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Poland's apartment prices continue to fall


grubas 12 | 1,391
28 Jul 2011  #121
So who is buying all the apartments that have flown up all over the place? Who if not Poles? I certainly haven't seen hoards of foreigners here.

Foraigners should never be allowed to buy any properties in Poland because they put too much pressure on prices.In 2001 I bought 2 small 40 sq m flats in "communist" blocks but in good locations.1 in Poznan for 61k PLN and 1 in £ódź for 55k PLN.Paid cash for both.Both are rented and I already got my money back.I would love to buy more of them at these prices but because of the God damn foraigners they are like 3 times more expensive now.Screw you foraigners!
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
28 Jul 2011  #122
So you've bought up more property than you need for the sole purpose of charging rent (profit) and you're saying it's foreigners who are the problem? Maybe foreigners are doing the same thing as you but how can you justify your actions but attack theirs?

What about Poles abroad, how do you feel about them driving down the price of labour or living 20 to a flat and driving up the cost of rents?
pip 10 | 1,661
28 Jul 2011  #123
What about Poles abroad, how do you feel about them driving down the price of labour or living 20 to a flat and driving up the cost of rents?

It is the classic Polish double standard- don't you know yet??
Avalon 4 | 1,068
28 Jul 2011  #124
No worse than Milky who thinks that developers should sell flats/apartments for less than it costs to build them and he is still deluded enough to believe this is going to happen.
OP peterweg 36 | 2,316
28 Jul 2011  #125
He already has.
He's in the U.S.

I'm talking about Poland leaving the EU, its the only way to stop speculators. WTF would care if he's in the US?

I didn't see any Polish builders lowering their prices so that the consumer can save a few zlots. They are just as greedy as any foreign investor.

Indeed, rising prices benefit existing property owners. The vast majority of whom are Polish.

No worse than Milky who thinks that developers should sell flats/apartments for less than it costs to build them and he is still deluded enough to believe this is going to happen.

If you are bankrupt/repossessed you won't have any say in the matter, will you? In any case you sell at a price that someone is willing to pay and the market decides what that is.
Avalon 4 | 1,068
28 Jul 2011  #126
In any case you sell at a price that someone is willing to pay and the market decides what that is.

You mean like, petrol, water, gas, electricity? My, you are privaliged if you can pay what you want for these. I bow down to a superior being,

or maybe you just don't think to clearly before you write.
milky 13 | 1,657
28 Jul 2011  #127
If you are bankrupt/repossessed you won't have any say in the matter, will you? In any case you sell at a price that someone is willing to pay and the market decides what that is.

Good point. Look at all the people from the West who bought property in Hungary in 2005-07, they would be delighted to get back what they paid.
f stop 25 | 2,513
28 Jul 2011  #128
fig.net/pub/fig2011/papers/ts07j/ts07j_czarnecka_5274.pdf
trulia.com/real_estate/Poland-New_York/market-trends/
milky 13 | 1,657
28 Jul 2011  #129
after Financial Crisis??
Is the world crises over??
scottie1113 7 | 898
28 Jul 2011  #130
trulia.com/real_estate/Poland-New_York/market-trends/

What do the prices in Poland, New York have to do with the prices in Poland? Poland, the country.
f stop 25 | 2,513
29 Jul 2011  #131
What do the prices in Poland, New York

ooops!
OP peterweg 36 | 2,316
29 Jul 2011  #132
ou mean like, petrol, water, gas, electricity? My, you are privaliged if you can pay what you want for these. I bow down to a superior being,
or maybe you just don't think to clearly before you write.

Those are commodities you have to consume, property are fixed assets that are optional and discretionary purchases.

You, a developer, attach commodities (building materials/labour) into a fixed asset. The fixed assets is most of the profit and its what makes you a speculator, the price of land.

There is no limit on the price of property, its a completely illiquid asset, becuase its fixed by location. Its price isn't determined by its worth, but by the availability of willing customers and that is determined by the availability of credit. Due to the excessive valuations of property world wide, the ability of banks to conjurer up money has expired.

All the money in the world, not just this year, but for the next 20 years, has been spent. Thats why property prices have stopped rising, there isn't any more money left.

