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Astounded by the poor value of residential property here in Wroclaw


OP InWroclaw 89 | 1,915
1 Feb 2013 #31
you get high rents for small flats

You ain't kidding, I'm still reeling from the shock of what's on offer for the money.

The answer is simple - people in Poland do not rent flats , they own them !

Is that why there's such a thriving rental market that agents don't even want to put me on their mailing list unless I want to rent higher end flats. Is that why most are let within a day or two if they're even remotely "cheap"? Is all this because Poles own and don't rent? Don't be silly.
pawian 180 | 17,057
1 Feb 2013 #32
you get high rents for small flats

Yes, high rents in university cities like Wrocław, Krakow, Warszawa etc. They host hundreds of thousands of students who rent flats and push up prices. I am sorry. Try towns and villages near Wrocław - much cheaper.
zetigrek
1 Feb 2013 #33
Is that why there's such a thriving rental market that agents don't even want to put me on their mailing list unless I want to rent higher end flats. Is that why most are let within a day or two if they're even remotely "cheap"? Is all this because Poles own and don't rent? Don't be silly.

Mostly students rent flats, or young married couples before they make decision to take a mortgage and buy a flat.
OP InWroclaw 89 | 1,915
1 Feb 2013 #34
Yes, I have seen that to be true -- I doubt it makes up the whole rental market, however.

I have been told that the flats at prices similar to the UK depend on dual working couples funding the rent and that singles in flats, even 1-bed flats, are very rare for that reason.
monia 3 | 212
1 Feb 2013 #35
Don't be silly.

You are so silly claiming this rubbish . You probably don`t speak Polish , that`s why you can`t read statistics , newspapers or data included in the internet . So , you have no idea about the surrounding world .

There is no real flat rental market in Poland and it is rather undeveloped in English or German terms . Because there is no big demand for rental flats there is a shortage in supply . That`s why you are on the waiting list.

Use your google translator to read this article , maybe you will understand the subject and Poland`s reality in a matter of housing market .

Many years ago there was a similar situation with commercial rental space . But today this market is expanding with such a force that the new office buildings in Warsaw for example are constructed with unprecedented progress on the world scale .

The real estate market built and purchased for the purpose of commercial rent in Poland is still in its infancy - this is the conclusion from the latest Eurostat report on the European housing. Although their lives more or less the same percentage of the population , as in the old EU countries , however, the lease on a commercial basis only uses 2.2 percent . residents. It's not much , but the trend is growing.

According to Eurostat data , for 100 apartments in Poland almost 31 occupied by persons who are not entitled to them the right of ownership . Poland ranks the seventh in Europe, and ranks among the wealthier Western countries. Similarly, for example . In the UK, the Netherlands and Luxembourg.


This is the newest project in the financial district in Warsaw



OP InWroclaw 89 | 1,915
2 Feb 2013 #36
I'm not on a waiting list -- the agents are simply not interested in people on my budget because applicants on my budget are 10 a penny.

There are a lot of flats listed in the higher price brackets. There is therefore a thriving rental market or the prices wouldn't be so high because they'd need to tempt tenants at lower prices! Penny dropped yet? Good. Goodnight, and please don't argue with someone who has done the legwork on the ground here for some months now.
monia 3 | 212
2 Feb 2013 #37
I don`t want to argue with you , but if you say something , think before . Only 2.2 % of people rent flats in Poland .
There is a market for renting flats among students mainly . So this market exists , but don`t tell me that this sector demands high priced flats . So I think the value of an average flat can`t be so high in Poland . In student cities the value is overpriced for obvious reasons - like eg. Warsaw etc.
OP InWroclaw 89 | 1,915
2 Feb 2013 #38
Monia, which part of Wrocław do you live in? Don't give me a street, just a district.

Because I can tell you for sure there are a great many (page after page with many on each page) of flats available to rent at about 2500PLN to 5000PLN when I check. If there were no tenants, they would not be asking that price and they would ask a lot less just to cover the monthly service charges. The fact that so many landlords keep their prices in that zone tells you all you need to know about the rental market here. Don't come at me with percentages -- the fact is there are tenants for expensive flats and so there are plenty of expensive flats on offer. You don't get one without the other -- supply and demand. Now, you're not going to tell me that students are clubbing together and renting expensive flats I hope :o)

Believe me -- there are plenty of tenants chasing cheap flats and an adequate supply of tenants for the more expensive flats or they'd not be that price. Goodnight, and thanks for the debate.
peterweg 37 | 2,319
2 Feb 2013 #39
Monia is right. 95% of Poles live in either very low rent or completely mortgage free homes. Most paid 20k for two room apartment or inherited it.

My wifes familiy have three apartments (owned out right) and a country house (with a loan) between the five members, plus the parents live in government supplied house. They don't think this is anything special.

One forest worker was sold a lovely house on three ha of land next to the forest for 2k pln after his father died on the job.

Because I can tell you for sure there are a great many (page after page with many on each page) of flats available to rent at about 2500PLN to 5000PLN when I check. If there were no tenants, they would not be asking that price and they would ask a lot less just to cover the monthly service charges. The fact that so many landlords keep their prices in that zone tells you all you need to know about the rental market here.

