The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered  |  Archives 
 
 
User: Guest

Home / News  % width posts: 170

Victory in 'anti-Polish camps' campaign in US


nott 3 | 594
3 Dec 2010 #91
nott: The post-war camps were not referred to, it was illegal to do so in Poland under Soviet rule, and the West didn't give a damn.

Hansard here shows that you are, yet again, a liar.

Can't see anything.

nott:His 'Polish mother' as according to 'some newspapers',

That statement was inserted into Wikipedia by the same editor (who just happens to have a Polish IP address) that removed the information about Sawoniuk telling the Polish army that he had been in the SS. Was it you?

Yeah, I was hacking the DNS server at that time. For half a day all London IPs showed as Polish. CIA went all mad, I had to change my name to nott and move two streets away.

FYI, Harry, all the info in Wiki has been inserted by some editor. Some of them, those editors, happened to live in Poland, imagine that..

The fact is that all the sources about Sawoniuk's mother say that she was Polish.

Only you can't be bothered to show them.

nott: He joined a Belorussian Police under German control and prosecuted Poles.

More lies from you: the police he joined was not 'Belorussian' (despite Polish Wikipedia editors editing that info in, just check the sources which they removed) and he did not prosecute anybody.

Source: Harry.

nott: None of them says he was a Pole. No courts quoted by you have ever claimed that.

Apart from the Canadian court which says "Polish ex-serviceman" and the American court which says "Polish"....

Polish is an adjective, Harry boy. Polish vodka is not a Pole. Polish Jew is not a Pole, Josef Frantisek was a Polish serviceman, yet he was a Czech. Basic grammar, Harry. Adjective is not a noun. None of your sources says anything about him being a Pole. Or quote it, instead of trying to abuse the language.

nott:Gorale were not Poles to them.

And you share the viewpoint of the Nazis, how very surprising.

I say Germans never recruited Poles to the SS, nor to Hiwis.

nott:Seems we need a thread for the most stupid argument on the day.

And we have a contender for lie of the day from you: the Polnische Wehrmacht, also called unofficially the White Eagle's Legion, was (re)formed in 1944 with the stated aim of turning it into "Waffen SS Polen". You'd better get scrubbing this wikipedia article!

That was interesting, thanks. Now prove me I was lying.

This was not the SS, nor the Hiwis, Harry boy. So the argument is stupid anyway.

nott: To me those boys were Ukrainians. Schuma Batallion 202 was formed by joining two Ukrainian formations which took part in the German invasion of the USSR. Whatever some drunk Nazi called them is hardly relevant.

Oh dear, yet another lie!

Yet another slander. 202 was formed by joining two Ukrainian formations. Harry. And you know the source I got it from.

Sytuacja zmieniła się wiosną 1943 roku, gdy duża część ukraińskich policjantów zdezerterowała, by zasilić oddziały Ukraińskiej Powstańczej Armii. Wtedy składy wybrakowanych posterunków i kompanii został uzupełniony w dużej części przez Polaków." Get scrubbing on this article too!

And another slander.

I said: 'Germans did not recruit Poles to the SS, nor to Hiwis.' Schama 202 was neither SS, nor Hiwis, Harry, easy to check.

Come back anytime you want your lies exposed yet again!

And another slander. All based on checkable lies. Admin? :)
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,823
3 Dec 2010 #92
I thought they were fanatical racists seeing Poles as Untermensch BB?

Things weren't as black and white as some describe it.

Even up to 1939 Hitler still hoped to get an agreement with Poland. Poland was offered an alliance, and he would had even given up all claims to Danzig if Poland would at least agree to neutrality and don't hinder the german forces gathering at the border, preparing for the one true enemy of Hitler, Stalin's Russia.
Harry
3 Dec 2010 #93
Hitler REJECTED Himmlers and Franks idea wholly!!!
And with racial reasoning at that...

Please read the whole article: you are quoting about 1943 to say something about an order which was given in December 1944!

Can somebody please tell the brave Pole who's going to glass me if I call him a liar one more time that I'm posting on my iPhone and so can't point out that as usual he's been caught lying and needs to go scrub wikipedia to suit his lies: I'll get to him next week.
guesswho 4 | 1,278
3 Dec 2010 #94
Polish Jew is not a Pole

well, I strongly disagree with that 1. Once a citizen of one country, no matter if a Jew or Muslim or whatever, it's still a citizen. Like in this case, Polish Jew indicates that he's a Polish citizen, right?
nott 3 | 594
3 Dec 2010 #95
So, to resume:

There were no Poles in the 1 SS
There were no Poles in the 12 SS
The information quoted by Harry came from a report by a Soviet propaganda officer, a highly suspicious source, and this is the only source that claims contrary to the above.

