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Poland: A Successful case of low criminality in Europe?


Levi_BR 6 | 219
29 Mar 2015 #1
When i see people asking here if Poland is a safe place, i ever think: Compared to Where?
But now i realize how Poland is safe., specially when compared to some countries much more developed.

I think that the most incredible comparison is when we compare the statistics of Poland with a "Developed" country like Sweden.

At Sweden you have 987 cases of assault per 100 thousand habitants every year.

At Poland you have only 2.

The most alarming thing is when you see statistics of Rape:

Sweden is the second country in Rape cases in the world (just after Lesotho, in Africa). 1 in each 4 swedish woman was or will be raped during their lifes.

While Poland have only 4 rapes per 100k habitants/year, Sweden have incredible 53 Rapes per 100k habitants/year.

A Polish woman, in terms of rape, is 13 times safer than a swedish woman.

What makes that difference be so huge?

PS: My sources of information, and also two very recommended article about this issue:
gatestoneinstitute.org/5195/sweden-rape
frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfield/1-in-4-swedish-women-will-be-raped-as-sexual-assaults-increase-500
pam
29 Mar 2015 #2
I have no doubt that you would say that the difference in the high rape statistics between Poland and Sweden is due to the large immigrant population that Sweden has, as exemplified by your links.

What you have failed to take into account is the difference in different countries police procedures and legal definitions.

"In Sweden there has been this ambition explicitly to record every case of sexual violence separately, to make it visible in the statistics," she says.

"So, for instance, when a woman comes to the police and she says my husband or my fiance raped me almost every day during the last year, the police have to record each of these events, which might be more than 300 events. In many other countries it would just be one record - one victim, one type of crime, one record."

bbc

Much as you would like to blame multiculturalism for increased rape and violence, it's not that clear cut a picture.

This thread will be closely monitored btw. If it is just an excuse to rant about Muslims/Islam, it will be closed.
PolskiNorris - | 2
29 Mar 2015 #3
Pam, I guess Google is wrong then? When you type in "how many Muslims in Sweden", you get this:

"Today, 350,000 of Sweden's population of 9.5 million are Muslims. On a recent visit to Sweden, Zahran, a Muslim, saw that the Swedes' welcoming and tolerance have been abused by many Muslims. They respond to Sweden's kindness by seeking to Islamicize the country."

There have been many instances of pro-Muslim native Swedish women that were raped and killed by Islamic immigrants. But of course the truth is not something many want to hear.
pam
29 Mar 2015 #4
I am not trying to say that attacks by immigrants don't occur, I said it's not that clear cut a picture if you had bothered to read my link.

But I am already getting the impression that this thread will have nothing to do with Poland. Any country with a low crime rate could have been inserted into the thread title.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
29 Mar 2015 #5
Your post inspired me to look up intentional crime statistics in general: numbeo.

The data shows Poland to be ranked at 32.99% which is relatively low. For the sake of comparison the most crime-prone countries are:

South Sudan 85.32
Venezuela 84.07
Guatemala 79.34
South Africa 78.44
The safest are:
South Korea 17.99
Turkmenistan 17.86
Singapore 17.59
Isle Of Man 15.10
According to these data, Poland is a more crime-free place to live than such countries as Russia (51.33), USA (50.01), Ireland (49.07), Sweden (42.09), UK (42.16), Canada (37.46) and Spain (33.85).

To what do you ascribe the Poland's comparatively low-crime status? Lack of Thrid World minorities? Strong religious faith? Sense of shame? A combination of these, something else or what?
tictactoe
29 Mar 2015 #6
EU Statistics

Link: //ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Crime_trends_in_detail
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
29 Mar 2015 #7
I should have added: poor law enforcement and poor crime recording as possible contributing factors to a low crime rate.
smurf 39 | 1,981
29 Mar 2015 #8
The great problem with crime statistics that people forget is that they are compiled only from crimes that were reported.
Ridiculous to say that Polish women in Poland are 13 times safer than Swedish women in Sweden.
The way to correctly see this is to say that in Sweden rape victims are 13 times more likely to report being raped.
OP Levi_BR 6 | 219
29 Mar 2015 #9
I Think that Poland is a great and low crime country for few reasons:

1 - The Slavic culture is, within, very peaceful (Ok, i know that i am sounding like the BS that Crow usually says). After so many struggles they united and sometimes i feel that people take care of each other. This is a very beautiful characteristic of the polish culture that all Poles should be extremelly proud and NEVER let anyone try to disrespect it. Even i being brazilian i learned to admire it. Poles should never let immigrants censor their culture.

2 - Poland doesn't see people rioting in the streets for more riots or benefits. After years of Failed Communism, the Polish people learned that you are responsible for yourself, not the government.

