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Russian air traffic controllers ignored communication protocol of Polish pilots?


Robert Warren
12 Apr 2010 #91
southern

Why didn’t they acknowledge?

- How could I know? Because they didn’t know Russian well.

There was no one on board who spoke Russian?

- There were, but the Russian numbers were like black magic to them.

I don't pretend to be an aviation expert, but, from what I am able to read between the lines is that:

1) According to the information provided by the traffic controller on the ground and regardless of the fog, this should have been a routine landing. Planes land without an incident in such, or worst conditions each and every day.

2) The Polish crew was top notch. You don't get to fly the presidential plane unless you are absolutely best at what you do.
2) Anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of geopolitics and/or linguistics will tell you that Polish pilots do speak Russian very well. If anything else, the Russian numbers were certainly NOT of any challenge to them, and most certainly were not, as described by the air traffic controller a "black magic" to the crew.

3) The instrumentation on that plane was labeled in Russian - wouldn't you think that you have to know the language in order to read the instruments?

4) A descend path of any landing plane is based on its calculated ALTITUDE
5) The plane landed or was guided by an air traffic controller who DID NOT know (and admitted to it) what the altitude of the plane that was landing was.

3) No one (at least those seeking credible reporting) attaches all that much value to what the "Gazeta Wyborcza" prints.

Robert

The Gazeta recreation showed the plane crashing, then exploding.

We have two different scenarios here.

And neither of these are "scientific" by any stretch of imagination. All they are, are cheep flash animations that even a 10-year old can create on their computer. What value if any do these animations have? Any value? Nyet!

Robert
Seanus 15 | 19,706
12 Apr 2010 #92
Stay up was the standard advice given the situation. Also, in the absence of any clear and safe prospect of landing, diversion made sense. I just hope that the black box doesn't yield 'unfortunate' happenings.
TIT 5 | 211
12 Apr 2010 #93
What value if any do these animations have? Any value? Nyet!

what value?
well, you have 2 pages story, and if you a journalist you earn fare share of money for that
vionescu1961 - | 9
12 Apr 2010 #94
It's a long debate at our TV channels (Romanian) with regard to this plain crash.
We have also, a Romanian pilot who crashed with Tu 154 (same plain) in 1980' in Pacific Ocean, and he is explaining what could happened (He survived with the all passengers).

First of all, the protocols have to be subject of a serious and carefully investigation. In this respect, some doubts there are regarding the Russian counterpart. It is strange that Polish pilots have tried for 4 times to land. This is unusual for a good pilot. What happened ? What factor could influenced him to react in such way ? It is possible that an external force could influenced the psychology of the pilots in order to annihilate their thinking and the speed of their reaction ? Technically it might be possible. But, I'm coming back with the protocols:

a) a big mistake was made by the Polish authorities, because it is unacceptable to give access in the same plain to all the heads of the army and secret services;

b) the second protocol is to supervise the plain (technically), the route, and alternative routes. Such things are prepared early in time, not suddenly or by case;

c) the pilot had to be prepared in Russian language, if the plain is Russian, due to technically issues. So, I don't thing that Russian language was an obstacle between pilots and control tower. Much important was the instructions received by the pilots from the control tower of the Smolensk airport. It is important to transmit proper and accurate information, and in time ! (the time is very important, also). The black boxes shall clarify such things. But I wonder, the possible impact of intervention on the human psyche. Therefore, such accident, maybe is not an accident.

Valentin Ionescu, lawyer, Bucharest, Romania
Seanus 15 | 19,706
12 Apr 2010 #95
But Robert makes a number of good points. Yes, they give rise to a conspiracy but if it was just a pilot error then it shouldn't be that hard to disprove things. Many are suggesting it. Many in Poland suspect foul play as many Americans did over 9/11. However, I have seen no plausible theories of how foul play could possibly come about.
Jed - | 165
12 Apr 2010 #96
It is strange that Polish pilots have tried for 4 times to land. This is unusual for a good pilot.

It was not confirmed later - it crashed from the first attempt for landing.

The whole preparation of this visit and flight looks very strange...
Robert Warren
12 Apr 2010 #97
you earn fare share of money for that

No kidding! People do and say all sorts of things each and every day for money. They will do the same because of their political convictions, or political expediency reasons. However, in order to truly valuate Gazeta Wyborcza, and its stories, you really need to be familiar with its less-than-stellar history.

Robert
Trevek 26 | 1,702
12 Apr 2010 #98
How the heck could they have such an in-depth conversation and NOT understand Russian numbers. My wife heard an interview this morning with the pilot's boss, who said the guy spoke very fluent Russian.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,795
12 Apr 2010 #99
However, in order to truly valuate Gazeta Wyborcza, and its stories, you really need to be familiar with its less-than-stellar history.

What less-than-stellar history is this, apart from the history of mocking Solidarity-Catholic types?
southern 75 | 7,096
12 Apr 2010 #101
There were, but the Russian numbers were like black magic to them.