Some Poles were recruited in 1944 to the so-called Polnische Wehrmacht, part of which was later transformed to Waffen SS.
Schama 202 was a police formation, not SS nor Hiwi, created by joining 2 Ukrainian formations, and later on recruiting some Poles.

Consequently, this alone is a strong indication that neither Obodzinski nor Sawoniuk were Poles. There are other clues, and there's no source claiming that they were. Except Harry.

There was one Polish camp before the war, which can be referred to as a concentration camp. The few camps after the war were run by the Soviets in the Soviet occupied Poland, so they are as Polish as the Nazi camps during the German occupation. Ergo, there were no 'Polish concentration camps', except according to Harry and some Western media.

Obliged for pointing out errors in my above statements. Not you, Harry, I need somebody sane.

I'll get to him next week.

Takes time to find another rag of misinformation, innit. Happy hunting, Harry, you need a goal in life.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,823
3 Dec 2010 #96
Some Poles were recruited in 1944 to the so-called Polnische Wehrmacht, part of which was later transformed to Waffen SS.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polnische_Wehrmacht_(WWII)

Interesting article...but it never came to a Waffen-SS formation.

When joining the force, a Pole signed the following obligation which was equivalent with the text of oath :

I oblige myself to fight against Bolshevism in voluntary service of German armed forces. I will put all diligence into guarding against Bolshevism my nation, as well as European and whole civilized world. I oblige myself to unconditionally and obediently execute my military superiors' orders and to be a good colleague...

It seems Harry was right all along...there had been ethnic Poles (not DVL) voluntarily fighting in the german forces..
And who knows, if Hitler hadn't been so adamantly against it for so long...there might have been a fully fledged polish Waffen-SS unit fighting on the eastern front!
Nathan 18 | 1,349
3 Dec 2010 #97
created by joining 2 Ukrainian formations, and later on recruiting some Poles.

If Soviets were in Poland in 1939-44, Poland would undoubtedly have military formations on German side - not out of love, but choosing to fight worse evil first before engaging German forces. But since only Germany was an occupying force in those years, it was clear for Poles whom to fight. But as was mentioned by BB, there was some Polnische Wehrmacht in 1944 - time when Soviets passed Polish-Ukrainian borders and were threat to Poland as such. In Ukraine it became clear after Declaration of independance on June 30, 1941 and following imprisonment or outright killing of the leaders who stood behind it by Germans - who are the enemies: both Soviets and Nazis.
nott 3 | 594
3 Dec 2010 #98
It seems Harry was right all along...there had been ethnic Poles (not DVL) voluntarily fighting in the german forces..

But not in the SS? That's what it all was about.

nott: Polish Jew is not a Pole

*sigh* Right. Polish citizen. Citizen of Poland. Not a Pole. Not Jewish Pole, which is an oxymoron. Polish Jew, like Polish Ukrainian, although the latter is seldom used.

'Pole' means a person of Polish nationality. Polish citizen means a person with Polish passport, simply speaking. There were loads of Polish citizens in the pre-war Poland, who weren't Poles, and many of them would've been rather upset if somebody called them that. Some of them fought against Poland, in order to create their own country, where they will be free of Poles. Some of them were murdered in the Holocaust, because they were Jews, not Poles, and this is a widely known and accepted fact. Otherwise Germany would pay head money to Poland now, not to Israel. Israel, a country where initially, and for a long time afterwards, the Knesset members disputed in Yiddish, but when it came to name calling, reverted to the rather more familiar Polish language - yet these people, if called Poles, would laugh their heads off, or maybe they'd sue for slander, as this would be a lie damaging their political career.

a Pole (noun): a person of Polish nationality. Somebody with ancestors of Polish nationality, living Polish culture, speaking Polish language, and feeling himself a Pole.

a Polish (noun): as above. Now more popular in usage.

