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Smoking ban in Polish bars and restaurants (AT LAST!)


Ashleys mind 3 | 456
19 Nov 2010 #331
You had the right to smoke... now that right has been taken away. You may feel like you are being punished, but it is in your best interest, just like taxes and traffic lights.

**** happens. Stop wheezing, I mean whining. ;)
Seanus 15 | 19,706
19 Nov 2010 #332
I am not a smoker. What I object to is society permitting people to become addicted through clever advertising and developing attractive options like slims and then taking it all away while pharmaceutical companies promote their inhalers and patches. WE created smokers, we did!
Ashleys mind 3 | 456
19 Nov 2010 #333
Society permitting...? Hindsight is a wonderful thing... foresight is as rare as a palm tree in Siberia!

I think a lot of that power you talk about has now been shifted away from the Marketers and Advertisers back into the hands of the discerning public, through pressure groups and independent watchdogs.

And although advertisers still use ever more sophisticated methods to cajoule us into falling for or supporting certain trends, there is ever more evidence now that individual's decisions are based on stark fact and a scientific appropriation of the truth, and not on lies and deceit created by spin, endorsed by government (who said you could trust government anyway...?;)) and unleashed by media who is at once friend and then foe (...like the slut that is in bed with everyone).

We are only now starting to understand the psychological effects that the opiate of mass media has on mass consumption. And only through continually cquestioning the many aspects of propaganda that are readily detected it in all realms of public life, can we observe its effect on our own sub conscience.

I quit smoking on the rationale that anything I decided was a good idea when I was 14, should probably be re-evaluated when I became an adult (I decided this was 20yrs old :P). When I looked at the evidence, It just seemed silly to continue...

So while I had been a consumer of cigarettes for many years, I decided that in fact I was being consumed. I wanted my mind back and I wanted to be free of exaggerated attachment.... so I kicked the HABIT.

..."How absurd men are! They never use the liberties they have, they demand those they do not have. They have freedom of thought, they demand freedom of speech."
convex 20 | 3,978
19 Nov 2010 #334
Come on, you don't want people to smoke in a place that sells alcohol.....because of health reasons? You're against it because it bothers you. Fair enough, but at least be honest about it.

By not smoking, you're not railing against consumerism, it's a product, just like anything else. Just like my bar is, fair trade coffee, hostels, airplanes, this website...

PS, I'm still not smoking...but fully support those who do in private!
Barney 14 | 1,472
19 Nov 2010 #335
What I object to is society permitting people to become addicted ...... WE created smokers, we did

I couldnt agree more.

Come on, you don't want people to smoke in a place that sells alcohol.....because of health reasons?

A big smile at a simple truth.

The supermarket thing is important but so is the nature of the bar. Big crowded cattle market pubs are a hell hole at the best of times, with added smoke they are (for me) unbearable.

I like places with a fire and faces, where people read the paper from the back. Smoking has always been a part of bar culture and is being attacked because politicians dont like super pubs.
Olaf 6 | 956
19 Nov 2010 #336
Harry, I wouln't count in occasional smokers. If so, that would include lots of other people who don't see that problem of a ban, even me, and I would never ever smoke in a pub 'cause it stinks and shows total lack of culture and respect for others. Just as I never **** in a swimming pool. I am occasional smoker as I smoke about 2 cigarettes per 6 weeks or more. If you exclude that - my calculation sounds right, as I took the numbers from your source, but without occasional smokers.
convex 20 | 3,978
19 Nov 2010 #337
Big crowded cattle market pubs are a hell hole at the best of times, with added smoke they are (for me) unbearable.

With all the regulation and costs around running a business now a days, it's not feasible to run a small place with a couple of patrons and make any kind of money off of it. The only way to do that is to run a living room extension/hobby bar with no expectation of profit. If you're place isn't packed, you're not able to pay rent/mortgage...not to mention any staff fees if you have any.

I like places with a fire and faces, where people read the paper from the back.

Me too actually, that's why I usually drink with friends at places where we can choose the music.

Smoking has always been a part of bar culture and is being attacked because politicians dont like super pubs.

I think the politicians love the superpubs, they do everything possible to support them legislatively :(
still_wisher 7 | 97
19 Nov 2010 #338
sorry to add this stupid question cuz i'm lazy to read all posts probably someone answered already , I met a friend yesterday and he said that it's banned also to smoke in streets not only bus stations !! is that true ??
Harry
19 Nov 2010 #339
Harry, I wouln't count in occasional smokers.

Occasional smokers are not smokers? Given that your argument is not based on any form of truth or logic anyway, of course you wouldn't count smokers as smokers.

Just as I never **** in a swimming pool.