I'm not so sure..

If they own their flat they can afford to wait a long time to get a tenant. We had no takers in Krakow, loads of adverts because there were loads of empty flats, not tenants

For another ten or twenty thousand quid, you've got a reasonable 3-room flat in towns within an hour by train of London!!!

Of course 10-15 average earning property prices are no sign of a fundamental mismatch of asset price versus intrinsic values. No sir, no bubble here.
jon357 69 | 18,363
2 Feb 2013 #40
There is no real flat rental market in Poland

That would come as a surprise to those thousands of people who own flats for rental plus the huge numbers of letting agents.

There is therefore a thriving rental market

There is indeed.

If they own their flat they can afford to wait a long time to get a tenant. We had no takers in Krakow, loads of adverts because there were loads of empty flats, not tenants

So yes, there is indeed a big rental market.
peterweg 37 | 2,319
2 Feb 2013 #41
So yes, there is indeed a big rental market.

As a percent, its small. But even 2% is a couple of hundred thousand.

Relatively small, which distorts the prices compared to other countries
jon357 69 | 18,363
2 Feb 2013 #42
Relatively small,

Not in Warsaw, wher the market is huge and growing.
pip 10 | 1,659
2 Feb 2013 #43
Many years ago there was a similar situation with commercial rental space . But today this market is expanding with such a force that the new office buildings in Warsaw for example are constructed with unprecedented progress on the world scale.

This is the newest project in the financial district in Warsaw

a lawyer, a doctor and now a specialist in commercial real estate. my husband should hire you as an advisor.

cushwake.com/cwglobal/jsp/newsDetail.jsp?Language=EN&repId=c57500002p&Country=1900176
online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444025204577547011736192638.html
OP InWroclaw 89 | 1,915
2 Feb 2013 #44
Not in Warsaw, wher the market is huge and growing.

I'm not so sure it's

Relatively small

in Wroc, either. What is small is the chance of securing a decent flat at a sensible rent, especially anywhere near TVP Wrocław, etc. Some of the less pretty inner city high rises are available but when you get there to view you find the photos were taken years ago and the interior has deteriorated greatly. You also find the landlord has failed to mention people are still living there and their leaving date is a month or two in the future. One I went to, the family were being evicted the following Saturday and it was very awkward to say the least to walk around their home like a vulture. Obviously I didn't take it.

On the subject of hardship, surprisingly for me, some market stall holders I spoke to today told me the last 2 years has seen too much competition and a drop in their incomes.
ismellnonsense - | 118
2 Feb 2013 #45
On the subject of hardship, surprisingly for me, some market stall holders I spoke to today told me the last 2 years has seen too much competition and a drop in their incomes.

quite possible
more and more people were sending money home
and that money would let such people make a go of such a business
or they might have returned home with cash to start such a business

i do love the culture here of markets
monia 3 | 212
3 Feb 2013 #46
InWroclaw - you should start looking for a flat at the internet, in sites like : domgratka.pl, gumtree.pl, otodom.pl, domiporta.pl, wspollokator.pl. Otherwise you will be treated like an intruder by agencies who deal mainly with selling new developements or renting commercial space as their main trade.

So yes, there is indeed a big rental market.

Don`t you read the data, the big rental market refers to commercial space only. 98 % of Polish live in commercial rent free dwellings.
Why can`t some people argue for just the sake of it. If some information can be called by some as advantageous for Poland, immediately there is a reply that it can`t be possible.

peterweg is right in his statement .
70 % of Polish live in own houses or flats. The rest, that is, to 29.1 percent of housing dwellings include state or municipal premises belonging to TBS, National Forests, Polish railway which is PKP , Polish army - Wojskowa Agencja Mieszkaniowa , etc., which qualifies as a lease according to Eurostat but at non-market prices. The prices are very small and it can`t be put on the market for obvious reasons because it is connected with the job only. If you join the Polish army you will get for an entire lifetime a state owned flat for some pennies, currently it is 4.70 Zl per square meter a month. So it is easy to calculate, the cost could be 250 Zl a month for 2 bedrooms flat. But it is excluded from the commercial market. Most cooperative apartments are also privately owned called in Poland as Spółdzielnia Mieszkaniowa which is not by all means municipal housing, which is a state owned dwelling which is called TBS. TBS counts for 5 % of the whole market, which is not much. Some foreigners misinterpret those two types TBS with SM - komunalne i spółdzielcze. "Komunalne” means municipal housing, spółdzielcze means owned by cooperative, which a form of private ownership with is given rights of voting and deciding about common property and it management of common spaces like green areas, repair funds.

After filtering the percentage turns out that in terms of a commercial lease it pertains to only 2% of people.
peterweg 37 | 2,319
3 Feb 2013 #47
Not in Warsaw, wher the market is huge and growing.