Polish (adjective): referring to, or pertaining to Poland or Poles. Thus 'Polish Jew' is a citizen of Poland, of Jewish ethnicity and, most probably, a follower of Judaism. Not a Pole, which is of Polish ethnicity by definition, or, exceptionally, has adopted Polishness over a long period of naturalisation, usually stretching over generations, by abandoning his previous culture and national identity. The are usually called Poles of German/Jewish/whatever descendance.

The ambiguity of Polish/Polish is exploited by Harry to falsely claim that Poles did this and that. Sawoniuk et al were Polish citizens, but they were not Poles(*). No Poles fought in the Ghetto Uprising, contrary to what Harry once blurted, they were all Jews. Morel, the criminal camp commander, was a Jew, not a Pole, and not even a 'Jewish Pole' which is a an impossible thing. Polish citizens were drafted to Polish Army regardless of their ethnicity, thus 'Polish ex-serviceman' bears no information of the man's ethnicity, exactly the same as 'born in Poland' doesn't. And so on.

Hope this helps.

(*) That is, there are no valid sources claiming that, and there are quite a lot of sources with strong clues that they were of Belorussian or Ukrainian ethnicity.
guesswho 4 | 1,278
3 Dec 2010 #99
Polish citizen. Citizen of Poland. Not a Pole

I bet, quite a few of the present here Americans of Polish origin, will definitely disagree with you when you'll try to deny their right to feel Americans as they are American citizens.
nott 3 | 594
3 Dec 2010 #100
It's about Poland, not the USA. Different country, different culture, things understood differently. American take on nationality leads to ridiculous conclusions in Poland.
guesswho 4 | 1,278
3 Dec 2010 #101
It's about Poland, not the USA

Not really. You sad that the Polish Jew is not a Pole so it would be the same with an American Pole, don't you think? I'm sure, I'm not the only one who sees it that way.
OP PennBoy 76 | 2,432
3 Dec 2010 #102
Not really.

Actually he's right nationality ( Narodowość ) in Poland has the same meaning as an ethnic group. There are people who for generations have been living in Poland and are not considered Polish. If a person of a mixed background and was born in Poland, embraces Polish customs and culture he can be Polish. In America anyone born there is American because who are the native Americans? Indians Native Americans, yet they're a tiny minority and not the ruling class so it's different.
guesswho 4 | 1,278
4 Dec 2010 #103
There are people who for generations have been living in Poland and are not considered Polish.

pretty darn nationalistic, I would say. I guess, you guys are lucky, we don't see it the same way :-) Besides, my ancestors (my mom's side) were here before it was even the US. We're talking here about almost 400 years. I guess it gives me the right to feel American.
ender 5 | 398
4 Dec 2010 #104
I guess, you guys are lucky, we don't see it the same way

Your artificial country IS racist compering to Poland
In Poland to describe a person two criterias are used ONLY:
citizenship:
nationality:
for example
Citizenship: Polish,
Nationality: American Indian or Marsian or Silesian or Kaszhubian or German or Ukrainian or Jew
and it's up to you what nationality you choose
additionly you CAN be asked about faith but you don't have to answer
and you will NEVER be asked about your race
so even if you pink, green, yellow, black, ginger but you FEEL you are Pole you can say you are polish nationality
guesswho 4 | 1,278
4 Dec 2010 #105
Your artificial country IS racist compering to Poland

It has nothing to do with racism. Go on google and find out yourself why we do it before you come to your conclusions. Besides, why is my country artificial? (what a utter bs)
OP PennBoy 76 | 2,432
4 Dec 2010 #106
Your artificial country IS racist compering to Poland

America today isn't racist it's very liberal actually a lil too much, some white kids even think they're black these days lol. This isn't the 1960s. The main divisions that exist today is between the classes, rich and poor and that will never change. It's a nation made up of just about every singe ethnicity on this planet a big melting pot come and see for yourself.
nott 3 | 594
4 Dec 2010 #107
Not really. You sad that the Polish Jew is not a Pole so it would be the same with an American Pole, don't you think?

Really. I don't think (so). Polish Jew is a Jew born and bred in Poland, he is not a Pole. And he doesn't want to be a Pole, he is a Jew. American Pole is a Pole who was lucky enough to get the US citizenship. He is a Polish American too, no problem, depends on the mood.

I'm sure, I'm not the only one who sees it that way.

Americans don't understand that, I know. Thing is, if you want to know what the world outside the USA is like, you have to apply a non-American way of thinking. Otherwise most things will be nonsense to you.

pretty darn nationalistic, I would say.

