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Thousands of teachers to lose their jobs in Poland


Atch 17 | 2,993
23 Jun 2017 #31
I don't see any connection to be honest

The proposed educational reforms are part of a two pronged attack. Together with a return to an old model which was failing, the new curriculum reduces time for physics, chemistry, biology and IT in favour of history. How will that help Polish industry and commerce?
gumishu 11 | 5,030
23 Jun 2017 #32
Together with a return to an old model which was failing, the new curriculum reduces time for physics, chemistry, biology and IT in favour of history.

never heard of it - do you have some official source on that? and you know details? like how many hours a week will there be of science and how many more of history?

Together with a return to an old model which was failing,

how do you know it was the old model that was failing btw?
delphiandomine 83 | 17,788
23 Jun 2017 #33
never heard of it - do you have some official source on that?

It was all published a while ago. I'm sure you can find it on the MEN site - the key point was less hours, less science and more history.

how do you know it was the old model that was failing btw?

Numbers don't lie. More to the point, why would anyone want to return to the PRL system when you could have the excellent pre-war system instead?
Atch 17 | 2,993
23 Jun 2017 #34
When Polish students were first tested back in 2000 they performed very poorly, scoring below the European average in the three core areas of maths, reading and science. Now they're among the best. This would indicate that it was the education system which was at fault, not that the students were less intelligent than their peers in other countries.

When the new draft curriuculm was seen by teachers earlier this year the Union said that the new curriculum emphasised rote learning and required reduced hours on the maths and science subjects with more time to be spent on history. The Ministry for Education said that it wanted to introduce a new model of education whose aims were for " children finishing school to value their mother tongue and culture, with all its heritage," it said. "We want to step away from common education methods that are all about taking tests." Now I would say, as a teacher myself, that the goal of education should be to prepare children for life and create well rounded, independent thinkers with useful skills and good general knowledge of the wider world.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,788
23 Jun 2017 #35
We want to step away from common education methods that are all about taking tests."

Which is quite strange, given that their plan for the 8th class exam is to have one big exam that will effectively determine the future of children.

We shouldn't kid ourselves, this is a simple and straight return to the PRL system. Amusing to watch people defend the Communist system of education over the pre-war system, though.
gumishu 11 | 5,030
23 Jun 2017 #36
When Polish students were first tested back in 2000 they performed very poorly, scoring below the European average in the three core areas of maths, reading and science.

Atch the gymniasiums were introduced in 1997 or 8 don't remember exactly - there are many factors involved in the PISA scores, including the average intelligence of children which may not be constant as you probably imagine - one thing is also that Polish schooling system was meanwhile specifically adapted to scoring better in tests - including the PISA tests which is eventually pointless except to show international success
OP Harry
23 Jun 2017 #37
their plan for the 8th class exam is to have one big exam that will effectively determine the future of children.

Not at all! The result will be meaningless compared to the matter of whether or not the parents are loyal members of the Party, just as things were in what 'Polish' no doubt thinks of as the good old days.
gumishu 11 | 5,030
23 Jun 2017 #38
and required reduced hours on the maths and science subjects with more time to be spent on history.

will there be more history than science Atch?(I strongly doubt it) or there will be just one more history lesson per week and one less science subject per week - I was educated in the previous system and I believe I am quite well educated - my intelligence was definitely higher than my peers though (my intelligence has since deteriorated considerably though and I'm only avarage now I guess) - so maybe I am biased - anyway Polish university authorities have for years now complained about the falling of the quality of new students - this definitely was in part because of cutting licea and technika by one year
Crow 137 | 7,850
23 Jun 2017 #39
but it's what First Secretary of the Party Chairman Kaczynski wants, so it's happening.

I see, Harry, little one, you attacking again. You fear for jobs of Anglo teachers in Poland? You fear for status of English language in Poland?
gumishu 11 | 5,030
23 Jun 2017 #40
independent thinkers with useful skills and good general knowledge of the wider world

I consider myself having quite a good general knowledge and I was educated in the previous system, school preparing children to take tests (of course it depends on tests too) is not really making them independent thinkers
OP Harry
23 Jun 2017 #41
You fear for jobs of Anglo teachers in Poland?