Would you go to a swimming pool which has big signs up saying "Need a piiss? Please piiss in the pool."? Would you go there and whine incessantly about people piissing in the pool or would you go to another pool? So why do you think you can go into a bar that allows smoking and whine about that?

You are like a person who goes to a swimming pool and stands the shallow end of the pool piissing into it, when the owner complains about what you're doing you tell him "I don't care what you think people should be allowed to do on your property!" And you'd probably go on to point out that it is better for your health for you to piiss in the pool than to go and use a toilet. because let's face it: you are far more likely to be injured slipping on a wet floor than you are to get lung cancer from passive smoking in a bar for a couple of hours per week.
Olaf 6 | 956
19 Nov 2010 #340
Would you go to a swimming pool which has big signs up saying "Need a piiss? Please piiss in the pool."?

- I just do not remember ever seeing or entering a place where it had a sign saying: smoking advised, or welcome dear smokers, or please smoke!

And let's face you are trying to use the ridiculous argument that if piiss-pool swimmers want to proceed in their piiss-pool swimming preferences, then it's ok. Bear n mind, swimming pools are public if you open them to public - they have owners, private proprietors etc. but still, they are public unless you close them under the name of e.g. a smoking club.

Ok, I'm done, Harry. No serious arguments will come after that so I end this with statement that we don't agree, but [maybe, hopefully] see our points and that's that.
convex 20 | 3,978
19 Nov 2010 #341
Bear n mind, swimming pools are public if you open them to public - they have owners, private proprietors etc. but still, they are public unless you close them under the name of e.g. a smoking club.

Open to the public does not mean public. It is at the owners discretion in almost every country on earth, who from the public is allowed into their private establishment :)
Olaf 6 | 956
19 Nov 2010 #342
Open to the public does not mean public.

Exactly it does mean that, according to the definition. Do you have any other definition? I think lawyers describe public space/place as a space/place that is accesible to... [...surprise...]

...

and the atmosphere of suspence is almost unbareable...

...

the public!!! Or just people :)
Seanus 15 | 19,706
19 Nov 2010 #343
I can draw an analogy to war. In an ideal world, it would never happen, like smoking. However, the option is always put on the table to harm people and take the chance to profit by selling weapons and engaging in a bit of global restructuring. Then people engage in peace processes, trying to be seen as humanitarian and fair (oh dear!!). The same as people who deal in rehab and detox. HUGE profits!! There are profits for tobacco companies, of course. However, a bigger battle is being waged. Tobacco giants Vs Pharmaceutical big guns :) I can't see a compromise option emerging but smokers will be doing their utmost to turn the tide again.

I don't want to make out that I'm pro-smokers here. In fact, not having the option of smoking in a bar is a good thing for me and for many others, for smokers that are trying to quit too.
convex 20 | 3,978
19 Nov 2010 #344
Exactly it does mean that, according to the definition. Do you have any other definition? I think lawyers describe public space/place as a space/place that is accesible to... [...surprise...]

No actually. If it were a public space, I could walk into a bar, sit down, and a read a newspaper all day long without buying something. If it were a public space, you could hand out fliers about the evils of smoking inside. If it were a public space, people could come in not wearing shoes. If it were a public space, I would have the right to throw you out. Indeed, it was public space, I wouldn't be able to lock the doors, as I wouldn't be the owner. Public spaces are owned by the public.

Open to the public, not public property, or a public space. It's very much private property.
Harry
19 Nov 2010 #345
we don't agree, but [maybe, hopefully] see our points and that's that.

I see your point. I just see no justification for you to force your point onto anybody else.
Olaf 6 | 956
19 Nov 2010 #346
My argument is from legal point of view, yours is wishful thinking - you CAN do the things you mention but the staff/proprietor of a bar can tell you to leave, just as they can allow or not allow smoking or farting (though the last being often hard, as it's not easy to find the culprit).

Public spaces are owned by the public.

Where did you get this idea from? Also, I guess I did not write public property but private place open to public (thus fulfilling the def. of a public place - not public property)
Seanus 15 | 19,706
23 Nov 2010 #347
The good thing about places in Poland is that there are many alleyways/lanes that you can duck off into. Going outside can be a welcome break from dry conversation too. I also like taking a breather from conversing too long.
Olaf 6 | 956
23 Nov 2010 #348
See, that's the right attitude! Way to go Seanus.

I just see no justification for you to force your point onto anybody else.

- Not forcing anyone, just getting back the rights of the not addicted majority. The smokers never care for that so this controversial law had to be imposed, sorry.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
23 Nov 2010 #349
Thanks, Olaf :) A further deterrent to smoking may be the weather. Nobody will want to freeze their bolloc*s off out in the late Dec/early Jan cold. Well, at least women won't be affected ;) ;)

It's not like the right to smoke has been taken away and it was a pest when you were eating some good food and a strong smell of smoke wafted your way. Sometimes tobacco smells good but second-hand smoke rarely does.
Olaf 6 | 956
23 Nov 2010 #350
No argument here and we agree.
Except maybe:

Nobody will want to freeze their bolloc*s off out in the late Dec/early Jan cold.