I have the suspicion polish confused some numbers told in russian because in polish they mean other numbers.It happens to me when I try to speak russian to Poles,they don't get the numbers especially.
peterweg 36 | 2,316
12 Apr 2010 #102
1) According to the information provided by the traffic controller on the ground and regardless of the fog, this should have been a routine landing. Planes land without an incident in such, or worst conditions each and every day.

Its not routine to land at a military airport without navigation aids to allow landing in bad weather. Minimum visibility to land was 1000m - it was between 150m and 400m when they attempted to land

2) The Polish crew was top notch. You don't get to fly the presidential plane unless you are absolutely best at what you do.

Maybe but they were flying a aircraft where the options to get a lot of experience was limited. They had a lot of experience considering the aircraft type, but they had very little experience compared to most commercial flights. Basically they were relatively in-experienced less than 2000hours versus 20,000 hours for many commercial pilots.

2) Anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of geopolitics and/or linguistics will tell you that Polish pilots do speak Russian very well. If anything else, the Russian numbers were certainly NOT of any challenge to them, and most certainly were not, as described by the air traffic controller a "black magic" to the crew.

To fly the 154 requires Russian language proficiency - its part of the training. So yes they must have been proficient in Russian.

3) The instrumentation on that plane was labeled in Russian - wouldn't you think that you have to know the language in order to read the instruments?

See above.

4) A descend path of any landing plane is based on its calculated ALTITUDE

Do you mean altitude relative to the airport, or sea level? And it depends on air pressure which varies with the weather. Russia uses a different system for altitude to some countries. This is potentially a source of confusion.

5) The plane landed or was guided by an air traffic controller who DID NOT know (and admitted to it) what the altitude of the plane that was landing was.

[/quote]

The pilot flies the aircraft, not ATC. The airport wasn't equipped to give altitude information - which is reason why they suggested diverting. The 154 pilot stop providing altitude information to ATC which made their further assistance impossible.
TIT 5 | 211
12 Apr 2010 #103
To fly the 154 requires Russian language proficiency

if you fly these to for ex US you have to communicate in Russian with ATC :) :) :)
Robert Warren
12 Apr 2010 #104
delphiandomine

What less-than-stellar history is this, apart from the history of mocking Solidarity-Catholic types?

Well, these "Solidarity-Catholic types" brought freedom to Poland, East Germany, the Czech Republic, Yugoslavia, and others ... The world would have been much different place if these "types" didn't risk their lives. Apparently, many of these "Solidarity-Catholic types" paid for this freedom their lives. Whmmm, what do I know ... :(

Robert

I have the suspicion polish confused some numbers told in russian because in polish they mean other numbers.It happens to me when I try to speak russian to Poles,they don't get the numbers especially.

Actually, quiet to the contrary. They are quiet similar:

Russian Transliteration Polish

1 - один ("a-deen") Jeden
2 - два ("dva") Dwa
3 - три ("tree") Trzy
4 - четыре ("chye-tir-ye") Cztery
5 - пять ("pyat") Piec
6 - шесть ("shest") Szesc
7 - семь ("syem") Siedem
8 - восемь ("vo-syem") Osiem
9 - девять ("dyev-yat") Dziewiec
10 -десять ("dyes-yat") Dziesiec

Very close, if not identical ...

Robert
delphiandomine 83 | 17,795
12 Apr 2010 #105
Well, these "Solidarity-Catholic types" brought freedom to Poland, East Germany, the Czech Republic, Yugoslavia, and others ... The world would have been much different place if these "types" didn't risk their lives. Apparently, many of these "Solidarity-Catholic types" paid for this freedom their lives. Whmmm, what do I know ... :(

Poland : Solidarity in the 1980's was as much intellectual, Gazeta Wyborcza supporters as it was Catholic Nationalist moustache worker. Many people tend to forget this little, important fact.

East Germany : It was actually more the influence of the Protestant churches than the Catholic church. The Nikolaikirche in Leipzig is a Protestant church. And let's not forget - most of the people behind Neues Forum were hardly religious - most of them wanted a "third way" between Socialism and Capitalism.

The Czech Republic? Little to do with religion - the students started it, and it turned into mass disobedience.

Yugoslavia? The only reason Yugoslavia became "free" was because Milosevic and Trudman were pulling in their own nationalist directions. Again, little to do with religion.

So tell me, what has Gazeta Wyborcza done wrong?
southern 75 | 7,096
12 Apr 2010 #106
It is more with numbers like 50,60 etc.
Sasha 2 | 1,083
12 Apr 2010 #107
Actually, quiet to the contrary. They are quiet similar:

Correct.
South, for a Russian who is listening to Polish speech numeral normally are the most understandable part. Glad to see you back with your authentic account. :)

UPD: pięćdziesiąt (piatdesiat-rus) sześćdziesiąt (shestdesiat)
They sound similar too.
Robert Warren
12 Apr 2010 #108
It is more with numbers like 50,60 etc.