3 (AND MORE IMPORTANT): Poland is still a "Political Correctness Frenzy" Free country! That is Wonderful! A Criminal pays when he commit a crime in Poland. Even if he is from a "minority" or from another "Religion"

This thread will be closely monitored btw. If it is just an excuse to rant about Muslims/Islam, it will be closed.

Saw how i focused on Poland and that was not an excuse, dear Pam? Stop persecuting me, this is becoming absurd. Everything that i post you delete and say that i was offending Muslims.

Smurf:
So why Norway, that have a similar "openess" as Sweden, so same standards of crime report, have so many, SO MANYYYYY less rapes than Sweden?

Now i let you to discover: What is the biggest difference between Sweden and Norway? What Sweden have that Norway doesn't have that is causing the rapes?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
29 Mar 2015 #10
Thanks, That's another contributing cause: underreporting. I'm sure there is no one cause in the case of any of these countries.
smurf 39 | 1,981
30 Mar 2015 #11
SO MANYYYYY less rapes than Sweden?

So many less reported rapes.

Look, it's pretty common knowledge that the percentage or rape across the Western world is pretty similar. The thing is that the statistics are only compiled on what is reported, they cannot represent all of the rapes that go unreported. For example, inter-marriage rape, incestual rape & child abuse, these are the least reported types.

Take Ireland from the 1960s the the 1990s, do you think that Catholic priests weren't raping children because it wasn't being reported?
No, of course not. It obviously happened, but the statistics couldn't be compiled until the cases were reported as crimes.

I will also say I'm not dissing Poland in any way whatsoever, I've lived here for a decent while now and I feel far safer here than I did while living in Ireland, particularly when it comes to walking at night. However, I certainly wouldn't like to live in certain areas of Katowice, every town/city has it's bad parts.

What Sweden have that Norway doesn't have that is causing the rapes?

Nothing I reckon. But I bet if you could find figures published by charities run to help victims of rape in both of those countries then you'd probably find that the actual % of rape (reported and unreported) is similar in both countries.

All the figures provided show is that reported instances of rape are higher in Sweden, it doesn't mean that rape is more prevalent in Sweden at all. I would argue actually that it shows that Swedes are more concerned with seeing justice being done than Norwegians. Why is that? Don't know, but it certainly seems like an issue.

Y'know, it's a bit like hearing about a survey that says we should eat less red meat and more white meat, but then you do some digging into who wrote the report and it turns out it was the lobby for turkey farmers.

Look, my point really is that statistics are are well and fine, but they rarely tell the full story.
Wulkan - | 3,251
30 Mar 2015 #12
Ridiculous to say that Polish women in Poland are 13 times safer than Swedish women in Sweden.
The way to correctly see this is to say that in Sweden rape victims are 13 times more likely to report being raped.

The reason why women in Poland are 13 times or something around that safer than the women is Sweden is the fact that there is almost no 3rd world immigration in Poland.
Vox - | 175
30 Mar 2015 #13
The great problem with crime statistics that people forget is that they are compiled only from crimes that were reported.Ridiculous to say that Polish women in Poland are 13 times safer than Swedish women in Sweden.

Ridiculous is what you are saying or rather implying. Unless you have some evidence to back up your claim.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,881
30 Mar 2015 #14
it is because they export the crims
Harry
30 Mar 2015 #15
Yes, and then order the British to pay for the return of criminal masterminds who have committed such heinous crimes as stealing a couple of bars of chocolate or buying a phone which they should have realised was stolen because the price was 50zl too low!
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,881
30 Mar 2015 #16
hmm not too sure about that hazzer
Harry
30 Mar 2015 #17
Actually, I must apologise about that, my memory was playing tricks on me. In reality an EAW was issued for a man who stole 20 chocolate bars:

"I stole chocolate," says Gregg, hanging his head. "Twenty, maybe 25 bars of chocolate."
Gregg, a Polish builder and decorator who now lives in Merseyside, wears a look of regret. He is being extradited from Britain to Poland to face charges, in what critics say is a flawed aspect of Britain's Extradition Act 2003.
Five years ago, on his way to a party in his home town in western Poland, Gregg shoplifted about £70 worth of Milka bars.

bbc.
OP Levi_BR 6 | 219
30 Mar 2015 #18
Nothing I reckon.

Actually they have.

Norway and Sweden have the same cultural and demographic background. Until Sweden import more than 300 thousand Somalis, Afghanis and other "refugees" with Muslim background.

The Western European civilizations including the USA will degenerate from their interiors because of highly reproducing third world country immigrants.