Welcome to Europe :)

Not to the EU, which is a different thing. They even consider (reluctantly) admitting Turkey to Europe.

we don't see it the same way :-)

If you want to understand Poland, you have to learn how to see things from Polish perspective. American POV is useless here and misleading.

Besides, my ancestors (my mom's side) were here before it was even the US. We're talking here about almost 400 years. I guess it gives me the right to feel American.

Envied.... :)

AFAIK, getting the US passport entitles you to feel 100% American the very moment you grab it. Not so across the pond, as the Brits call it. Definitely not so in Poland. To be a Pole, you need layers of white-and-red moss sentimental about sabres to grow on your skin. Speaking figuratively :) It's nationality, not citizenship.
ender 5 | 398
4 Dec 2010 #108
Go on google and find out yourself why

Sorry mate did you read my post?
I'LL TRY AGAIN: THERE IS NO ANY QUESTION ABOUT RACE IN ANY OFICIAL QUESTIONNAIRE
and compare that to what you know about your country.
why artificial?
when I am in REGULAR English or German or Czech or Spanish or Turkey or Tunisian or Hungarian or Polish hotel I don't have to watch their national flag on my breakfest table. It's my private opinion but it looks like you have convince yourself and everybody around you are American
ItsAllAboutME 3 | 270
4 Dec 2010 #109
you will NEVER be asked about your race

how many different racial groups are there really in Poland?

btw, I find it rather interesting that when it comes to opinions about the US, the strongest (and usually the farthest from the truth) are usually held by people who haven't spent much time here at all.

It's my private opinion

please keep it this way, no reason to make it publicly known and embarrass yourself..
guesswho 4 | 1,278
4 Dec 2010 #110
if you want to know what the world outside the USA is like

Jeez man, 9 years of Europe and not only Europe. I definitely know how it is "outside the USA", don't you think? I just believe that the Polish way of seeing other ethnic groups in Poland (especially Polish citizens) is a "little" odd, that's it.

when I am in REGULAR English or German or Czech or Spanish or Turkey or Tunisian or Hungarian or Polish hotel I don't have to watch their national flag on my breakfest table

and what's artificial about it?

btw, I find it rather interesting that when it comes to opinions about the US, the strongest (and usually the farthest from the truth) are usually held by people who haven't spent much time here at all.

or haven't spent any time here at all (never been here).
ender 5 | 398
4 Dec 2010 #111
please keep it this way

read with understanding HE asked me. And you wont tell me what to do. Understood? And leave my shame to me.
And will you tell me how many Concentration Camps were opened by USA in their history? And when you be able to close Guantanamo Bay Concentration Camp (The Random House Dictionary defines the term "concentration camp" as: "a guarded compound for the detention or imprisonment of aliens, members of ethnic minorities, political opponents, etc.")

Jeez man, 9 years of Europe and not only Europe.

or haven't spent any time here at all (never been here)

First you prove you spent 9 years out of US and then I prove I prove I spent 8 days American shithole close to Saint Louis
nott 3 | 594
4 Dec 2010 #112
I just believe that the Polish way of seeing other ethnic groups in Poland (especially Polish citizens) is a "little" odd, that's it.

Then 9 years was not enough in your case, simple. It's not about time spent, it's about that little effort of acknowledging that people can think differently. Tell a Pole he might become Jewish, he'll laugh at a stupid American. Tell a Jew he is a Pole, he will laugh at a stupid American. This is Poland, in Europe, not the USA.

Just in case: I am not saying you are stupid. I am saying you are not interested. Typical for the Americans :)
ender 5 | 398
4 Dec 2010 #113
Typical for the Americans

No need to be mean. He is just little narrow-minded. And he is interested enough to answer his post.
guesswho 4 | 1,278
4 Dec 2010 #114
First you prove you spent 9 years out of US and then I prove I prove I spent 8 days American shithole close to Saint Louis

Why did you repeat "I prove" twice, lol Are you mad? lol I don't need to prove anything to you.

What's about "I spent 8 days American shithole close to Saint Louis"? What are you trying to say?

Then 9 years was not enough in your case, simple.

I bet, even a hundred years wouldn't be enough for someone who's coming from any western country, not just the US.

He is just little narrow-minded

look in the mirror next time you say it because what you gave from yourself so far will be definitely seen as narrow-minded just about anywhere in the western world.