Not surprisingly discretionary spending, such as property speculation, is being cut back to fund essentials consumables, such as electricity, gas, food and water.

Good look with the attempt to portray property speculation as one of life essentials, alongside food and water.

Is the world crises over??

Nope, the real crash will happen soon and all the ammunition to prevent it has been used up.
Avalon 4 | 1,068
29 Jul 2011  #133
Those are commodities you have to consume, property are fixed assets that are optional and discretionary purchases.

So a roof over your head is a discretionary purchase? Whether you rent or buy, you still need it.
I notice you left out petrol, but of course, you still have the option to walk, impracticable for most people, but still an option.

You, a developer, attach commodities (building materials/labour) into a fixed asset.

At least what I build will actually, phisically, exist and is a "tangible asset", unlike shares and CDS's which are just bits of paper. You cannot live in a pile of paper.
OP peterweg 36 | 2,316
29 Jul 2011  #134
So a roof over your head is a discretionary purchase? Whether you rent or buy, you still need it.
I notice you left out petrol, but of course, you still have the option to walk, impracticable for most people, but still an option.

I don't need to include every commodity they are all requiored in varying amounts.

At least what I build will actually, phisically, exist and is a "tangible asset", unlike shares and CDS's which are just bits of paper. You cannot live in a pile of paper.

Land prices are an intangible asset and in most cases the major part of the cost of building. You could build a house out of paper, but it would still cost a fortune in the centre of London and almost nothing in the middle off Polands countryside. You don't sell the building materials+cost of labour +profit, you add on cost of location which is almost the same as a share price (less so as shares tend to be include a real income, fixed assets and cash in the bank).

Here,a part paper house for your amusement

emagazine.com/archive/3012
Avalon 4 | 1,068
29 Jul 2011  #135
I don't need to include every commodity they are all required in varying amounts.

No, you are just very selective like Milky.

When its -30 in Poland, I call roof over my head a necessity. We are discussing Poland in Europe, are we?
milky 13 | 1,657
29 Jul 2011  #136
No, you are just very selective like Milky.

Selective lol , you're the one who denies the existence of a property bubble,and also,
the fact that it was significantly funded, by the billions of euros earned by Poles in the West.

At least what I build will actually, phisically, exist and is a "tangible asset", unlike shares

nonsense,there is no difference.
Avalon 4 | 1,068
29 Jul 2011  #137
you're the one who denies the existence of a property bubble

I and several others.
milky 13 | 1,657
29 Jul 2011  #138
groupthink
Avalon 4 | 1,068
29 Jul 2011  #139
Exactly. A lone voice in the wilderness is seldom heard.
poland_
29 Jul 2011  #140
Maybe

Here you go Milky, both you and WB will enjoy this video.

w3.newsmax.com/a/aftershockb/video.cfm?PROMO_CODE=CACB-1
OP peterweg 36 | 2,316
1 Aug 2011  #141
Apartments to be had at bargain prices

Sellers are negotiating as much as 10% off prices, a study finds

Experts say that the best time to buy an apartment is in the summer
Shutterstock

Currently 65 percent of apartments on sale have been waiting for a buyer for longer than two months, Dziennik Gazeta Prawna reports, citing a study by Open Finance and Oferty.net. Sellers are therefore desperately lowering prices and are willing to negotiate as much as up to 10 percent off advertised amounts, the report states.

"In reality the declines in prices of real estate may be now larger than official data indicates," Marcin Drohomirecki, an analyst at Oferty.net, told the paper.

In June alone, prices fell in 11 out of 18 surveyed Polish cities. Experts point out that summer is the best time to buy apartment and warn that in the fall prices will stop falling - some owners will decide to lease the apartments out.

wbj.pl/article-55520-apartments-to-be-had-at-bargain-prices.html

No, you are just very selective like Milky.

When its -30 in Poland, I call roof over my head a necessity. We are discussing Poland in Europe, are we?

I am not the one who doesn't understand the difference between a commodity and property. Have a read secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Commodity.

A roof doesn't require you to buy it, you can rent. You can also live with your parents.

Buying is optional.

Buying commodities such as food, fuel, water is not optional, they cannot be hired as they are consumed.
milky 13 | 1,657
1 Aug 2011  #142
Exactly. A lone voice in the wilderness is seldom heard.

