Astounded by the poor value of residential property here in Wroclaw

Britain is a couple of countries. 90000 is quite a big place. UK is twice the population of Poland so BF, he has a point.

So? My point was that you cann't compare prices of one of the costlier precinct of ~1100000 metro area using some distant suburb even of 15000000 metro area. This comparsion makes sense only if you use for that flats from Brzeg/Oława/etc, 30-60 minutes from the city center. Doesn't matter of how low average salary in Poland is, because still even 1/10 of the population with good salary would give you 110000 people which will crowd you out from the market. On top of that, Monia was right - the market is relatively small in comparision to the city size.

The fundamentals say that prices here are way too high. No amount of denial will change that.

Well I did not deny that, I said previously that those are post buble prices. I'm only pointing out that you are comparing apples with oranges

Hey, InWro, have you tried Google Earth, yet? They've really updated it in the last couple years, and now you can even see real estate and rental listings. Street view is finally available nearly everywhere in town, too.

Thanks, I didn't know they did property listings on their SM thing now, no. I've got some acquaintances here in Wroc keeping an eye out for me, and some cool people on the other thread were kind enough to comment on the clauses on the rental contract, it's all much appreciated.


Not sure that's strictly true, not if you know all the areas I mentioned in my posts, and I do. The TVP Wroc area is one of the better areas but by no means the best. It's the right side of the middle, that's all.

The price of a bought or rented 2-room in Wroc, especially in such 'better' areas, makes good areas of British towns and cities seem a bargain considering the wages.

,


It's all relative. You're looking at it with UK eyes. For most people in Europe, the UK real estate is one which is extremely overpriced (and has been for years) compared to fundamentals (eg wages). The fact that some markets are even more out of kilt (eg Woclaw) doesn't change that.


Again relativity.. Go tell this to a Chinese or even an American. Even by European/UK standards, 90 000 is not big , it is medium. Big for me (for Europe) would be 200,000 plus.


Ha ha , you've made my day inWroclaw..Did you get any history lessons at school? Ask any one around you (especially German speaking people) whether they've heard of Breslau and then try again with Stevenage..

I'm not talking about next door Germany nor other countries nearby that have in the past been part of Poland, I'm talking about internationally. I thought you were talking internationally too, because if you were talking domestically then almost anyone would know where Stevenage is, ditto Chelmsford. So your previous argument unravels like a cheap suit there too.

Nevermind, you've tried your best to make some sort of defence of high property prices, for reasons which are best known to yourself.

(Rest assured, I was told long ago about Poland's history and Breslau, although not at school, no. Breslau did not feature prominently in any UK history curriculum, just as probably Aldgate/Whitechapel, Chelmsford and other places in the UK don't feature on Poland's history curriculum)

Inwro,

Have you not considered taking a larger place with 2 or 3 bedrooms maybe 20-120 m2 and subletting. If you are experiencing problems finding a good place then there have to be many other foreigners in a similar position.

A combination of self-deceit / denial and opportunistic mind games. You will get any amount of this on PF. Truth is elsewhere.

Yes I did think about that, but so far no one I know here needs accommodation, and I don't want a total stranger. I did that in Britain in the past and it was far from ideal, lots of noise from flatmates and they used to nick my food etc.


Yes, the truth is out there, somewhere!

For me subletting is for teenagers and students so they can spend the extra money on beer;however, in Poland the choice is leave the country or accept the sh1t as normal. Hard nut to chew for those who know better.

Every city has its own specifics. It just happens that southern Wrocław - so called Krzyki districts is one of the safest places in terms of flood risk (there was a big flood in 97 which deluged huge area in the city center). At the same time it is close to the city center and close to the one of the fastest growing areas around A4/A8 intersection. Hence big part of new development took place there. Yes, this district in many parts is also ugly as hell because of commie city planning and not so much better contemporary developments. But historically speaking places along Powstańców Śląskich and parts of Karkonoska was full of nicest buldings in the city - almost all of it destroyed during WWII because Russians attacked from the south + Germans systematically were destroying quarter after quarter to defend themselfs. You can see the rest of its glory at Powstańców Śląskich square. Still what is left its a location which is considered by many as the best. So to sum this up you are looking for a place in the wrong area with your budget. Also if you must compare this location with London, then instead of Stevenage you should rather choose some fine district in London proper.

