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I have to decide between two job offers, Berlin vs Wroclaw


bahamut88
25 Apr 2017  #1
Hello, I have two job offers, one in Berlin and one in Wroclaw. I'm very undecided at the moment, I would prefer the job in Wroclaw, but you know, Germany always has its appeal.

Money wise I would get around 1350 in Berlin and 4300pln in Wroclaw (net figures). In Wroclaw I also have some benefits. Which would you rather choose?

Is 4300 enough for Poland? How does it work with salary increase generally? You get one each year? Any other things to consider?
Lyzko 23 | 6,530
25 Apr 2017  #2
If you know either Polish or German reasonably well, both places might indeed have their appeal. Other than that, you'd be wasting your precious and money, pal!

Adult educated European professionals are tiring real fast of foreigners weedling their way into their society without knowing the language and expecting to be treated as royalty, even if the average Polish or German YUPPIE knows English quite well.
DominicB - | 2,678
25 Apr 2017  #3
@bahamut88

For 4300 PLN a month gross, it is not worth coming to Wrocław. Once you figure in the cost of your travel, visa and residency permit, you will have enough only to live the most frugal lifestyle, with zero savings, and maybe even lose out on the deal.

Same with the job in Berlin. It's peanuts and you would have to sleep under a bridge.
jon357 63 | 14,124
25 Apr 2017  #4
Is 4300 enough for Poland?

Round about average, though low for an expat. Half will go in rent. Nevertheless, it would stretch further than 1350 in Berlin, which is very low.

You get one each year?

Depends on the job, however usually no.

Anything else to consider? Wroclaw is a nice city, on a more human scale than Berlin and generally considered a good place to live. A lot depends on what you like doing while not at work.
DominicB - | 2,678
25 Apr 2017  #5
A lot depends on what you like doing while not at work.

On 4300 gross, the only fun he will be able to afford is masturbation. Without tissues or hand lotion. The relocation costs are going to take a huge chunk of out his net earnings. With zero savings, ne will be effectively trapped.
jon357 63 | 14,124
25 Apr 2017  #6
masturbation

If he's looking at jobs with that wage range I doubt he expects the high-life. I also suspect the OP is youngish. Nevertheless, Wroclaw is a much better option than Berlin.

He could do a lot worse than click on your username and check out the majority of your posts, trying to deter people from coming to Poland.
DominicB - | 2,678
25 Apr 2017  #7
If he's looking at jobs with that wage range I doubt he expects the high-life.

If he's looking abroad for jobs in that wage range then he might as well stick his head in the oven and get it over with already.

Wroclaw and Berlin are both wonderful cities to live in.... IF you have cash. If not, you might as well be back in Kolkata or Lagos.
jon357 63 | 14,124
25 Apr 2017  #8
he might as well stick his head in the oven and get it over with already.

Now now, Dominic.

Experiencing a new country is always a good thing, and Wroclaw is a great city.
DominicB - | 2,678
25 Apr 2017  #9
Experiencing a new country is always a good thing

Oh, no, it isn't. Nothing $ucks more than being in a foreign country without two pennies to rub together and no way out.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,665
25 Apr 2017  #10
hm Dominic might have a point..
jon357 63 | 14,124
25 Apr 2017  #11
Nothing $ucks more than being in a foreign country

Remember you don't know his circumstances, his age, his tastes, his aspirations or his ability.
DominicB - | 2,678
25 Apr 2017  #12
Remember you don't

Regardless of what they are, living like a cockroach in Wrocław is hardly an attractive option, The oven sounds much more attractive.
jon357 63 | 14,124
25 Apr 2017  #13
living like a cockroach

On the national average wage, people don't live "like a cockroach". I know people who earn far less than that here in Warsaw and live OK. In Wroclaw, most people get that or less. A youngish person who's happy to share a flat would find their flat mates earn less.

god Dominic, you really sound depressed.

Depressed or trolling.
DominicB - | 2,678
25 Apr 2017  #14
On the national average wage, people don't live "like a cockroach".

He would, because he has to deduct the cost of his travel, visa and residency permit from his net wages, and he cannot live as cheaply as a native Pole because he does not know the language, the city or the culture, and does not have a network of family and friends to rely on. Nor is there going to be any social help or rainy-day fund if he needs it. Nor any way out.
Wulkan - | 3,251
25 Apr 2017  #15
hm Dominic might have a point..

He does have a point, Wroclaw is poor comparing to Berlin that has so much more opportunities.
DominicB - | 2,678
25 Apr 2017  #16
@Wulkan

Living on 1350 Euro in Berlin would be, as Jon points out, even worse. Though I do have to agree about there being more opportunities, especially for unskilled laborers. There's no shortage of unskilled labor in Wrocław.
jon357 63 | 14,124
25 Apr 2017  #17
because he has to deduct the cost of his travel, visa and residency permit from his net wages

You don't actually know where he (or she) is from or what sort of job it is.
DominicB - | 2,678
25 Apr 2017  #18
@jon357

There's no putting lipstick on this pig.
OP bahamut88
25 Apr 2017  #19
Hi Guys, thanks for your replies. First of all, some context to help you out. I'm Italian, so I don't have any work permit expenses, just fly there and work,

4300 is NET, not gross as someone said, plus it's a start, I just want to set foot in a country that has a dynamic job market, what is the alternative? Being unemployed in Italy, so I don't think I have much choice! I should point out that in Berlin, 1350 is the salary but I can get extra bonuses based on performance up to 300 euros each month (but I don't know how hard is to get them so I'm not counting them atm).

To reply to dominic: "Nothing $ucks more than being in a foreign country". I think it's quite the contrary, I've worked abroad in Ireland and I absolutely loved it, I don't think Poland or Germany would be any different, anything that is different it's an opportunity for me, meeting new people is always fun.

