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Mentally ill people in British society


WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
24 Nov 2013 #1
This might be a bit controversial but here it goes. So wondering through the streets of Britain, you are likely to see a lot of mentally ill people on the streets. I assume they are allowed to be there, so that they feel more normal, if they are in society, but I do wonder if it would be better to them have somewhere separate. I mean, the amount of times that you see some insane person shouting out or talking to himself in London, is staggering. Most people try to ignore it, but I don't think it is right. I don't think we should have to just pretend it's normal. I understand that some people are ill, but they should have their areas to live in. Is it common in Poland to see a lot of mentally ill people on the street? By common I mean almost all the time [every or every other day even]. Remember I don't mean disabled people, I mean mentally ill people.
f stop 25 | 2,513
24 Nov 2013 #2
Interesting... Do you feel equally uncomfortable around people with other handicaps, like blind, or people in wheelchairs? I mean, it's not "normal" either. Why only town idiots should be hidden out of sight?
OP WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
24 Nov 2013 #3
Well with most handicaps it just relates to something that people cannot do, like see, hear, walk etc. They are not insane though, they are just impaired in some way. I just don't like the idea that is is politically incorrect for somebody to find it odd, if they are sitting in a cafe, and a mentally ill person who is sitting with their carer, starts to yell loudly and knocks his bowl of soup or whatever else, on the floor, then starts to swear at his carer. You just have to sit there and be like, ah it's okay, they are insane, and keep eating your food while that person's carer also acts like it's normal, and often ignores it. I mean what kind of a civilized society is this? What if some of these people are dangerous. I have heard of numerous instances when somebody was attacked by a person who was later found to be mentally unstable. Then they don't even get sent to prison, but to a mental institution, where they should have been in the first place.
f stop 25 | 2,513
24 Nov 2013 #4
"What if they're dangerous" argument is a cop out. Dangerous ones are supposed to be locked up. Plus, really dangerous ones act more normal.

But really, this puzzles me.. why are we so uncomfortable around mentally ill?
OP WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
24 Nov 2013 #5
"What if they're dangerous" argument is a cop out. Dangerous ones are supposed to be locked up.

Yeah supposed to be, but very often they are not.

But really, this puzzles me.. why are we so uncomfortable around mentally ill?

Hey I knew this topic was not going to be very 'PC.' If you want to pretend that you are happy be around the mentally ill, and if you see someone that is mentally ill, you don't move away, that's up to you. I prefer to be honest. It is not normal. I am not blaming them, there is not much they can do about it, but there needs to be a much better system than the current on in Britain, that basically says, they're just mentally ill, accept it, ignore it, whatever, they can go where they want.

Anyway my original question was not answered. Is it a normality in Poland for mentally ill people to be around the city. Do you often see them in the streets, in cafe's, in shop etc. I was told, by Polish peeps, that is it not a common occurrence in Poland.

Other Eastern Europeans I know were also shocked by how many mental people are around here in the UK. I am assuming f stop that you live in Poland? So you might not see it as much, that's why you don't mind it and defend it.
johnb121 4 | 184
24 Nov 2013 #6
but they should have their areas to live in

I find your whole approach offensive. Are you REALLY suggesting that an illness is something you feel should be hidden away and, in effect, imprisoned? The British tried that - those moserable old Victorian asylums that until 30 or so years ago still operated on the outskirts of the bigger cities and "hospitals" which were very variable in approach. An old gentleman I knew suffered from depression and regularly ordered into hospital for electro-convulsive therapy, but otherwise lived in his home with his lovely wife - are you suggesting HE should have been locked up? Imprisoning the mentally ill who can function in society is a sign of a primitive and cruel society, one which punishes the "different".

I accept that some people are criminally insane - and for them there are secure units in hospitals, etc. But anyone who CAN function in society without being in some way a danger to themselves or other people deserves every help we can given them to enable them to do just that.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
24 Nov 2013 #7
I do wonder if it would be better to them have somewhere separate

How would you feel if a close family member developed mental illness and was locked away, unable to access the outside world?

For instance, I know someone who has a father that developed mental illness. He was working hard for many years, had a very good job and was in a decent position in life. One of his projects miserably failed - and he had an extended bout in hospital as a result. These days, he still suffers from the consequences of that - but the hospital got him in a position where he's able to lead a somewhat normal life. Your suggestion that they should "live somewhere separate" is highly insulting.