If you knew anything at all about Poland, you'd know that the state education system being harmed is very good news for British people who want to teach in Poland. But you don't, so you don't.
Atch 17 | 2,993
23 Jun 2017 #42
preparing children to take tests (of course it depends on tests too) is not really making them independent thinkers

I'm not a great fan of standardised testing either and no advocate of teaching with a goal of passing such tests, but the point is that the present government is not proposing any substitute for measuring where students are in terms of standards and in fact it's also proposing an increase in rote learning. The whole thing is very poorly conceived. The Finnish education system, now there's an example of a system that works without testing or excessive homework and with no rote learning.
gumishu 11 | 5,030
23 Jun 2017 #43
More to the point, why would anyone want to return to the PRL system when you could have the excellent pre-war system instead

the old school system was rote learning and not solving problems - this applies as well to the pre-war education in Poland - maybe teachers were better back than I don't know - anyway Polish universities have for years now been complaining about the lower and lower quality of new students, this especially applies to math rich faculties - I believe one of the reasons is cutting the high schools by one year by introducing gymnasiums

The whole thing is very poorly conceived.

maybe you are right Atch - I don't know the details of the new curriculum - I just believe the current system with gymnasia has it drawbacks and one of them is specifically the preoccupation with preparing children to taking tests
Atch 17 | 2,993
23 Jun 2017 #44
I just believe the current system with gymnasia has it drawbacks

If that's the case, then the correct approach is adaptation and reform of the present secondary school system, not a complete re-hash of the whole system from primary upwards.
Ironside 49 | 10,002
23 Jun 2017 #45
Together with a return to an old model which was failing

The old model wasn't falling. There was plan to build a system with an elementary school (six years) after which pupils would have too choose based on they predispositions to go to a vocational schools (four years) or a profiled gymnasium focused either - stem, humanities or biology subjects (six years).

The stress supposed to be on section - meaning to be a competitive process - not all would have passed.
Between gymnasium and universities there would be another tier for those who wasn't willing or good enough to study - three/four years old schools teaching a profession. those like teaching languages for the future teachers or translators, and many more need professions.

What those commie tools have done with it - one can see - some travesty of the idea. Plenty of schools to create new placeless for their cronies to make monies. Damn soviet monkeys .
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
27 Jun 2017 #46
no legal responisibility

But it's not illegal. There is no law saying a party leader must head up the govt. Since JK is not a charismatic speaker but a skilled behind-the-scenes strategist, that is the best solution for PiS.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
27 Jun 2017 #47
in favour of history

You sound a lot liek Mayfixit. To him a knowledge of one's nation's history and culural heritage plus 4.40 zł will get you a ride on any Warsaw public-transport conveyance.

Sure there's room for cynical careerists who know the price of everything, but the value of nothing that isn't calculated in dollars and cents or złotys and grosze. Poland by contrast wants to devleop the total human and that is in sync with many of today's Polish youths. History, patriotism, Żołnierzre Wyklęci, historical re-enactments, etc. are now more popular than ever before. It'd be a shame if young Poles were turned into a mindless army of dumb dolts like their US counterparts, glued to their smatrphones and wasting their young lives texting and playing computer games.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
27 Jun 2017 #48
in favour of history

You sound a lot liek Mayfixit. To him a knowledge of one's nation's history and culural heritage plus 4.40 zł will get you a ride on any Warsaw public-transport conveyance.

Sure there's room for cynical careerists who know the price of everything, but the value of nothing that isn't calculated in dollars and cents or złotys and grosze. Poladn wants to devleop the total human and that is in sync with many of today's Polish youths. History, patriotism, Żołnierzre Wyklęci, historical re-enactments, etc. are now more popular than ever before. It'd be a shame if young Poles were turned into a mindless army of dumb dolts like their US counterparts, glued to their smatrphones and wasting their young lives texting and playing computer games.
mafketis 21 | 7,603
27 Jun 2017 #49
To him a knowledge of one's nation's history and culural heritage plus 4.40 zł will get you a ride on any Warsaw public-transport conveyance.

you misrepresent me, I said that those don't make you Polish (like you're not Polish except in your own very odd mind), but of course a knowledge of a country's history is an important part of education (as long as it's reasonably balanced and not just deraned PiS propaganda).
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,514
27 Jun 2017 #50
I heard that they reorganized the whole liceum gimnazium etc system and that it matches basically the us system. Again this is just what I have heard while in poland... Im sure this will affect many teachers though and students will be merely reorganized. Unfortunately teachers at that level don't get as much respect in polish society or good wages like they would in the us for example. Only professors tend to command high salaries and respect in polish society.

