept on emigrating over the centiries, mostly to Poland where their assimilation wasn't such a great success story either. Living, by choice, in areas where 80%+ of population was Jewish they simply had no incentives to assimilate, so they didn't. Many didn't even speak Polish even though their families had lived in Poland for generations and most have always considered themselves a nation living within another host nation's terrotory.
kaliszer - | 99  
6 Jan 2008 /  #41
Some group of people wrote the Bible and these people were Jews so it was the Jews in the first instance who claimed to be the chosen people.

It's a question of belief if the bible was given to Moses at Mount Sinai (I'm referring now only to the 5 books of Moses) and if the books of the prophets were written under direct divine inspiration as the word of God. If you don't believe this then you can say that the ancient Jews made up the idea of a chosen people. Fine. But a christian would believe that the bible is from God. Jesus certianly would have said so. And if it was from God, where do christians come off blaming us for being chosen. It's not as if we asked for it.
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
6 Jan 2008 /  #42
The "chose people" problem continues to this day on both sides of the crucifix. Israeli politicians cite the Bible as the docment giving them rights to pretty much anything they want to do (mostly refering to land raights though).

On the other side, the likes of G. Dubya Bush just can't shed that sermon-like rethoric and symbols from their speeches.

So, whoever criticizes the other side... well both deserve each other :)
kaliszer - | 99  
6 Jan 2008 /  #43
and most have always considered themselves a nation living within another host nation's terrotory.

True. Most did. And that's why I'm a Jew today and not a Pole, even though my grandfather and his father and his father... were born in Poland. It was an absurd situation , an nation maintaining a separate identity without living in a territory of its own, and it had no solution until it became feasible for Jews to go back to Israel. The US was the choice for many, because it's a country not based on ethnicity. But I prefer a Jewish country where Jewish naitonhood can flourish rather than just be tolerated. (Today Israel and Poland get along politically much better than Jews and Poles ever did within Poland.)

Israeli politicians cite the Bible as the docment giving them rights to pretty much anything they want to do

Most israeli politicians and leaders are not religious. I wish they would cite the bible as often as you give them credit for. The jewish claim to this land is based on our well-known historic connection with the land. The bible is the most widely known record of that and is believed by a large part of the world, so that's why we quote it. But it's not an excuse for everything, just a basis for our being here. And face it, if we weren't here, we might be in Poland, or the UK. So be happy we're here.
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
6 Jan 2008 /  #44
The US was the choice for many, because it's a country not based on ethnicity.

It's not like the US was so friendlt to the Jewish people. Not untill pretty recently anyway. Biggest thanks should go to Martin Luther King whose actions helped also non-Blacks (Jews and Poles among others), before they go to any particularly patriotic/nationalistic Jew or Pole.

(Today Israel and Poland get along politically much better than Jews and Poles ever did within Poland.)

Read the Satutes of Kalisz. Some Polish laws placed Jews over Polish catholics. Sure there were problems. There were problems between Poles and Jews, between Mazovians and Wielkopolans, Kaszubians and Malopolans etc. But compared to other European countries things were not so bad for Jews in Poland, until Poland's partitions in 1790's.

The jewish claim to this land is based on our well-known historic connection with the land. The bible is the most widely known record of that and is believed by a large part of the world, so that's why we quote it.

The Bible is not a historic record. It is a collage of historic facts, mixed with myths, legends and propaganda good for the times when they were written and used, but not now.

True, Jews have lived in the area since the times they exterminated or expelled the nations that had lived there before them, but that was a long, long time ago. Using your timeframe, Scotss could claim Poland, Germany, France as their ancestral lands. But then, Slavs could claim Berlin.

Most israeli politicians and leaders are not religious. I wish they would cite the bible as often as you give them credit for.

Agreed. Most are not religious and they do not cite the Bible daily. Its has been know to have happened lately though. Also, the influence of the Orthodox Jews in Israeli politics is still pretty damn important.

And face it, if we weren't here, we might be in Poland, or the UK. So be happy we're here.

Why should I be happy with that?
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
6 Jan 2008 /  #45
as to Israel, you should undestand that you have stolen land form Palestinians. What is important they havent participated in WWII so they have their arguments. Why a hell Palestinians have to suffer because of Hitlers decissions...

You dont have true friends, last time EU parliament wanted to give support for Palestinians but this decission have been blocked (BTW by Poland not by UK, France or Germany). In USA more and more people ask if it is good business to support you. It seams that Obama will win and I wouldnt be so sure that he will continue USA policy in region. I m covicted that arabs will take first opportunity to tear to pieces all Jews in Israel.

