History of the crime ; Bandera, UPA and Podole Polish land.

On the subject I have found some documentary.

Thank you for this. Ukrainian cruelty exceeded german crimes

Nothing justifies murder but we should've known better than to oppress them.

The Soviets freed them from Polish oppression in 1939.

What are you talking about?

Ironside

Can you post part 2 and 3 as well? Thanks, it's very interesting.

>^..^<

M-G (kinda hungover)

Thanks. Good that it's subtitled in English :)

>^..^<

M-G (has a new tune with a new sound - a bit more groovy)

They asked for it by themselfs. If they had continued to fight along Poles like in one of the uprisings I clearly doubt that they would been opressed.

Grunwald
Is this so? Then I suppose it means that Poles deserved to be oppressed for making those uprisings in the first place. If they were loyal to Russians, Germans and Austrians then they wouldn't have been oppressed.

vetala

You should probably watch the film. No one guilty of mass murder though as they were not Jews. The focus is Holocaust and Demjaniuk.

I watched the film. It's very sad and it's even more sad that the perpetrators weren't brought to justice. I'm only pointing out that it is NOT surprising that Ukrainians had a grudge against us and this fact is also very sad.

Really? what would that be ?
Would you said the same thing about Germans and Jews ?

I-S (phew!)

Germans - no. Germans in Poland were treated just the same if not better than Poles in Germany.
Jews - yes. I'm not happy about this and I think it's often exaggerated, but interwar Poland was a VERY antisemitic state, so they certainly had the right to have a grudge.

Any kind of fighting between Poles and Ukrainians in the past should
never be considered anything else than a civil war. Foreign influence
and also bad politics towards our eastern territories led to unspeakable
horrors for civilians and the wall of hatred was built between essentialy
the same people, members of the great Rzeczpospolita who lived together
and on many occasions fought together (like under Vienna, for example,
where Sobieski's Cossack units fought with valor and bravery).

you misunderstood me.
I mean would you said that German had a right to have grudge against Jews?

For me above statement is logical conclusion of your ridiculous statement in contexts of Ukrainians and Poles.
Its so stupid that I lack vocabulary to describe it and don't want resort to invectives.

Would you consider some time off to think about what you said, and I mean really think!!!

I-S (GEE!)

*snicker*

Poles didn't co operate fully with thoose 3 to make an co-operative state in the first place. The ukies wanted it, then changed their views. If someone wants right sin a country someone should deserve it. As an example the Tzar gave many rights to the Poles but as they rebelled he took them away.

Or you think give away rights to someone who just fought against you and would been happy to have you destroyed? You really have a twisted logic

What do you smoke, bro? ; )
Show me a treaty where Ukies wanted anything to do with you.

But look simply at your logic:


Ok, let's assume we wanted it (what a BS!:), so we should have had the rights the same as you, before we "changed our views" - correct? Yes. Then you say:


How can you give the rights (which according to you should have been there in the first place) to people (who are already in union with you wilfully with the same rights) and now fighting with you (what for?) and you claim that it is preposterous to give them the rights? How can you give again something that is already there?

So either you lie (obvious!), or there was a treaty and one side didn't keep up to its promises. In 1569 there was Lublin Union between Lithuania and Poland. I see no Ukraine there and Ukies saying: "Yejjj!"

I see no Kashubia there either, or Kashubians saying "Jo!".

Ukraine was not an independent country then, so it would be quite impossible
to sign a union with it, just as it would be equally nonsensical to sign a union
with Kashubia :)

Not to mention that Ukrainians are essentially Polish (even if they have their own
language and customs, like Kashubians for example). So I ask again, Nathan - when
will you embrace your Polishness, and forget all this "Oh-we-Ukrainians-are-a-different
nation-than-Poles" nonsense???

Kashubia? Do tell...was there ever one?


Like with the Dutch and Austrians to the Germans?

....fascinating!

Fuckinhell BB - you're ruining my wind-up attempt man!

Don't interfere when two Poles (Nathan and I) are talking! It's a family matter!

'msorry
(But I really have no clue about these things)

*slinks back into corner*

You have no clue about Polnisch-Lituaisches Grossreich???

OK, that does it - next time I'm playing For The Glory, first thing I'm going to do
will be annexing Prussia. That'll teach you to learn some history of your neighbours! ;)

Okay....but since we plan to merge anyhow I think we could do without the annexing thingie, ja? ;)

But really....lot's of eastern history is still a black hole for many of my compatriots...I find it interesting! :)

Oh, yeah - I forgot about that, sorry!


If you have any questions, just ask me (without paying attention to what Nathan
says, for example) and you'll be a history expert in no time! ;)

I'm lurking all the time already...:)

Good for you, BB! I've noticed your willingness to learn, mein boy.
If only you weren't so stubborn sometimes ;)

Poles are always trying to expand, which leads eventually to contraction. This is called the 1st law of history. The bigger expansion, the more powerful contraction - like a heart and not only ;) You feel always lonely, inadequate, psychotic - why? You need somebody else to tell that you are worth something? Your power is based on the same principles as Russia - the bigger, the more powerful? Wouldn't it be better to invest into science and improve lives of millions instead of pretending there is any family link between us and show me doves with angels armed to their teeth? Bad boy, Torq.

I can see that you still stick to that "I'm Ukrainian, not Polish" nonsense.

Very well, Nathan, very well - in that case, I'm not Polish either - I'm a Pomeranian.

*ROLLS EYES*

Yes Nathan we're going to invade you any second now, you will plow my fields and i will plow your sister.

Seriously dude why would we try to expand into Ukraine, yes we did for the past 500 years but that was in the past, we're not a powerfull country anymore and we dont have ambitions to match, not to mention when we did own Ukraine it was not inhabited by a nation but by a bunch of Ruthenian peasants.


And this is exactly why we're so friendly towards Ukraine, why we're helping your country out in every field including diplomacy, EU accession and even lately with the flue issues.

Yeah we're exactly like Russia.

Treaty? Maybe you smoked? Show me where I had written "treaty"
I was talking about the uprisings in the last part of 18th century the insurgents used the type of flag wich Torq uses on his profile btw.

They were fighting for Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian commonwealth then suddenly in 1918 they wanted their own state hmmm. I blame the Germans, it's known that they payed Lenin and his newspaper also supporting Lithuanians and Ukrainians with their own "states" (Divide and conquer policy) pitty that it worked out.