Here we go:

50 - пятьдесят - Piedziesiat
60 - шестьдесят - Szesdziesiat

Sounding quiet similar ... ;)

Robert
convex 20 | 3,978
12 Apr 2010 #109
So tell me

Forgot the Hungarians
Robert Warren
12 Apr 2010 #110
Correct.
South, for a Russian who is listening to Polish speech numeral normally are the most understandable part. Glad to see you back with your authentic account. :)
UPD: pięćdziesiąt (piatdesiat-rus) sześćdziesiąt (shestdesiat)
They sound similar too.

Thanks for the transliteration! ;)

Robert
delphiandomine 83 | 17,795
12 Apr 2010 #111
Forgot the Hungarians

If I remember rightly, the change was initiated from within the Communist Party. Nothing to do with trade union Catholicism at all.
Robert Warren
13 Apr 2010 #112
delphiandomine

Nothing to do with trade union Catholicism at all.

Correct, it was a populous movement driven by universally recognized and cherished human values. These "Catholic-types" were essential in spearheading this truly universal and populous movement. One of these "Catholic-types" was John Paul II. The other one was Anna Walentynowicz who perished on-board of the Doomed Flight to Katyn. Yet another was Kurtyka who devoted his entire life to unveil the truth about the lies and obfuscations. There were countless others, among them those who tragically perished in the flight to Katyn. They will all be missed by all decent human beings. Have no illusions about that!

Robert
Robert Warren - | 4
13 Apr 2010 #113
The pilot flies the aircraft, not ATC

Agree, but .., Russian is NOT and HAS NEVER BEEN sanctioned to be the language used in air-to-ground or ground-to-air communications anywhere in the world. Please correct me if I am wrong. I think this should be emphasized. Polish pilots were not required to speak Russian, however, I am quiet certain they spoke it fluently!

Robert
convex 20 | 3,978
13 Apr 2010 #114
Russian is NOT and HAS NEVER BEEN sanctioned to be the language used in air-to-ground or ground-to-air communications anywhere in the world.

Civ must be able to speak English, there is no such requirement for the military.
Velund 1 | 498
13 Apr 2010 #115
Very close, if not identical ...

Not exactly identical, but perfectly understandable for a Russian who hear Polish speech.

And even more, on my own experience and by opinions of my friends with which I ever discussed this, for a Russian speaking person more than 50% of Polish words is understandable almost immediately (once one will concentrate on what it _sounds_ in Russian, not how it _written_ in Russian). For the ones who know Ukrainian or Belarussian (even litle bit) even more words understandable immediately.

If I don't understand something, it is often enough to ask for some synonim to understand.

There is some words than really can lead to confusion, though. Sounds similar, but have very different meaning. For example, Polish "Uroda" and Russian "Urod"... ;) If you want to say to a Russian girl about their beauty in Polish, words should be selected with care. ;)
Kasper
13 Apr 2010 #116
Therefore, such accident, maybe is not an accident.

Reading a lot of hysterical outbursts by our regular polish forum experts who always seem to know it all (your skills are wasted here) its time to take stock and revisit the facts in the cold light of day, The fact remains is that why a skilled pilot could make such a obvious mistake? Could it be that some facts have been omitted from public knowledge and there is more that we don't know about. Its far too easy to put the blame on the pilot for such a event. Are we to trust the Russians in what they tell us, I have heard that the accident was masterminded by the Russian Secret Service, this we will never know.
f stop 25 | 2,513
13 Apr 2010 #117
Here we go:

50 - пятьдесят - Piedziesiat
60 - шестьдесят - Szesdziesiat

I don't buy it. Fifty and sixty are similar sounding as well. We find ways to deal with it, they do to.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,444
13 Apr 2010 #118
so what is your point Robert. You have been trying to tell us something, yet, you have failed thus far. Spill it out.
f stop 25 | 2,513
13 Apr 2010 #119
I know what he's saying... A lot of these people devoted a chunk of their lives to NOT forgive and forget. Was this really a cleansing mission? Since I don't believe any conspiracy theories in this case, if it is a sign, what is it a sign of? Should Poland keep seeking out the 1940 Katyn culprits or is it really the time to stop living in the past?
Robert Warren - | 4
13 Apr 2010 #120
A lot of these people devoted a chunk of their lives to NOT forgiv

I believe that majority of Poles have forgiven. They were certainly able to forgive the Germans. I am certainly unaware of any calls for bloody reprisals originating from Poland. Have many people chose not to forget? I'd hope they will cultivate memory of not only the victims of Katyn, but also other places where their countrymen were murdered. There is nothing uniquely Polish about their desire to remember the victims. You have to remember that there are many, many Katyns out there. The point at which history repeats itself usually begins with marginalizing the victims. So, in this respect, it truly isn't about living in the past at all.

Robert


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