The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered  |  Archives 
 
 
User: Guest

Home / News  % width posts: 170

Victory in 'anti-Polish camps' campaign in US


Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,790
3 Dec 2010 #61
Oh dear! It seems that the US National Archives and Records Administration have a copy of the exact order in which Himmler personally authorised the recruiting of Poles into the Waffen.

Harry, it seems that is a misunderstanding...read here (from your interesting link):

... non English content removed

That is quite explicit, don't you think?
convex 20 | 3,930
3 Dec 2010 #62
That is quite explicit, don't you think?

Wouldn't you say that deals more with whole Polish units as opposed to individuals?

But we're wandering...
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,790
3 Dec 2010 #63
Wouldn't you say that deals more with whole Polish units as opposed to individuals?

Of course...that was the bone of contention, wasn't it? Polish units in the Waffen-SS or not...
Harry
3 Dec 2010 #64
No. The claim made by nott was "You may not know this little detail, but Germans never recruited Poles to the SS nor to Hiwi."

and then repeated as "Germans did not recruit Poles to the SS, Harry, that's a historical fact."

But we're wandering...

Not really: Poles demand accuracy from others about history but then some of them also want lies when it comes to things like Polish concentration camps and Polish SS/Hiwi!

Whatever some drunk Nazi called them is hardly relevant. ... Germans did not recruit Poles to the SS, Harry, that's a historical fact.

Interesting that you won't what Nazis called people is hardly relevant but you insist that as Nazi said Gorale were not Poles, those Poles in the SS weren't Poles.

Anyway, here is a quote from "Information Communication No. 3 for the period 031,800 to 041,800." written on 4 August 1944 by an officer of Polish 1st Armoured Division (who were at the time actually fighting the SS):

"SS divisions have a certain percentage of Ukrainians, Czechs and Poles. 1 SS and 12 SS belong to that group."

(

Poles in the SS

The text is found under point 12.

Any more lies from you today old man?

[edit: the version here is rather unclear. For a better quality please go to this page and click on the image there]
wehrmacht-polacy.pl/album_ss.html
guesswho 4 | 1,278
3 Dec 2010 #65
You could say "Polish Jew" instead of "Jewish Pole" - same thing, at the end of the day, to most people.

Even easier it would be to call Pole a Pole, an American just an American etc.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,790
3 Dec 2010 #66
1 SS

Ummm...1st SS was the famous Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, his bodyguard division...they for sure hadn't had any czech, polish or ukrainian members! That one I know!!!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_SS_Division_Leibstandarte_SS_Adolf_Hitler
Harry
3 Dec 2010 #67
They certainly Swedes (SS-Oberscharfuhrer Robert Bengtsson, Kurt Norberg, Åke Regnell, Thorolf Hillblad, to name four), a Brits (James Conen from London), a South African (William Celliers), Norwegians, Belgians and at least some 300 Italians (post surrender of Italy) in LSSAH. According to one personal account from a Kamerdaen from the 3. Kompanie/ 1. Pz. Gr. Rgt. LSSAH states that just prior to the Ardennes Offensive, the 3. Kompanie received a number of former Russian soldiers.

Personally I'm far more prepared to believe an officer who fought against LSSAH than anybody here.

[edit: My previous post above contains a formatting error. The photo there is rather unclear. For a better quality please go wehrmacht-polacy.pl/album_ss.html this page and click on the image there]
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,790
3 Dec 2010 #68
Aryans, germanic folk...look at the names, Harry, no eastern folks!
And Hiwis at the end of the war (especially during the war in Russia), not members.

The LSSAH was the jewel in Hitler's crown, don't forget that!

As the SS began to swell with new recruits, the LSSAH remained the pinnacle of Hitler's Aryan ideal. Strict recruitment regulations meant that only those deemed sufficiently Aryan, as well as being physically fit and National Socialists, would be admitted.

Believe you me Harry! ;)
The LSSAH is a long time interest of mine...

12 SS

PS: 12th SS was the Hitler Jugend Division.

Comprised of indoctrinated german Hitler youth under the guidance of officers and NCO's from the LSSAH.
No czech, polish or ukrainian youth here either, not even Hiwis as they only saw action on the western front, for sure!

Your source is misinformed....

"SS divisions have a certain percentage of Ukrainians, Czechs and Poles. 1 SS and 12 SS belong to that group."

That is wrong!
Harry
3 Dec 2010 #69
Aryans...look at the names, Harry, no eastern folks!

Well, apart from the 300 Russians....

Believe you me Harry! ;)
The LSSAH is a long time interest of mine...
Your source is misinformed....