I mean, the amount of times that you see some insane person shouting out or talking to himself in London, is staggering.

How do you know it's mental illness and not something else?

but they should have their areas to live in.

Not a bad idea. Nazi Germany certainly started with the mentally ill, and I believe (Harry will no doubt correct me) that many mentally ill Polish prisoners were executed in Poznan.

What if some of these people are dangerous. I have heard of numerous instances when somebody was attacked by a person who was later found to be mentally unstable.

I think the clue is in "later found to be". The Polish chap that went beserk on Jersey was a great example. Or do you think anyone that doesn't feel great should be locked up for the sake of society?

Yeah supposed to be, but very often they are not.

Source?

The thing is that we usually don't know about such people being dangerous until after they committed the crimes.

Anyway my original question was not answered. Is it a normality in Poland for mentally ill people to be around the city. Do you often see them in the streets, in cafe's, in shop etc. I was told, by Polish peeps, that is it not a common occurrence in Poland.

No, in Poland, they are ostracised and kept in institutions well away from the public eye.

Other Eastern Europeans I know were also shocked by how many mental people are around here in the UK.

That's because the UK takes the humane approach and lets people live in society and accepts them for who they are rather than the Russian mentality of locking them up.

WP, how would you feel if a family member was locked up in an institution even though they were capable of living a disturbed, but relatively normal life?
OP WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
24 Nov 2013 #8
If someone has a family member who is mentally ill, but you can still visit them, then I don't see the issue. A lot of these people probably don't understand that they are segregated anyway [if they are.] Obviously we have different degrees on insanity and I'm not saying that is someone is slightly mentally unstable, they should immediately be locked up, nor am I saying we should be putting these people in prisons or anything resembling prisons. Let them have an entire town if they want, just don't try to force them on the public.

Let me flip the question delph. How would you feel if you were out with members of your family, having a meal, when suddenly a mentally ill person near you started to shout, throw food and generally flip out, to the point where ignoring them and enjoying your meal was not possible. Would you not agree that it would be better if they ate their meal in a different environment? Personally I agree with the Polish way much more than the British approach. Like I said though, there are different degrees of insanity. If somebody just has weird habits and mutters to themselves, that's different, but if they constantly shout at people or randomly yell stuff out in public areas, that is hard to ignore.
f stop 25 | 2,513
24 Nov 2013 #9
but if they constantly shout at people or randomly yell stuff out in public areas, that is hard to ignore.

Children must bother you too, huh?.

I much prefer the idea of the town idiots roaming around rather then the possibility that they're chained and mistreated in somewhere out of sight.\

Keep in mind that mental illness is my retirement plan. ;)
Harry
24 Nov 2013 #10
One has to wonder about the mental health of the drunks one sees staggering round town (admittedly in lower numbers than in years gone by). How many of them are self-medicating?
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
24 Nov 2013 #11
If someone has a family member who is mentally ill, but you can still visit them, then I don't see the issue.

And what if you can't see them because of various rules, what if you're being told one thing by the hospital and yet they are telling you another, and so on and so on?

Let them have an entire town if they want, just don't try to force them on the public.

Who is forcing them on the public? They are people, WP, like you and me.

Let me flip the question delph. How would you feel if you were out with members of your family, having a meal, when suddenly a mentally ill person near you started to shout, throw food and generally flip out, to the point where ignoring them and enjoying your meal was not possible.

I'd think that they suffered from autism, not mental illness.

Would you not agree that it would be better if they ate their meal in a different environment?

Why shouldn't they have the right to eat the meal in the same environment as me? They could be perfectly fine 99% of the time, I'm not going to segregate someone for the sake of the occasional incident.

People used to think it was acceptable to segregate people according to race, too. Advanced societies know better.

Personally I agree with the Polish way much more than the British approach.

That's because you've got no real experience with it.
Avalon 4 | 1,068
24 Nov 2013 #12
Personally I agree with the Polish way much more than the British approach.

but if they constantly shout at people or randomly yell stuff out in public areas, that is hard to ignore.

