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Ukraine - a country in Central Europe?


Vlad1234 16 | 725
15 Oct 2018 #1
Wikipedia represents Ukraine (which is a Central European country) as a country in Eastern Europe. I tried to correct this mistake many times, but my efforts were always fiercely counterattacked. What do think about it? I think geographical position of Ukraine allows to call it a Central European country...
WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
15 Oct 2018 #2
Nah, Ukraine clearly in Eastern Europe. Even Poland is considered by many to be Eastern Europe, even though some say it is in central Europe. At best you could say the most western part of Ukraine covers central Europe possibly, but even that might be doing a bit far.
OP Vlad1234 16 | 725
15 Oct 2018 #3
Clearly? The distance between Lisbon (Atlantic coast) to Kiev is around 3.000 km. The distance between Kiev and Yekaterinbourg (the foothills of Ural mountains) is around 2.000 km. I think we can say that only European part of Russia is clearly the Eastern Europe. But because the largest part of Russia is located in Asia, this term is useless when applicable to some particular country. Therefore the very term "Eastern Europe" suppose to gone as a Cold War relic.
Alexbrz 3 | 78
16 Oct 2018 #4
To be exact, to Lisbon its closer to 3400 km.

Your point about Russia pretty much validates the reasoning behind saying Ukraine is Eastern Europe tho.

Im guessing here, that your problem with the term is that its your opinion that its a derogatory term. Its only that, if you see it as such.

For the rest of us, "Eastern Europe" simply means the geographical location in the east. Getting rid of a geographical term as a cold war relic doesnt seem like a logical step to me, but then again, i dont mean anything else than a location with it.

I think it will be easier for you to accept the fact that people call it Eastern Europe without meaning "shi---" than it is to convince the rest of the world to start saying its Central Europe.
jon357 63 | 15,722
16 Oct 2018 #5
Wikipedia represents Ukraine (which is a Central European country) as a country in Eastern Europe

It is certainly culturally, economically, linguistically, gastronomically, religiously and socially Eastern Europe, however Lviv (ex-Lemberg) has some special characteristics of Mitteleuropa.

Your point about Russia pretty much validates the reasoning behind saying Ukraine is Eastern Europe tho.

This is key to the motivation for some of these threads that appear.
OP Vlad1234 16 | 725
16 Oct 2018 #6
@Alexbrz
It would be if we divide Europe into the East and West plainly. But if you do insist that there is also the Central Europe, then we need to assume there is a point which conditionally have to be taken for the geographical Center of Europe and conclude the Central Europe is anything that lays in significant distance to the West and East from this point. First of all we need to agree where this point is. Some sources claim it is located in Western Ukraine.

In 1887, geographers from the Austro-Hungarian Empire set up a historical marker and a large stone in what is today a part of Ukraine, believed to mark the geographic centre of Europe.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_midpoint_of_Europe

Also we need to agree where is the Western edge of Europe is. If in the East it is defined by the Ural mountains which plainly show it, in the West the Iberian peninsula bulges out far away into Atlantic sea, makes this definition more complicated. But even if we take Lisbon for the marker, as you said, the total distance from Lisbon to Yekaterinburg is approximately 5400 km and if we will divide this distance into three equal parts 1800X1800X1800 km (which stand for Western, Central and Eastern Europe) then Kiev and the largest part of Ukraine will be in Central Europe.

It is certainly culturally, economically, linguistically, gastronomically, religiously and socially Eastern Europe

How is it all relevant? In my understanding "East" and "West" are purely geographical characteristics.
Alexbrz 3 | 78
16 Oct 2018 #7
Thats the thing, "we" already agreed that Ukraine is categorized as Eastern Europe.

Most of us are fine with it. You are not, but that doesnt mean the rest of the world is gonna change. Take for example your wikipedia-change-denied as an example.

I mean, how much effort do you want to put in it, and what is your eventual goal to achieve. For the common man Poland is also considered Eastern Europe. Is that your next fight?

Why are we discussing Ukraine's geographical location at all on an American Poland forum. Pick your battles, and im guessing this is not one you're gonna win.

Apart from that your quoting on centre-of-europe location is very selective. There's a bunch of claims.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_midpoint_of_Europe#Current_claimants
OP Vlad1234 16 | 725
16 Oct 2018 #8
I mean, how much effort do you want to put in it, and what is your eventual goal to achieve.

I think it would be interesting to initiate a legal suit against Wikipedia and some other sources similar to geographic literature publishers, but personally I'm not too obsessed with it to do something like this. I think that at least they suppose mention an alternative points of view in their definitions. Also I wasn't able to find any info how a legal process against Wikipedia can be initiated at all, and in which country this company is even legally based.
Alexbrz 3 | 78
16 Oct 2018 #9
Wikimedia Foundation, the organization behind Wikipedia, is based in California.

I'd say you dont stand a single chance as there isnt a legal definition of Eastern Europe, and Wikipedia even shows, on mouse-over of the word Eastern Europe on Ukraine's page, an explanation about the wide range of connotations of Eastern Europe.

Hence filling in your request to mention an alternative point of view.
OP Vlad1234 16 | 725
16 Oct 2018 #10
Wikipedia defines Germany as a country in central-western Europe.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany

I think they suppose to define Ukraine as a country in central-eastern Europe, by analogy, if not purely Central European.

Unfortunately I'm not sure how Canadian citizen can apply in court on California-based company.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,552
16 Oct 2018 #11
Wikipedia represents Ukraine (which is a Central European country) as a country in Eastern Europe

Hmm...Central Europe is Germany, Poland and a few others...It's a geographical thing...because they ARE smack in the middle!