As noted above, I'm rather more inclined to believe a source from the time who was actually there then than somebody who was neither there nor then.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,790
3 Dec 2010 #70
Well, apart from the 300 Russians....

Hiwis weren't members Harry..."Hilfswillige", it's quite different. They neither had to follow the ideals of the Nazi Ideology nor do they had to apply to the standards of selection for membership as they weren't members of the Waffen-SS.

They did chose between the misery of a POW camp and helping the german troops carry their stuff, practically a choice between life and death.

As noted above, I'm rather more inclined to believe a source from the time who was actually there then than somebody who was neither there nor then.

May I ask for your source?
Who told you that a polish, ukrainian or czech youth ever was a member of the 12th SS Hitler Jugend?

...that is to funny!
Harry
3 Dec 2010 #71
Hiwis aren't members Harry...

So you agree it is possible that they were Hiwis? Interesting, according to nott, Poles were never recruited as Hiwis.

May I ask for your source?

As stated above, the source is "Information Communication No. 3 for the period 031,800 to 041,800." ("Komunikat Informacyjny nr 3 za czas 031800 do 041800".) written on 4 August 1944 by Capt. Tadeusz Wysocki, an officer of Polish 1st Armoured Division. The links are all there. Click them.

The source I took the quote from goes on to state "During the fighting in Normandy in the summer of 1944 the Allies captured large numbers of soldiers of the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS, so the information about the Poles in 1 SS division and 12 SS division could have come from prisoners (among whom undoubtedly were also Poles)."
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,790
3 Dec 2010 #72
So you agree it is possible that they were Hiwis? Interesting, according to nott, Poles were never recruited as Hiwis.

Of course, Hiwis were par of the course on the eastern front. But they were not used as soldiers but helpers with the more menial duties. They were prisoners of war after all who had just shortly before still fighted against the Germans.

Click them.

I let google translate it and I found that one:

...
This document is a note: "SS divisions have a certain percentage of Ukrainians, Czechs and Poles. 1 SS and 12 SS belong to the group."
The communication refers to an SS Panzer Division "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler", and 12 Panzer Division "Hitler Youth", which in August 1944 fought in Normandy, among others against the Polish 1st Armoured Division.
Both of these units were German divisions, and so used the Poles had to be either citizens of the Third Reich, a Polish national, or Poles from Silesia, Pomerania and Great Poland, entered on Volksliste.
During the fighting in Normandy in the summer of 1944 the Allies captured were placed in huge crowds of soldiers of the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS, so the information about the Poles in an SS division, and 12 could have come from prisoners (among whom undoubtedly were also Poles).

Volksliste, huh?
Don't tell me we go into that old argument again???

Volksliste is not ethnic polish. The Waffen-SS got and the Wehrmacht was chronically short of soldiers, hence the Volksliste and the recruitment of anybody who could proof their german heritage in the whole of Europe, regardless of the country they were in, but you know that Harry.

Of course there had been non-german Waffen-SS divisions like SS Wiking and others but I wonder about the mention of especially the 1st and the 12th SS, the two most (together with the 3rd SS Totenkopf) the most least likely units to have non-germanics in their ranks.
OP PennBoy 76 | 2,432
3 Dec 2010 #73
There were 600 Polish soldiers from the Polish 1st Tadeusz Kościuszko Infantry Division (which was the Berling Army in service of the Soviets) who succeeded in fleeing from the Bolsheviks and deserting to the German Wehrmacht
guesswho 4 | 1,278
3 Dec 2010 #74
Why argue guys?

Here we go: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS_divisions
whole bunch of foreigners there but as far as the 1st LSSAD, I strongly assume, there were only 100% Germans in this unit.
Harry
3 Dec 2010 #75
Apart from the British, South African, French, Belgian, Italian, Swedish, Norwegian etc volunteers whose names are known.

But this all comes back to the very simple fact that, despite Polish claims that their nation is 100% perfect, Poles were recruited into the SS and as Hiwis and Poland ran concentration camps before and after the war. If Poles want historical accuracy from others, are they willing to display it themselves?
OP PennBoy 76 | 2,432
3 Dec 2010 #76
despite Polish claims that their nation is 100% perfect

No nation is perfect i never said no Poles collaborated but the overwhelming majority didn't, far less than some other nations.
Harry
3 Dec 2010 #77
Fair point, you didn't say that. It was nott who claimed that Poles were never recruited into the SS or as Hiwis. Of course as as soon as he's exposed as a liar and multiple sources are used to show this, he goes all quiet.
guesswho 4 | 1,278
3 Dec 2010 #78
Apart from the British, South African, French, Belgian, Italian, Swedish, Norwegian etc volunteers whose names are known.

can you provide a link, please?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,790
3 Dec 2010 #79
Poles were recruited into the SS

Nope!
My translation:

There are no polish units to find which took part in the fights on the german side. At least no one which in any kind showed their national character.
On reason was the stand of the polish society which in their overwhelming majority rejected any compromise with the occupiers. On the other hand can the Poles thank Hitler for their image as the "only people without a Quisling"
Offers to build polish units which were made to him from parts of the german establishment and certain polish circles did Hitler wholly reject till end 1944.