Well, one agent said I should negotiate prices down there to what's reasonable, but who knows - so far no luck.


I agree with you.

Many people have supplemented their mortgage by sub-letting. Especially in a place like poland where there are houses for sale already converted into flats. If someone is here long term this could be a very good investment especially if they are in a town like Wroclaw with a large student community.

Really?

I'd love to see how you could afford a place of your own in London without subletting.

True, as long as it at least an 85m-100m apartment. Squashing into a box is not an option for an adult.


London?

Quick anecdote, from today.

Spoke to a youngish Polish man who runs a food kiosk. He has lived in the Midlands of the UK and Oxon but returned to Poland (and I spoke to him here in Wroc). Without any prompting from me, he told me he'd bought a house or flat (not sure which) in Krzyki in 2006 and (quote) "I don't understand why it's not worth double what I paid, it's crazy." I suggested to him it was because there's easy credit and mortgages here (the same mistake as happened in Britain and the US) and he denied that, saying "No, they've stopped that now."

I also mentioned to him about rental agreements. Right or wrong, I don't know, but he told me that if a tenant does not pay their rent here and there's a written tenancy agreement, the landlord has to wait another 3 months after that to get a court order to evict the tenant. He said this was why landlords don't like to do written agreements, along with the fact written ones mean tax liability.

What wasn't clear, because he had to go and serve customers, was whether a written agreement ALWAYS holds. Specifically, I wanted to ask him:

i. Does the written agreement dilute the rights under Kodeks (some other forum posters here have said it can, he said it can't and that Kodeks over-rides anyone trying to dilute it)

ii. Does a written tenancy agreement have to be stamped or witnessed by a Notary for it to have legal power? In other words, is a plain written agreement signed by just the parties involved (the tenant and landlord/owner) have reduced authenticity if a Notary did not stamp it and file it?

And if a female tenant is pregnant, there's basically no recourse for the landlord to evict.

Interesting, there's lots to learn here, but I note that even the large agencies write agreements saying "rent late by 7 days - landlord can end contract and remove you"

"Remove you" can mean the same thing it does elsewhere, which is to actually begin proceedings to evict you. Not to actually enter the property and forcibly remove you.

Oh okay, I'll have to return the baseball bat to Decathlon now!

This was the clause -- most agents use it (it says something about termination if rent's late by 7 days)

2.Wynajmujący może rozwiązać niniejszą umowę w trybie natychmiastowym bez okresu wypowiedzenia w razie zaistnienia którejkolwiek z przesłanek:
- zalegania przez Najemcę z zapłatą czynszu lub innych należności wynikających z umowy
najmu przez okres co najmniej 7 dni,
- używania przedmiotu najmu niezgodnie z jego przeznaczeniem opisanym w §2 niniejszej umowy;
- używanie przedmiotu najmu w sposób skutkujący jego zużyciem i/lub zniszczeniem ponad normalną
eksploatację przedmiotu najmu;

^^
That is complicated issue, and frankly speaking a lawer would be needed, but basically:
1. Yes, there is very hard to evict someone in Poland (if that person is good cheater)- it is a long process in the court. But there are ways to secure owner rights - for example some clause in angreement made with Notary (but I know the case when Notary screw this part and court didn't concede this).

Some owners use some more unlawfull methods - sometimes it is better to be the side incriminated but with a property than the other way around...

2. not written agreements are valid, just harder to prove
3. tenancy agreement don't have to be stamped or witnessed by a Notary - but in some cases it is more safe to the owner to do that

btw. point 1. is just another reason why rents in Poland are relatively high... there is much risk involved in that bussiness.