@jon357, after work I like doing the usual stuff, drinking beer and going to concerts (Metal, so Berlin has advantage here), I don't need much else. Ofc I enjoy travelling when I can, so I hope I can afford something while I'm there.

I don't understand the issue with the travel expenses...I will only have to pay the ticket for the plane and the deposit for the apartment, so pretty low.

I've worked out that apart from half of the wage ending in the apartment, I will still have a decent amount of money left, no? I've checked tesco online groceries prices and it's pretty low compared to Italy, I've lived here "comfortably" with 1500 euros per month, I think I can live with 1000 (4250, right?) in Poland.
jon357 63 | 14,124
25 Apr 2017  #20
In that case Wroclaw sounds a good choice. If you don't mind a room in a shared flat, you'll have more money. Berlin is a great city (and a good music scene) however your wages will go further in Wroclaw, and it's a thriving city with a young population.

Personally, I'd prefer Berlin, for the nightlife and culture, however Wroclaw is pretty good too, and the wage is ok for that city.
OP bahamut88
25 Apr 2017  #21
Thanks Jon, I'm actually married (my wife will join me later in July and she has to find a job as well, that's another story)...so no sharing! I want to live on my own flat, I prefer to save money elsewhere and not on the apartment :)
DominicB - | 2,678
25 Apr 2017  #22
4300 is NET

4300 net is a different story, especially as you don't have to pay much for travel and visa. As long as you stay away from the unholy trinity of alcohol, tobacco and girls, you will even have a little left over for a rainy day fund. No major savings, but at least enough to pay your way back to Italy if things don;t work out.

For people from outside of the EU, the cost of travel, visa and residency permit is quite substantial.

For orientations sake:

Studio apartment, all inclusive, rent fees and utilities: 1500 PLN.

One bedroom ditto, 1900 PLN.

Food and household expenses, about 1000 PLN. Less if you cook all meals from scratch at home, more if you eat or snack away from home a lot.

Public transit, about 100 PLN.

I won't give a figure for internet/TV/telephone because people's expectations and requirements vary widely.

Budget about 300-600 PLN for basic clothing and occasional living expenses.

So that's a minimum of about 3000 PLN right there, before entertainment and travel, and health care.

So yes, you could do it, if you are modest and careful. As for Berlin, it would be quite difficult to live the same lifestyle on 1350 Euro,
jon357 63 | 14,124
25 Apr 2017  #23
you might as well be back in Kolkata or Lagos.

I'm Italian

a different story

Wroclaw is a great place for anyone to be, wherever they're from. A thriving city, good infrastructure, plenty to do and see and not expensive. It has a real 'mitteleuropa' feeling.

One significant thing about Wroclaw is that going out (if you stay out of tourist traps) can be cheap and fun. There are also a lot of good places for day trips, and concerning rock music, the very large student scene means that there's something happening most of the time.
WhirlwindTobias - | 88
25 Apr 2017  #24
I can always tell which response is Dominic's when I enter these threads, and that's not a derogation heh heh.

Jon while you have contention with Dom's methods he's very objective and there's some realism in what he says, and I must repeat that anyone who really wishes to come here will not be dissuaded from doing so.

For me 1350EU seems like pittance in Berlin considering German cost of living, correct me if I'm wrong. I would take Wrocław on principle because it's closer to expected salaries.
DominicB - | 2,678
25 Apr 2017  #25
@jon357

Careful about the assumptions there, young man. Or you'll make a fool of yourself again.
jon357 63 | 14,124
25 Apr 2017  #26
assumptions

Posts, in this thread and many many others.

anyone who really wishes to come here will not be dissuaded from doing so.

Indeed. Thousands of people come here yearly and most have a very positive experience.
DominicB - | 2,678
25 Apr 2017  #27
Posts, in this thread and many many others.

Mostly written by Indians, who, unlike Italians, have to pay a substantial amount for travel, visa and relocation. And who are almost all engineers that could earn substantially more in richer countries. Or students who do not have enough to pay for their studies and hope in vain to find part-time work to pay their way.

There is a huge difference between an Italian and an Indian, and it doesn't have to do with race.

Thousands of people come here yearly and most have a very positive experience.

Most of the students that start don't finish, either because they lack funds or because they come to the realization that a degree from an English-speaking course is worthless on the job market. Most of the workers abscond to greener pastures or return home within a year or two because the wages are so low. Few stay longer, and even fewer settle.
jon357 63 | 14,124
25 Apr 2017  #28
Certain nationalities have a long history of emigration, are quick to build support networks and Poland (including Wroclaw) is increasingly a popular destination. The more of this the better.

A friend came here as a student (and completed his course) borrowed money from within the community and now has a very successful business.
DominicB - | 2,678
25 Apr 2017  #29
@jon357

Transients do not build support networks, and wages and job opportunities will have to go up a lot before Poland becomes an inviting place to settle that can compete with the richer countries.

Any popularity that Poland enjoys as a destination is due to its being perceived as a backdoor to the richer countries of the EU.

And no, there is nothing inherently good about this. Or inherently bad. It's just an unwise move in most cases, and practically never the best option available to the poster in question.
mafketis 20 | 7,243
25 Apr 2017  #30
The more of this the better.

Why? Poland can be a good destination for some but hardly all. It's not a user friendly kind of place (a quality I actually mostly like).

dominic is no ray of sunshine but his logic is hard to argue with (though he doesn't take into account other factors whcih might be important for some).

But you just seem to want as many non-Polish people (doesn't matter where or why or how) to come to Poland as possible which doesn't seem to serve anyone's interests very well.


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