You cannot associate third world with violence. Some of the most peaceful nations of the world. Bhutan (Asia), Mauritius (Africa), Uruguay and Chile (Latin America) are safer than most european countries and are all considered third world (maybe Chile couldnt be considered third world anymore, but is still latin america).

Also, Both Uruguay and Chile are "Western Nations".

So why Bhutan, Mauritius, Uruguay, Chile and Poland are so Safe?

Simple: You don't see people in Warsaw, Santiago or Montevideo ashamed of be Poles, Chileans or Uruguayans. It is not the absence of immigrants, but the fact that immigrants in those countries NEED to assimilate the national culture if they want to stay there.

All those countries are modern secular democracies with catholic majority, and even if an immigrant of another religion goes there he will be accepted, unless he tries to enforce his religion on others. That is how it should be.

Poland is peaceful not because it doesn't have immigrants, but because the immigrants need to assimilate the Polish culture.
Vox - | 175
30 Mar 2015 #19
it is because they export the crims

Hmm, According to statics Poland has been safer place than most long before criminals were offered an opportunity to buy attractive tours aboard. Again, in a certain country which is well known for its custom of putting the blame for all it problems on foreigners, Poles do not even register on any noticeable scale. Other than that criminal stats of the aforementioned country are by the way very impressive, no lagging behind in that regard keeping up with the best on the globe, yes sir.
smurf 39 | 1,981
30 Mar 2015 #20
Until Sweden import more than 300 thousand Somalis, Afghanis and other "refugees" with Muslim background.

Do we have any figures to say these people are committing the 'extra' rapes.

The Norwegians also blame Muslims:
themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2012/08/06/norway-90-of-all-violent-rapes-in-oslo-committed-by-muslims

Although, that's a bullsh!t website run by rightwing nutjobs. But like I've already said, you can use statistics to prove anything, doesn't mean anything though. You are only going on recorded crimes, not on actual crimes. The second figure we'll never know. Things like women's charities have far more reliable figures than just plain old crime stats.

Regarding Sweden:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics
So,
a)Sweden reports more figures to the UNODC than other countries
b)The definition of rape in Swedish law is different than most other countries
c)the EU placed Sweden below other countries when they carried out research
d) Swedish rape victims are more likely to report the crime than people from other countries.

So, just from reading this I understand that maybe Sweden is the only country in Europe telling the truth about rape and other countries should probably follow suit. Sure, it wasn't so long ago that in Ireland rape couldn't be committed if it occurred within marriage. I'm pretty sure it was similar in other traditionally Catholic countries.
nasadki - | 43
31 Mar 2015 #21
You need to look into the rape law in Sweden. If I recall it is very different compared to many other countries.

For example Julian Assange banged a couple broads while in Sweden. Gave them the herpes. They complained to prosecutor together(probably paid by CIA) and got him charged with sexual molestation and a type of rape. He has lived in Ecuadorean Embassy in London for quite awhile now to avoid extradition.
OP Levi_BR 6 | 219
31 Mar 2015 #22
If 77 in each 100 rapes in Poland were commited by supporters of Legia Warsaw, even they being, lets say, just 15% of the population, would people say that the supporters of Legia Warsaw are more inclined to rape?

Do we have any figures to say these people are committing the 'extra' rapes.

Yes. Didnt you saw the links that i posted at my initial comment? Click at the link just below and you will see who commit 77% of the rapes even being just 15% of the population.

Sure, it wasn't so long ago that in Ireland rape couldn't be committed if it occurred within marriage.

Exactly. It was not so long ago but at least this already changed. Here in Arabia, where i live, this is totally legal. A Woman just cannot refuse to have sex if she is married. What is your point? You think that this is fair? This is normal?

a)Sweden reports more figures to the UNODC than other countries

Why a Swedish woman would be much more inclined to report rape than a norwegian woman, both with the same cultural background?
Wulkan - | 3,251
31 Mar 2015 #23
Do we have any figures to say these people are committing the 'extra' rapes.

Yes and they are not made up by the right wing like you would automatically claim.

Although, that's a bullsh!t website run by rightwing nutjobs

well of course, anyone who has the balls to tell the truth is a "rightwing nutjob"

But like I've already said, you can use statistics to prove anything

Interesting excuse
Paulina 9 | 1,448
31 Mar 2015 #24
Sorry, I don't have much time but I just had to intervene here lol:

Sure, it wasn't so long ago that in Ireland rape couldn't be committed if it occurred within marriage. I'm pretty sure it was similar in other traditionally Catholic countries.