Thanks for posting. So, to summarise, the situation seems to be
It's hard to evict in less than 3 months unless a notary inserts a clause that the court would accept is consistent with the Kodeks' rules or guidance on evictions. In such an instance, a landlord can evict before 3 or 6 months of no rent payment. (Please do not think I am condoning withholding rent - I am not. A tenant should pay rent unless the landlord has failed in some significant way.) Some landlords break the law and harass tenants out in some way, such as cutting off power or water or 'sending the boys round'. Written agreements are valid but harder to rely on for obvious reasons. Landlords gain the most advantage by having a tenancy agreement seen and stamped by a notary.

I've heard that there is trick not to rent whole apartment but everything except of let's say closet. Then it's easier to evict tenant, because they cannot not let you in and you can make their live miserable ;)

:o)

In other words, the rental agreement covers everything except some fixture or fitting within the rented flat which, for some legal reason, the landlord has a right to get access to. I'll look out for that one, nothing would surprise me here! (Although actually I am losing patience now with it and am thinking of going home to England for a few months or longer, because I just can't find anything decent to rent here -- there are always problems of one sort or another with each flat or landlord, and of course that's when I can even find a flat to have a look at!)

Some value in the occasional property that I've viewed, mostly the empty ones.

A few questions if anyone knows the answers...

1. Assuming the property is empty and I pay cash (no mortgage), what's the typical transaction time to completion (the apartment or house becoming mine, and getting the keys) ?

2. Do I need my PESEL when buying ?

3. Is it worth it to put in an offer on any flat which still seems too expensive or do Polish vendors typically refuse ? For example, 10% or 20% off.

1. Assuming you are doing some checks (title, survey etc) then you will be lucky to do it in less than 4 weeks. Even if you are using your own funds you still have to get tchem here and get them into zloty which can take some time.

2. You would need some form of ID that can go into a notary document - passport etc. I have brought property here without a PESEL.

3. Yes of course, its a free market and offer what you like. Tell them your price. Some will refuse and some will accept.

With mine, I saw it once, saw it again a couple of days later, made an offer (which was immediately accepted), booked the notary that same day, the notary drew up the paperwork the next morning, we signed contracts the next afternoon and then went to the bank where I made the transfer. So slightly less than 24 hours from making the offer. It then took a few months for me to be entered into the land and mortgage register.


I certainly didn't.


Very much worth it.

It's better to have somebody experienced with you as there are some cheaters and it's sad to be cheated for few hundreds thousands PLN. For example I've read about people selling their apartment few times during the same day. They used flaw of the law which allows notary to update land registrations in 2 days after signing sale agreement. Only thing they had to do, was to appoint few meetings with buyers at the different notaries. One case was even that they guy was not the real owner of an apartment. He rent apartment, faked owner's id and sold apartment to few people.

Not to get cheated in such way I would suggest to take an picture of the seller and ask neighbors if he is really the owner. 2nd thing to do is make an appointment with notary on Monday 7:00 am. Then ask notary to mention in agreement not only date, but also time of signing. If the owner is real and he tries to sell apartment few times during the same day, then the 1st selling agreement is only valid. Monday obviously so you know that he hasn't signed anything day before. Most of notaries don't work on Sunday.

It's just 2 things which I've heard. There must be more to watch out.

You don't let the grass grow, do you, eh! I doubt I'll manage to get anyone to go quite that fast but I'll have a good try if I find somewhere decent (a few viewings lined up and then I'll see).

Thanks for that interesting bit of inspiration!


Thanks for the tip, I will keep 'em peeled!

That value I was hoping for seems somewhat elusive now -- the flat I had my eye on was it seems incorrectly priced, by 100K, as they have now upped it by that amount. I didn't imagine it. Sadly also, 2 other flats seem to have sold after many months on r\the market. The interest rate cuts here might be tempting buyers. Plus Tusk's declaration of no recession, maybe. Not sure I'll ever see that 'value', might have to bite the bullet here and overpay in spite of the scary relationship between wage multiples and price. I hate going against fundamentals I really do. The world seems to have gone mad.