OP Vlad1234 16 | 725
16 Oct 2018 #12
However the map you've posted doesn't show entire Europe, because if it does you would see that Kiev is also nearly in the middle!
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,552
16 Oct 2018 #13
Even if so, what's with the rest of Ukraine? Somewhere you have to draw a line....
OP Vlad1234 16 | 725
16 Oct 2018 #14
Read my postings above. I've already wrote that: "total distance from Lisbon to Yekaterinburg is approximately 5400 km and if we will divide this distance into three equal parts 1800X1800X1800 km (which stand for Western, Central and Eastern Europe) then Kiev and the largest part of Ukraine will be in Central Europe.

In this way only Russia can be 100% associated with Eastern Europe.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,552
16 Oct 2018 #15
and the largest part of Ukraine will be in Central Europe.

....but not all of it! People will never say: "Ukraine till up to....belongs to Central Europe". The categorization just doesn't work that way...

I think this map shows it quite well...the countries in red are central because they ARE central for every eye to see, without some extra clarification and differentiation needed.

You are fighting windmills here...

And if you ask me personally I would go even further and delete the most outer left country and the two most southwards countries from this map too, they aren't "central" anymore either.
Crow 145 | 8,772
16 Oct 2018 #16
Hmm...Central Europe is Germany, Poland and a few others...It's a geographical thing...because they ARE smack in the middle!

This is Central Europe in modern political sense and zones of it (parts of Ukraine in it) >

ce
jon357 63 | 15,722
17 Oct 2018 #17
You are fighting windmills here...

Yes. It's culture not physical geography.

It really doesn't matter how vast the empty wastelands of Russia are before they get to the Urals. Central Europe is Mitteleuropa, Most of Germany, Austria, Czech, possibly Slovakia, maybe a very small part of Italy and some of the Balkans. Perhaps Switzerland, though that, as ever, is a special place.

Other places (including parts of Poland and the Low Countries) may have characteristics of it, however on the whole they are not part of it.

But not Russia, Poland, Ukraine.
Alexbrz 3 | 78
17 Oct 2018 #18
Im sure you can google your way into the information of where to file your (useless) lawsuit, but then i wonder, are you also going to fight Google, every single time-related website and god knows who came up with the EET (Eastern European Time) zone that Ukraine is in?

As said above by someone, you're fighting windmills buddy. Calm down and find a new hobby
OP Vlad1234 16 | 725
17 Oct 2018 #19
I don't care about time zone too much. I'm not obsessed with this theme too much either, this is a once in a many years I recalled it in my memory and decided that PF would be an interesting place to discuss it. I understand Polish desire to go away from the Cold War relics, when all Europe was divided into "Us" and "they". Quite interesting that the term "Central Europe" which included Poland, Czechoslovakia and some other countries was accepted in the USSR. In the West (and up to beginning of 2000-th) they divided Europe in West and East and even Eastern Germany was part of Eastern Europe according to US definitions.
gregy741 4 | 1,204
18 Oct 2018 #20
.It's a geographical thing

well.by precise geographical definitions ,europe itself shouldn't be a separate continent.there is no see or ocean between europe and asia.it should be euroasia.

its been separated cus of cultural political and ethnic reasons.
with todays mass immigration this might change soon ..lol.
OP Vlad1234 16 | 725
18 Oct 2018 #21
I think an another variant is to go from division of Europe into West/Center/East in geographic literature altogether. Is Europe so large we need to divide it in parts? Why not to write that Germany, Poland, Ukraine, Russia are just countries in Europe?
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,552
18 Oct 2018 #22
with todays mass immigration this might change soon

Yeah....and in few years all continents will become one huge landmass again...lol

Why not to write that Germany, Poland, Ukraine, Russia are just countries in Europe?

I think Russia poses a similiar problem as Ukraine. Even if most of cultural Russia belongs to Europe, most of the territory does not...so Russia is often not seen as belonging to Europe at all.
OP Vlad1234 16 | 725
18 Oct 2018 #23
Yeah....and in few years all continents will become one huge landmass again...lol

In a few billions of years? Maybe. Continental drift, you know...
Ziemowit 13 | 4,225
18 Oct 2018 #25
Central Europe is Germany, Poland and a few others...It's a geographical thing...because they ARE smack in the middle!

Not only geographical. I think it is a historical and cultural thing as well (with the exception of Switzerland perhaps). Once Germany has said good-bye to its efforts to eventually build a vast central European empire which should over time become German in character, the political concept of Central Europe may be safely revived again. East Germany would be a very important link in that scheme because of its strong Middle Ages Slavic backdrop and its important historical connections with Czechia, Hungary and western Poland.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,552
18 Oct 2018 #26
Once Germany has said good-bye to its efforts to eventually build a vast central European empire

Germany doesn't even need to make an effort...in fact they are for years trying to avoid also the smallest reason for suspicion that they could or would...it doesn't matter at all.

As the biggest country with the most economical power and population it's an unavoidable consequence that they make it "German in Character" more than some can stomach.

That's just the influence of facts...that's also why there won't be such a "revival"...it will just be...

East Germany would be a very important link in that scheme because of its strong Middle Ages Slavic backdrop

I think so too...
OP Vlad1234 16 | 725
18 Oct 2018 #27
Once Germany has said good-bye to its efforts to eventually build a vast central European empire which should over time become German in character

Maybe they will continue this efforts in Russia, Belarus and Ukraine?
OP Vlad1234 16 | 725
18 Oct 2018 #28
The shortest distance between Kiev and Berlin is 1.200 km, the shortest distance between Ukraine and Germany is around 800 km.


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