What is so hard to understand here???
OP PennBoy 76 | 2,432
3 Dec 2010 #80
People People this is history, the people who did this are dead or on their death beds lets move on.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,790
3 Dec 2010 #81
Heey...but I love our military history! WWII is fascinating!
OP PennBoy 76 | 2,432
3 Dec 2010 #82
i love history too, but i mean lets not be concerned who and when did what crimes, its over
Harry
3 Dec 2010 #83
can you provide a link, please?

I already have. [forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=32569] - For the second time.

Nope!

Fine: you know better than the order of Himmler and Polish army officers who fought against Polish SS. Well done you!

People People this is history, the people who did this are dead or on their death beds lets move on.

So you don't support the campaign to make sure that the term "Polish concentration camps" is only used in the correct way? Odd.
guesswho 4 | 1,278
3 Dec 2010 #84
People People this is history, the people who did this are dead or on their death beds lets move on.

This is exactly what I've been suggesting many times on PF, the war is over, let's move on.
I like history myself but I have to admit that stirring it up all the time awakes lots of hatred feelings between people.

I already have. For the second time.

oh, this is just another forum, I was hoping to get a concrete link to this information.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,790
3 Dec 2010 #85
Fine: you know better than the order of Himmler and Polish army officers who fought against Polish SS. Well done you!

For the polish witness:

The Waffen-SS belongs probably to the most researched part of the german forces for more than 6 decades now. And there aren't any polish units, that's just a fact.

On the other hand I have maybe one explanation why one witness say such things. Because especially the LSSAH and later the Hitler Jugend division were extremely famous units. They were big in propaganda and everybody knew about them.

I gather this witness used those two units because he heard of them, not because any other more intimate aquaintance.

For Himmler:

Why do you ignore the rest of the article? It's from your own link, didn't you read it???

not in English

Hitler REJECTED Himmlers and Franks idea wholly!!!
And with racial reasoning at that...
guesswho 4 | 1,278
3 Dec 2010 #86
racial reasoning

That's why I'm strongly assuming that 1st LSSAH was free of foreigners.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,790
3 Dec 2010 #87
Well...foreigner isn't foreigner.

The narrative was that of a germanic people...Germans, those of german heritage and peoples with germanic heritage. Those could gain entry into the Waffen SS as it was seen as a truly international army where the soldiers from all over Europe shared the same heritage, values and goals.

National borders didn't meant a thing, but race and blood was everything!

In the beginning the LSSAH was of course german citizens only but during the course of the war individuals with germanic heritage who fit the high racial standards and where willing to kill and be killed for the Führer came from the conquered western and northern countries to replenish the ranks which suffered more and more from the battle losses.

But it was never to that amount as in other units. The LSSAH held after all the pride of the place of all units till the end.
guesswho 4 | 1,278
3 Dec 2010 #88
Germans, those of german heritage and peoples with germanic heritage. Those could gain entry into the Waffen SS

Of course but I was talking about the 1st LSSAH (not just Waffen SS) and it was his personal Leibstandarte and that's why I said what I said.

Yeah OK, later on, they couldn't be really that choosy about their recruitment.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,790
3 Dec 2010 #89
Umm...na ja...inviting non-germans of germanic stock once the war had started wasn't seen as choosy(contrary to the more colorful units of later like the bosnian muslim unit etc. - THAT was pure desperation!), but as building of a truly aryan european army so to speak. Once accepted they had the same duties and privileges and they had to be obeyed like german officers.

There was a strong sense of international brotherhood on a kind of a holy crusade...nationalities ceased to matter.
OP PennBoy 76 | 2,432
3 Dec 2010 #90
Himmlers and Franks idea wholly!!!
And with racial reasoning at that...

I thought they were fanatical racists seeing Poles as Untermensch BB? just two years back Himmler was upset with Albert Forster's policy of Germanizing whole sections of Poles without checking racial requirements, or was was it just because Germany needed more soldiers?


Home / News / Victory in 'anti-Polish camps' campaign in US