Talk to you later.
ItsAllAboutME 3 | 270
4 Dec 2010 #115
poor ender, why so defensive? I wanted to know how many racial groups are in Poland, it's a very simple question... I'm expecting not many, so a question about race simply does not serve any purpose, and is no indication, evidently, about how racist a country is.

If you don't know much about the US, why are you voicing opinions and arguing if people tell you you're wrong. Wouldn't open-mindedness, which you demand so fiercely from others, require you to find out more from others who actually live here before you can formulate an educated opinion?

I'm not trashing your country, I'm trying to find out more, and you're being rude. Like a lot of people here, unfortunately. Getting used to it, but still don't see the reason for it...

And I'm not telling you what to do. You have the right to your opinion, I have the right to have mine. My opinion is your opinion is very simpleminded.
trener zolwia 1 | 939
4 Dec 2010 #116
Wait, Poland is a country somewhere over there, right?

:p
ender 5 | 398
4 Dec 2010 #117
I wanted to know how many racial groups are in Poland, it's a very simple question... I'm expecting not many, so a question about race simply does not serve any purpose, and is no indication, evidently, about how racist a country is.

Let me repeat read with understanding I don't think about people in 'race' categories. When I see Black he is a human who looks different same as ginger. When I see Black I assume he is loud, messy and not too bright, when I see American I assume he is stupid, when I see ginger I assume he is mean :-) Very often it's not true in Backs and ginger cases. :-)

What are you trying to say?

I am trying to say I've been in US and I am able to prove it, obviously you can't prove you've visited any other countries then american states. So I could say you are big mouth but I wont I got my old explanation which fits well.
guesswho 4 | 1,278
4 Dec 2010 #118
I am trying to say I've been in US and I am able to prove it, obviously you can't prove you've visited any other countries then american states.

Nothing I'm willing to provide on PF would prove it as I'm not willing to post any of my pics taken while in Europe. There are few people on this forum who know me, ask them.

I could probably provide some information about some places in Poland that only a person would be able to provide who was there, would that be a proof that I was there? (4 years in Poland, just ask).

I bet, I know more about Poland than you about the US.
zetigrek
6 Dec 2010 #119
Merged thread:
Someone has send on my email a petition against a term "polish concentartion camp"

The text:

The aim of the initiative is to ensure that most American newsrooms - such as the "New York Times", "Wall Street Journal", "Washington Post" and the Associated Press - have introduced the so-called stylebooks (journalism textbooks that define how to and how not to write) a record about the fact that the term "Polish concentration camp" must not be used. Instead, officially approved by UNESCO names of Auschwitz-Birkenau should be used - "German Nazi concentration and extermination camp."

Link for the petition in English here:

thekf.org/events/news/petition
...................................................................... .....................

I know that many of you are very sensitive about this kind of things, that's why I'm posting it here (I know many of you would be willing to sign it).

Someone who support it may translate it. I don't have time for that.
1jola 14 | 1,879
12 Mar 2011 #120
Another victory in anti 'Polish concentration camps' campaign

The San Francisco Chronicle has become the latest newspaper in the US to instruct journalists not to use "Polish concentration camps" when writing stories about German Nazi camps in occupied Poland.

Editor Steve Proctor has informed Poland's Consular-General in Los Angelis that the newspaper's Stylebook has been changed to that effect following protests against a review of the film Shoah in the newspaper on 4 February which referred to "Nazi concentration camps in Poland".

The news comes after the Wall Street Journal announced that it had revised its style guide to exclude the term and is the latest victory in the campaign organised by the Kosciuszko Foundation in New York.

Over 200,000 have signed a petition against the use of the term, including President Bronislaw Komorowski, former president Lech Walesa, Zbigniew Brzezinski, former US National Security Advisor to President Jimmy Carter, Chief Rabbi of Poland Rabbi Michael Schudrich, Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski and many prominent Polish-Americans.

"We will continue this campaign until all media cease to mislead their customers," Kosciuszko Foundation director Alex Storozynski has said in a letter to the Polish community in the US. (pg)

another-victory-in-a nti-polish-concentration-camps-campaign

Another good news would be if "PolishForums' " foreign moderators(I guess Polish moderators are not welcome since there are none) would cease locking out every thread dealing with this subject.


Home / News / Victory in 'anti-Polish camps' campaign in US
BoldItalic [quote]
 
To post as Guest, enter a temporary username or login and post as a member.