My aunt is a grade school teacher I believe 1st grade or some other really young grade. When I visited her she told me about the changes but it didn't sound like she was worried about losing her job or anything. She told me actually there's a young Chinese girl in her class who's enrolled in her class. How cool is that
delphiandomine 83 | 17,788
27 Jun 2017 #51
and that it matches basically the us system.

Nah, it's much worse than that. It's a return to the Communist system of having 8 years of primary school and 4 years of high school rather than the previous system that more or less was like the American system.

They're also planning to abolish externally-marked exams (leading to a return to the mass corruption found in the previous system) and to allow universities to conduct their own entry tests again (again, leading to mass corruption and nepotism)
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,514
27 Jun 2017 #52
@delphiandomine

Yea I just meant like the length that's similar to the us - 8 years grade school (plus usually 1 for kindergarten) and 4 years high school. I believe the old system had junior high or something of the sorts. There are some grade schools here that have a separate school or building for 6th to 8th graders. As far as the specifics I couldn't tell ya delph idk. If unis are allowed to give their own tests instead of a standardized one that could def lead to corruption nepotism etc. Typically though from what I've heard the private schools are considered less prestigious than state schools. The opinion is formed because people believe that the private unis will graduate anyone that pays. I don't know how much truth there is to that but nonetheless many poles believe that. I wonder if these changes will affect both the private and public unis though. That also sucks for the student because if say a h.s. senior wants to go to 1 of 3 schools, theorectially if all unis do end up administering their own entrance test, the student would have to take 3 tests rather than 1 standardized entrance exam.
mafketis 21 | 7,603
28 Jun 2017 #53
Yea I just meant like the length that's similar to the us - 8 years grade school (plus usually 1 for kindergarten) and 4 years high school.

The last I knew there was no federal system for education and different places would break up the 12 years (meant to be the same for everyone) in different ways. 4 + 4 + 4, 8 + 4 or 6 +3 +3 are the most common breakdowns. But the big difference between the US system and Europe is the traditional avoidance of tracking until after high school.

IINM the idea of the new system is to start tracking students at the high school level....

They're also planning to abolish externally-marked exams (leading to a return to the mass corruption found in the previous system)

Very bad idea for just that reason.

allow universities to conduct their own entry tests again (again, leading to mass corruption and nepotism)

Mixed mind here, pretty much all university instructors agree that the quality of incoming students started dropping (at the same time that the 'new' matura was introduced). Though that could be a coincidence (like the population drop which means universities are facing smaller numbers of students applying).
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,514
28 Jun 2017 #54
I bet they're all fighting over that Nigerian kid who got a perfect 5.0 in polish high school though lol
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
28 Jun 2017 #55
those don't make you Polish

But a plastic card or paper booklet does? Your UK expat guru thinks so.
mafketis 21 | 7,603
28 Jun 2017 #56
But a plastic card or paper booklet does?

A passport (or tax bill) shows who has actual skin in the game (to use a currently popular term) who's actually thrown in their lot with the country versus the dilettantes.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
28 Jun 2017 #57
reasonably balanced

The definiton of balanced varies. Did the PO scmaster regime achieve the balance you prefer with their elitism and apatriotic stance including clipping the history curriculum in schools? Myself I believe PiS have restored the proper balance -- there's a Gliński for culttral heritage and Morawiecki for autonomous Polish business development. And no scams to compare with the Tusk-blessed AmberGold affair or Gronkiewicz's Warsaw property heist in broad daylight. That alone should make any decent person support Law ad Justice.!


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