I prefer the British system. Every 5 years, we elect these people and send them to this big asylum called the houses of Parliament (this is why you see so many of them around London) Although they shout and scream at each other all day, they only seem to be able to hurt and annoy most of the population, especially the indigenous English, most others they seem to like. After 5 or 10 years they are deemed cured and we elect another 650 to take their place, any more than this number are sent to Brussels as part of an international agreement.
Ironside 49 | 10,305
24 Nov 2013 #13
Those days there are lots of people with their brain damaged by the overuse of drugs.
Vincent 9 | 806 Moderator
24 Nov 2013 #14
So wondering through the streets of Britain, you are likely to see a lot of mentally ill people on the streets. I assume they are allowed to be there, so that they feel more normal,

You make it sound like the UK has a plague of mentally ill people roaming the streets like zombies. How do you know that these people are all mentally ill, and not some drug addicts or alcoholics? There are mentally ill people in my city too, but they stay in residential homes and and looked after by carers. If they have go out onto the streets there is also a carer with them at all times, so they are no risk to society. Perhaps you just watch too many zombie movies?
Maybe 12 | 409
24 Nov 2013 #15
@OP. wow.....where does one start! I would advise you learn a little more about this topic before you start posting on the forum.

You are entitled to have and voice your opinion, however, the concept of segregating people because they are different from you and offend you sensibilities is a dangerous path to tread.

Hitler segregated, Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals and the mental incapacitated, after segregating them and convincing the public that because these groups were different that they were lesser beings.

He went and F8CKING GASSED THEM!

if they are sitting in a cafe, and a mentally ill person who is sitting with their carer, starts to yell loudly and knocks his bowl of soup or whatever else, on the floor, then starts to swear at his carer. You just have to sit there and be like, ah it's okay, they are insane, and keep eating your food while that person's carer also acts like it's normal, and often ignores it. I mean what kind of a civilized society is this?

The person you would have witnessed almost certainly was autistic. Yes it can be upsetting and disturbing if an autistic person flips out near you, that I understand. The majority of the time these poor souls are in institutions, however, to lock them out of sight is inhumane, they have as much right to life as an able bodied and able minded person.

I have dealt with people who have suffered from mental illness, drug induced psychosis, those on the autistic spectrum and those with dementia. I have no experience of the mentally incapacitated. The term Moron was actually a medical term created to describe the mentally incapacitated, unfortunately the word has now become misused, so I use the term Mentally Incapacitated. This is very different from being mentally ill. However, the confusion starts with the fact that the Mentally Incapacitated people may well suffer from a mentally illness as well.

Everyday you walk around London you are surrounded by people will mental illnesses, addictions, OCDs however, they act like 'normal' people . The people to whom you refer are Mental Incapacitated or autistic. BIG difference.
Wroclaw Boy
24 Nov 2013 #16
but I do wonder if it would be better to them have somewhere separate.

Only if they are a danger to themselves and/or others.
szkotja2007 27 | 1,499
24 Nov 2013 #17
a lot of mentally ill people

Please define mental ill health.
Have you never had poor mental health - anxiety about paying a bill or having a grief reaction ?
What help did you need at that time ?
What would have happened if you didn't get that help ?

Get yourself a book about mental health and start at page 1.
ObscureMiss - | 3
25 Nov 2013 #18
Please define what you mean by "mentally ill" and "insane" because someone you define as suffering from psychological or neurological/psychiatric illnesses is not necessarily insane. Mental illness is a very vague term. It sounds like you would rather live in Nazi Germany.

I have an eating disorder, high levels of anxiety, and in many ways pretty much emotionally unstable, yet I am an educated woman and can support myself and it is unlikely you would be able to tell if you knew me in real life. Unless you lived with me or a coworker for a long time you probably would not even have an idea. I am to some degree "mentally ill" but no I am not insane, because I know for example, that my eating rituals are odd. To me "insane" implies someone who is very manic or psychotic or has some kind of intellectual issues. Despite the fact that these "insane" people are difficult to be around, I think that is a very cruel and irresponsible idea, that they should be locked up or cut off from society. Everyone has a right to exist in a public place. With the same logic you could send all the people with any health defect to gas chambers, really.

The percentage of "mentally ill" people that actually commit violence is very low. Did you ever consider the fact that you might actually be overly anxious, worrying about a threat when there is no threat?
smurf 39 | 1,981
25 Nov 2013 #19
I find your whole approach offensive.