In my opinion you should change your policy because next war like this against Liban when you bombarded hospitals and all infrastructure of this country and called it precise attack on terrorists will give more arguments for your enemies.

Like Bratwurst Boy noticed on this forum post WWII world is over and everything change.

You must change your policy and make some compromises maybe painful but you really need it. Because there is strong stereotype that Jews do not deserve to have their own country and Israel is presented as an example.

It was friendly advice and Poles are not your enemies as you think.
isthatu 3 | 1,164  
6 Jan 2008 /  #46
And face it, if we weren't here, we might be in (Poland, or) the UK. So be happy we're here.

No,come back some of you please,the arts in the UK are going down hill :)

What is important they havent participated in WWII so they have their arguments.

Eh,have you never heard of No10 interallied commando, countless thousands of jews fought in WW2 on the Allied side,either as soldiers in the regular armed forces of their home nations(upto and including Generalships) such as US or UK or refugees from Germany/Austria etc who served with SOE and commando units or "just" as pioneers in the British army?....It is hard to figure out your exat meaning with that statement so I have a couple of answers, secondly, Do you mean Palastine didnt take part in WW2? Yes it did,it was a british mandate and had countless bases,including I might add some for Anders army.

Contrary to what is being said here,there is a DEFINATE DIFFERENCE of attitudes to Jewish people between east and west Europe,and there has been for a very long time,thankfully. "We" may not have always got it right,Im thinking internment and the Dunera incident at the start of WW2 but at least "we" admited this as a shamefull mistake on "our" part and dont tll this day try and blame the victims for the crimes..........
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
6 Jan 2008 /  #47
Contrary to what is being said here,there is a DEFINATE DIFFERENCE of attitudes to Jewish people between east and west Europe,and there has been for a very long time,thankfully.

Of course the attitudes were different. Few would dispute that.
Over the centuries most European Jews, having experienced too much persecution in Spain, France, Germany and rich England decided to live in poor Poland, Russia, Hungary and such.
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
6 Jan 2008 /  #48
"We" may not have always got it right,Im thinking internment and the Dunera incident at the start of WW2 but at least "we" admited this as a shamefull mistake on "our" part and dont tll this day try and blame the victims for the crimes..........

It seams that "you" will change your opinion in nearest future. "We" call jews victims and "we" and "we" were victims durring WWII. It wasnt our idea to kill Jews but Germans. We comment only realtionship between our nations before WWII. Generaly if we would wanted to kill Jews together with hitler we would had taken his proposal "Give us GdaƄsk, Jews, part of western Poland and take part of western Ukraine you are equal race" We would be on winers side ... but who remember about this. Polish Jews (who live in Poland) interprete this phenomen why everything fails on Poland by the fact that we were sold for Russia and it was better to make form us collabortators eventhought other countries like France Hungary Itlay Baltic stetes collaborated to much higer level. And fact that we have debate about Jews contribution in commie regime isnt anything wrong because we discusse history.

Over the centuries most European Jews, having experienced too much persecution in Spain, France, Germany and rich England decided to live in poor Poland, Russia, Hungary and such.

bingo

such a backward antysemit country Poland was the choice of form rich and tolerant Jews form UK France and Germany interesting . Maybe Kaliszer will tell us sth about it.

We will have next example when they will turn back from Israel instead of forcing change in their policy what will cause deffinitive end of this country, but after 50 years they will say sorry again. Poland will not say sorry because we try to give them advice. I m sure that then it will be antisemitism.

please dont tell strories about slavic Jews like black Jews because all Polish Jews were in Poland because of expulsions form western countries
isthatu 3 | 1,164  
6 Jan 2008 /  #49
such a backward antysemit country Poland was the choice of form rich and tolerant Jews form UK

bollox,from the mid/late 19th C Jews were flooding out of Poland to the UK,that carried on all through the first half of the 20thcentury as well.Many,if not most British Jews are descended from those who left the Pale and Poland because of constant pogroms and out and out anti semitic laws and people. Big deal,hundreds of years ago Kazmierz said,come live in our ghetto ,shame they were stuck there for most of the next few hundred years though isnt it.

because all Polish Jews were in Poland because of expulsions form western countries

yes,in the late middle ages,shame some of your countrymens attitudes to jews seems stuck in that era.
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
6 Jan 2008 /  #50
if not most British Jews are descended from those who left the Pale and Poland because of constant pogroms and out and out anti semitic laws

find Poland on XIX century map ... we call XIX century "century of great emigration" Poles were everywhere the same as Polish Jews ... and believe me law was anti Polish as well ...
isthatu 3 | 1,164  
6 Jan 2008 /  #51
And fact that we have debate about Jews contribution in commie regime isnt anything wrong because we discusse history.