- My grandma always said to keep your bolloc*s cold. Does she know something we don't know?
peterweg 37 | 2,321
23 Nov 2010 #351
Open to the public, not public property, or a public space. It's very much private property.

Fine if its private, as such you cannot sell alcohol or tobbaco to anyone.

However, if you want a license to do so, you have to follow the laws of the land. Same if you employ anyone staff, delivery people or cleaners then its a workplace and again there are laws and rights. Staff a not slaves, for instance. You don't own them by employing them just as you don't own the customers who visit your 'private' bar.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
23 Nov 2010 #352
She wasn't put through it, Olaf ;)

Even in business, would you insist that your assets were frozen? ;) ;)

I couldn't imagine the atmosphere in a milk bar if smoking was permitted. It'd be awful! There is one here that is so small and would be catastrophic if folk smoked.
Olaf 6 | 956
23 Nov 2010 #353
However, if you want a license to do so, you have to follow the laws of the land. Same if you employ anyone staff, delivery people or cleaners then its a workplace and again there are laws and rights. Staff a not slaves, for instance. You don't own them by employing them just as you don't own the customers who visit your 'private' bar.

Oh, bull's eye! :)

Even in business, would you insist that your assets were frozen? ;)

No! I'm not in prn business anymore! Ron Jeremy bumped me out (not literally).

milk bar

- Milk bars should be protected like nature reserve parks:). It's unique. Just as pomidorowa z makaronem there. They should get peace Nobel prize for this [I know, I know Nobel seems too big but they gave it for much smaller achievements hahah].
Harry
23 Nov 2010 #354
Staff a not slaves,

Quite right: they have the right to refuse to take the job in the first place. I have even less sympathy for bar staff who complain about passive smoking because of their job than I do for taxi drivers who complain that they are more likely to die in a road traffic accident because of their job.
convex 20 | 3,978
23 Nov 2010 #355
However, if you want a license to do so, you have to follow the laws of the land.

That is fair enough, I understand the concept of licensing. I know you can ban anything you like, tyranny of the majority and all.

Staff a not slaves, for instance. You don't own them by employing them just as you don't own the customers who visit your 'private' bar.

No I don't force them do anything, you're right about that. Everyone voluntarily walks through those doors. Proponents of this kind of legislation argue that they are forced to go to places full of smoke. Who forces them there? Last time I checked, staff are free to leave at anytime.

The "health" argument is a dangerous one in this case. The next logical step would be to ban the same of alcohol if "health of the people" was a concern. As pointed out earlier, more innocent bystanders die and are harmed by alcohol (accidents, perpetrators of assault) than cigarettes. I can't think of any reason not to ban alcohol based on the reasons for implementing this law. This is the root of my concerns, not whether to ban smoking or not...but simply the need to regulate something that people willingly expose themselves to. Dunno, I guess I'm more in the "let the individual decide what they want"...especially in a case like this where there are choices available.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
23 Nov 2010 #356
A milk bar is an intimate wee place and shouldn't be a smoke-filled affair. I'd be mortified if sb started puffing away there as it's for me and others to enjoy some good food. Pierogi ruskie bez dymu, proszÄ™ :)
vndunne 43 | 279
30 Nov 2010 #357
Not sure if this was mentioned...but i was in 'Paparazzi' bar in warsaw the other night. They have sectioned off an area with enough room for about 5 people and 1 table near the door. THIS IS FOR THE NON SMOKERS!!! The rest of the bar, about 97% of it is given over to smokers!!!! Makes a farce of the law. but nothing new there.
Ashleys mind 3 | 456
30 Nov 2010 #358
How's this old thread coming along? Not *puffed out* yet...? ;)
Nojas 4 | 110
30 Nov 2010 #359
Biggest problem when they banned smoking from bars in Sweden, was the wide range of disgusting odors that was exposed in a flash. Sweat, cooking odors, farts... Awfull.

Smoking ban fun fact:

They banned smoking because it was a danger to the health of people working in pubs and restaurants. After the ban I was out having a beer, but it was hard to get service because all the waiters/bartenders were outside... Smoking.
Ashleys mind 3 | 456
30 Nov 2010 #360
They banned smoking because it was a danger to the health of people working in pubs and restaurants. After the ban I was out having a beer, but it was hard to get service because all the waiters/bartenders were outside... Smoking.

SMOKING... linked to bad service...


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