Warsaw really sounds like its on another planet from the rest of Poland, which is not surprising.
milky 13 | 1,657
3 Feb 2013 #48
some parts of Britain look like good value by comparison! I can get a 3-room

How much would the monthly maintenance fee be for a 50 M flat outside an average UK city? In Poland its seems to be about 3-400 zloty.
OP InWroclaw 89 | 1,915
3 Feb 2013 #49
The monthly service charge and ground rent in a block in a UK town is generally from GBP40 to GBP100 a month. In a conversion (a house made into flats) there may only be the ground rent, which would typically be much less, sometimes as little as GBP10 annually. That's often referred to as a peppercorn rent.

In a major UK city the figures above are generally revised upwards.

Here's a 1-bed and perhaps 50m2 Herts flat in a block and its charges of 80 quid a month. Ground Rent & Service Charges - £240 per quarter approx.[/i]

Here's another at 40 quid a month:

Lease Details
Lease Length - 125 years from 1988
Ground Rent - £10 per annum
Service Charges - £116 per quarter (based on 2012 figures up to 31st March 2013).

peterweg 37 | 2,319
3 Feb 2013 #50
It includes heating, water and cleaning in our block
milky 13 | 1,657
3 Feb 2013 #51
The monthly service charge and ground rent in a block in a UK town is generally from GBP40 to GBP100 a month.

so!! much the same
ismellnonsense - | 118
3 Feb 2013 #52
price not including water, heating, gas in the uk
OP InWroclaw 89 | 1,915
3 Feb 2013 #53
Good point although I forgot to point out something really important to the forum: the cost of rent when you rent a flat in the UK will almost always include the monthly service charge. In my experience here in Wroc, the rents almost always exclude the monthly service charge.
ismellnonsense - | 118
4 Feb 2013 #54
In my experience here in Wroc, the rents almost always exclude the monthly service charge.

that is because many of the charges arent fixed

for instance
i pay around 220zl a month for heating
but because we administrate our own apartment complex
our complex is incredibly warm as a result of being built well with excellent insulation
as a consequence
i get most of that money back every year
OP InWroclaw 89 | 1,915
4 Feb 2013 #55
that is because many of the charges arent fixed

I know, they do some sort of average price, like the UK energy companies try to do with readings there, although I refuse and always say to them there I will pay on receipt of a bill following a real meter reading instead of paying a fixed sum every month and waiting for a rebate.

But, as you can guess, my point was that Wroclaw rents are even worse value because they don't include service charges, unlike the UK's.
jwojcie 2 | 763
15 Feb 2013 #56
What is small is the chance of securing a decent flat at a sensible rent, especially anywhere near TVP Wrocław

Well InWroclaw... you do know that you are looking for a place in one of the costlier areas of Wrocław...? :-)
I certainly understand the logic which says that a place in the costly area of provincial European town should be cheaper than a place in some no name town 1 hour by train outside of London which is obviously global mega city... On the other hand every agglomeration has its own dynamics... So sorry, but there is no linear function here. Little town is a little town regardless of where it is. I don't know, probably the issue is "how far is to the nearest cinema/theater/pool/opera/etc"? So maybe you should try flat in Brzeg? Half an hour by train from Wrocław centre, 55m just for 750 PLN a month... ;) :

brzeg.nieruchomosci-online.pl/mieszkanie-w-bloku,po-remoncie/4802935.html. They have great castle by the way...

To be more serious, of course current prices are post bubble prices. But due to lack of serious crisis in Poland + lack of cadastral tax + many things which Monia wrote being actually true, there is no fast fall of prices here. Sorry, but you have to probably wait for inflation and demographic to change the floor... of prices, in real terms, I don't expect nominal to fall much.
bullfrog 6 | 602
21 Feb 2013 #57
Just came across the graph below (see link): globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/Poland/square-meter-prices

Does show that everything is relative. Maybe Wroclaw's real estate is poor value, but how would then qualify the UK real estate market when the average price /sqm is 3 times higher than in Luxembourg or even 6 times higher than in Germany with UK wages much lower than in both countries?
OP InWroclaw 89 | 1,915
21 Feb 2013 #58
Little town is a little town regardless of where it is.

Thanks for your post, but no the town (or actually city) I was referring to isn't little. It is very big and famous and fairly upmarket. Its prices compared to upmarket Wroc seem good value considering the wage possible there v Wroc.
bullfrog 6 | 602
21 Feb 2013 #59
Thanks for your post, but no the town (or actually city) I was referring to isn't little.

The links you posted (post # 50) refer to Stevenage. Now I don't want to appear patronizing, but who's heard of Stevenage outside the UK (or even England)??. And it can hardly be considered as one of the UK's major cities : with ca 90,000 inhabitants, it ranks somewhere around #90 among Britain's top cities by population..
OP InWroclaw 89 | 1,915
21 Feb 2013 #60
I can think of other places, eg Chelmsford. But actually Stevenage is pretty well known. I think you are arguing for the sake of it, you must be a tad bored.

BTW who's heard of Wroclaw or rock-law outside of Poland?

If you're curious, BF, take a look at this, same price as Wroc and the wages potential is x4 in the CITY of Chelmsford, a proper city, and just up the road from London if you want really big money.

I'm not going to argue with you BF, you're plain wrong, and you know it.


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