again,bollox,If I started going on about all the Polish communists youd be up in frikkin arms with" we werent communists,you cant say that,you sold us to russia blah blah blah" at the very least you would accuse me of being anti Polish so why keep banging on like David Irving about someones familiy/traditional religion? Especially about people who being good communists obviously wernt going to temple or reciting many shabat prayers..........I really think some of you just dont get it,you have lived in a mono cultural bubble for so long that many of your ingrained ideas just sound so,well so bloomin old fashioned. Its like listinig to a drunk old miner rambling on about darkies in the local WMC....
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
6 Jan 2008 /  #52
is it forbiden for Pole to discusse about commie regime ? Yes majorit of Polish commies were native Poles but it wasnt our sytem ... I think that in 2008 we can say that communism was popular idea in Jewish society. BTW world without rich and poor religion and race (commie ideas) after XIX century and after WWII gives some reasons why Jews wanted to be commie ... can we discusse about it ? or we cant ? OMG we are free country we can discuesse about it the same as americans can discusse about "Black Panters" or Martin Luter King.
isthatu 3 | 1,164  
6 Jan 2008 /  #53
I think that in 2008 we can say that communism was popular idea in Jewish society.

No,what you can say though is that for many jews communism was a popular idea.

BTW world without rich and poor religion and race (commie ideas) after XIX century and after WWII gives some reasons why Jews wanted to be commie

this makes no logical(and for that matter very little grammatical) sense. So a religious group wanted there to be no religion did they? The jews great goal was to do away with religion was it? Ok smart ie pants,why the nation state of Israel then?

OMG we are free country we can discuesse about it

discuss all you like ,just be aware you come across as hillbilly peasants when you g on about "the jews" as though every single person with a drop of jewish blood thinks the same,feels the same and has the same goals in life.

Oh,and just to clear up,you say Britain has not always welcomed Jewish people,agreed 100%,but lets look in more detail,the last time we in Britain went loopy and burned dozens of them alive was in 1300 or so ,sorry,in Poland it was when,1945/6?
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
6 Jan 2008 /  #54
So a religious group

NATION !!! it wasnt religous group ! you dont understand issue about which you argue so much. Jews in Poland were different nation they had their own language , culture and religion. Some didnt believe in god but called themselves Jews ...

here you have

True. Most did. And that's why I'm a Jew today and not a Pole, even though my grandfather and his father and his father... were born in Poland. It was an absurd situation , an nation maintaining a separate identity without living in a territory of its own

every single person with a drop of jewish blood thinks the same,feels the same and has the same goals in life.

I dont think so
isthatu 3 | 1,164  
6 Jan 2008 /  #55
you dont understand issue about which you argue so much.

lmao,have you ever actually met a jewish person?any jewish mates you see regularly? No,didnt think so......
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
6 Jan 2008 /  #56
do I have to met Teuton Knight to discusse situation in XIV century Poland.BTW I know one Pole with Jewsih origin (now he is Catholic) he has restaurant in Poznan and he is good friend of my father.
isthatu 3 | 1,164  
6 Jan 2008 /  #57
isthatu wrote:
every single person with a drop of jewish blood thinks the same,feels the same and has the same goals in life.

I dont think so

So why keep going on about "the jews" then?? Ok,Ive met some really awfull,bigoted slimey rascist Poles(and I dont just mean G') in my time but I try to limit my use of lazy stereotyping as much as possible and not talk about them as "the poles" but as "some poles"

XIV century

please,If your writing in English dont use that bizzare movie credits latin stuff,just write 14th.You'll baffle many Brits :)
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
6 Jan 2008 /  #58
So why keep going on about "the jews" then??

OK maybe it looks strange to read Jews that or Jews this and in some way you are right, but in USA they use term like "black americans" and we have term like "Polish Jews" because before WWII it was about 10% of our society having their own language (some didnt speak Polish only Jidish) culture, religion, political parties.
OP southern 75 | 7,096  
6 Jan 2008 /  #59
the last time we in Britain went loopy and burned dozens of them alive was in 1300 or so

Because after 1300 and for the next 400 years there were no Jews in England.They had been expelled.
omniba  
6 Jan 2008 /  #60
(some didnt speak Polish only Jidish)

Yes, but were these Jews who were escaping from Hitler's Germany into Poland or had they been in Poland for a long time?

Because after 1300 and for the next 400 years there were no Jews in England.They had been expelled.

That's a very good point.

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