Well, I'll let Bob answer the Neo-Lib developer

I'll walk to the deepths of the deepest black forest
Where the people are a many and their hands are all empty
Where the pellets of poison are flooding their waters
Where the home in the valley meets the damp dirty prison
Where the executioner's face is always well hidden
Where hunger is ugly, where souls are forgotten
Where black is the color, where none is the number
And I'll tell and think it and speak it and breathe it
And reflect it from the mountain so all souls can see it
Then I'll stand on the ocean until I start sinkin'
But I'll know my songs well before I start singin'
And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, and it's a hard
It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.
dr_rabbit 5 | 90
1 Aug 2011  #143
We're thinking of moving to Warsaw in between 18 months and 2 years time.

I'll potentially have 750K PLN to spend on an apartment. I'm thinking of a place with 2 decent bedrooms, a separate hall, a decent kitchen-living room, and at least 1.5 bathrooms. What I am wondering is:

Whether that sort of money can get me something at the above specs, near a metro station, in a small-medium development (preferably 30 or less units, but maybe 50-60)?

What monthly or yearly costs there will be- ground rents / land value taxes / municipal rates / building association levies?

Whether I can get a reasonable house (preferably detached) anywhere decent to live in one of Warsaw's suburbs for similar money?

Whether 1 month around easter next year would be enough time to scope out and finalise a sale?

Whether I should just rent and save myself a whole lot of money and not tie myself down to a depreciating asset?
Avalon 4 | 1,068
1 Aug 2011  #144
Peterweg, It was stated 2 years ago that asking prices for properties had dropped by around 10%, so whats new?, everyone knows that there was a correction but 10% does not constitute a crash. Yes, I admitted you can rent, but, if the rent is the same or more than the cost of a mortgage, if you intend to stay in the same place for a long time you might as well have an asset, which, even if you sell at the same price you paid, you have still lived rent free.

Milky, the song is about 40 years old, just like the links and data you provide about property. You will still be singing the same song in 2 years time.
cms 9 | 1,272
1 Aug 2011  #145
But rent is far lower than mortgage payments at the moment - rent for a 50 sqm place is about PLN 1400 here in Poznan and the cost is at least PLN 300k.

Assume a 10% deposit and 6% APR over 20 years and that leaves a mortgage payment of PLN 1.900. The PLN 500 gap to renting is circa 20% of an average wage earners disposable income. On top of that then Jan Q Pole would also have to find PLN 30.000 for a deposit - 18 months disposable income.

The numbers for property prices just do not add up at the moment. Apart from dishing out personal abuse to Milky and quibbing about a crash v a correction then there's not a lot rationale behind your statements.

As a final point none of the price data shown seems to take into account the incentives given now - free parking space or garage, holidays etc which make the actual prices lower
OP peterweg 36 | 2,316
1 Aug 2011  #146
Peterweg, It was stated 2 years ago that asking prices for properties had dropped by around 10%, so whats new?,

The article is dated, 1st August 2011.

So this is in addition to the previous 10%, add on two years of around 5% inflation and you have 30% fall from peak.

Continuing falling prices constitutes a crash, so its new.

if the rent is the same or more than the cost of a mortgage,

Are rents anywhere near the level you can pay for a mortgage? Rental income seems pathetically low, not surprising given the low wages (in Krakow that is).
milky 13 | 1,657
1 Aug 2011  #147
But rent is far lower than mortgage payments at the moment

EXACTLY!! so people have to understand that the logical thing to do, is to refuse to pay the prices; give the finger to all the shype from the hawks in real estate pûrn.And RENT an apartment until sanity returns.
tpenn - | 2
1 Aug 2011  #148
that's good for the people.
Hope same thing happens in US.
Avalon 4 | 1,068
1 Aug 2011  #149
And RENT an apartment until sanity returns.

Care to make a prediction on when that may happen? or maybe I should re-post your past ones from 2009-2010-2011 and while we are still waiting.......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
milky 13 | 1,657
1 Aug 2011  #150
So this is in addition to the previous 10%, add on two years of around 5% inflation and you have 30% fall from peak.

Continuing falling prices constitutes a crash, so its new.

[/quote]

Good point, and I reckon it's far from bottoming out yet.


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