+1
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,848
25 Nov 2013 #20
"don't try to force them on the public"
they ARE the public you tool.
my brother has 'paranoid schizophrenia' and is a better person than you will ever be.

also what you describe are people with severe learning difficulties, autism, and so on, these people are NOT mentally ill.
As other people have pointed out, you do not know who has a mental health problem around you, they look just like you.
When for example, your mother dies, you might hear voices or disassociate for a short time, and at that time, you too will be 'mentally ill'.

The people and scenarios you describe did not happen 30 years ago for at that time such people were locked away in institutions, in case their being out in public offended anyone. IMO it is a mark of a more evolved and civilised society that all of the public uses public space, why shouldnt they?

In some countries in Europe you don't see such people cos they are destroyed at birth, perhaps thrown down an old well or locked away in a back room.

If you think that is a good thing, I pity you.
,
Laur3 - | 2
25 Nov 2013 #21
Worried that you even felt the need to express these views and make the distinction that you were discussing 'mentally ill' people not 'disabled' people, like that would make it any better!

My faith in humanity has been restored though, reading through the replies, nothing more to be said!
peterweg 37 | 2,321
25 Nov 2013 #22
Is it common in Poland to see a lot of mentally ill people on the street? By common I mean almost all the time [every or every other day even]. Remember I don't mean disabled people, I mean mentally ill people.

Its far more common to see mentally ill (drunks) people in Poland than in the UK, the US is even worse. London has the biggest problem in the UK, attracting so many from around the world. In Poland they are in every village.

In the UK the mentally ill are sectioned or hospitalised quickly.

if they are sitting in a cafe, and a mentally ill person who is sitting with their carer,

Hmm , so actually you object to sick people being cared in the community? lol.
OP WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
25 Nov 2013 #23
It seems a lot of people hear are saying that it was autistic people I am describing, rather than mentally ill people. I think being an autistic person is similar to being a mentally ill person. Something is screwed up in their head that makes them yell out obscenities. So therefore something is wrong with the mental state?

Let me ask this question. Is it wrong if say, a restaurant owner, refuses to let a mentally ill [or autistic, if you don't consider that mentally ill] person in, because they wouldn't want other customers, who have paid a lot of money to have a pleasant meal, to be disturbed?
smurf 39 | 1,981
25 Nov 2013 #24
Is it wrong if say,

It's called discrimination, duh.
Go volunteer in a home for mentally ill people and your heart will melt, a bit of empathy/sympathy might even make you into a decent human being.
OP WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
25 Nov 2013 #25
Right I see, so he has no right to do it and other people who wanted to have a pleasant meal just have to accept that there might be someone there that ruins it by shouting and making a mess at their table, however, they are mentally ill, so they just need to get on with it and eat their food.
peterweg 37 | 2,321
25 Nov 2013 #26
You don't own the public space and its semi-public we have laws to protect us against your type.
Ironside 49 | 10,305
25 Nov 2013 #27
Let me ask this question. Is it wrong if say, a restaurant owner, refuses to let a mentally ill [or autistic, if you don't consider that mentally ill] person in, because they wouldn't want other customers, who have paid a lot of money to have a pleasant meal, to be disturbed?

That is a very good qestion and one I'm not going to answer. However mentally ill people is not right or factual description of people with learning disability.

You don't own the public space and its semi-public we have laws to protect us against your type.

People can be alarmed and disturbed, nobody can be forced to be emphatic.
smurf 39 | 1,981
25 Nov 2013 #28
Right I see

I don't think you do.

I suppose you also kick up a stink when a small baby cries and you have to share the same area as it.
OP WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
25 Nov 2013 #29
You bet your ass. I don't like the term 'kick up a stink' though.

Hey if a baby starts to cry in a public area and the parents just let it cry 'because it's a baby,' then you bet it ****** me off. In Church is the worst. To me, if the parents don't deal with the crying baby, it shows they are just bad parents.
pam
25 Nov 2013 #30
If someone has a family member who is mentally ill, but you can still visit them, then I don't see the issue.

Would you want a member of your family locked away in some hospital/Institution?
What if a child of yours was diagnosed with Autism for example? Or a parent who develops Dementia?
You'd be perfectly happy for them to be removed from society? First sign of what you would deem 'unacceptable behaviour', and you'd whisk them away so as not to offend the general public?

I would hope that you would do what any normal person would do. Allow them to live their lives to the full.


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