LOL
Smurf is "pretty sure", but, of course, smurf won't even bother to check, he will make assumptions though, right? :)

Poland, a very "traditionally Catholic" country, was one of the first countries in the world to criminalize marital rape, actually:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AMarital_rape%2FCountry_lists

"Countries which were early to criminalize marital rape include Poland (1932), Czechoslovakia (1950), the Soviet Union(1960), Denmark (1960), Sweden (1965), Norway (1971), and some other members of the Communist Bloc."

From what I've read the marital rape exemption was abolished in England and Wales only in 1991! In Ireland 1990!
And the absolute record-holder... Germany... brace yourselves...:
"Germany outlawed spousal rape only in 1997, which is later than other developed countries. Female ministers and women's rights activists lobbied for this law for over 25 years."

What the hell... o_O'

I know that for some proud Western souls on this forum "a country like Poland" being more progressive in anything than some Western countries would be something incomprehensible lol But remember that Poland after regaining independence in 1918 immediately granted women the right to vote and be elected, without any restrictions. The first women in the Polish parliament were elected already in 1919.

Polish women didn't even have to fight for those rights, unlike the British women.
France gave their women right to vote only in 1944, Switzerland in 1971 (WTF??) and Liechtenstein in... 1984 (is this a joke or sth...?).
So, yes, "traditionally Catholic" Poland was more "progressive" in some aspects than some of the Western countries.
Shock and horror, right...? *rolls eyes*

And now you, Levi - I really appreciate the fact that you're probably the only foreigner that defends Poland and especially Polish women on PF... but are you unable to use Google too? All I needed to do was to type in "rapes in Sweden" and here we go:

bbc.com/news/magazine-19592372

You have all the answers there.

Do we have any figures to say these people are committing the 'extra' rapes.

gatestoneinstitute.org/5195/sweden-rape

Gatestone Institute is apparently conservative and with an anti-Muslim sentiment so I don't know how credible it is, but it cites data from some official reports:

Since 2000, there has only been one research report on immigrant crime. It was done in 2006 by Ann-Christine Hjelm from Karlstads University.
It emerged that in 2002, 85% of those sentenced to at least two years in prison for rape in Svea Hovrätt, a court of appeals, were foreign born....

Now, I know that Levi's obsession with Muslims is irritating but let's not go crazy with the opposite attitude, OK...
Don't forget that immigrants come from different cultures where attitudes towards women may differ from those in Europe. The way European women dress and behave is often seen in more traditional or Muslim countries as indecent, "sluttish". In such countries European woman can be approached out of the blue and offered money for sex by a complete stranger because "surely all Western women are wh0res". I remember reading fragments of a travel book of a blond Polish female traveler about India - she was being constantly touched by men passing in the street. Apparently they thought it's somehow "OK" to do that.

Men from those cultures may bring those attitudes to countries like Sweden. This is pretty logical, I think.
They may be "overwhelmed", let's say, by the contrast of how women dress and behave in their home countries and in European countries. They may think that women in Europe are all "sluts" and they all "want it" or whatever their logic may be... I think men in those societies haven't been taught to control themselves and take responsibility for their actions to an extent that, for example, European men were, since in their home countries the burden is put on the woman to dress and behave in such a way as not to "tempt" a man.

You remember what was going on in Egypt?:
edition.cnn.com/2013/07/03/opinion/burleigh-rapes-tahrir-square/

And they may come from some conflict-ridden countries where rape is a fairly "common thing" and there's some amount of depravation, desensitization.

I think such factors should be taken into account. Or at least that's my take on it - my assumptions, my guesswork :). Of course, probably some more thorough look into more recent statistics would be a good idea, before jumping to conclusions.

Why a Swedish woman would be much more inclined to report rape than a Norwegian woman, both with the same cultural background?

I must say that it made me curious too...

I will also say I'm not dissing Poland in any way whatsoever, I've lived here for a decent while now and I feel far safer here than I did while living in Ireland, particularly when it comes to walking at night.

So, why do you feel "far safer" in Poland than in Ireland, smurf? I must say that I've come across such opinions of foreigners here on PF quite often and I've always wondered - what is that all about?
bullfrog 6 | 603
31 Mar 2015 #25
Very good post, Paulina!
smurf 39 | 1,981
31 Mar 2015 #26
Shock and horror,

I just said 'traditionally catholic'
So countries, like Ireland, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal for example.

I don't see why you must attack always, I don't know why that's your default position on this forum. Yes, I'm presuming, so what. If you have figures on this then fine I'll accept them. I don't see why you must always resort to being so aggressive towards foreigners on this forum.

If I recall it is very different compared to many other countries.

Exactly, as I posted above.

I must say that it made me curious too...

Why don't you google it Paulina? Again, you are pretty harsh on people who don't research, but then you don't bother your arse to do it yourself. Why is that?

But, hey, let me do it for you:

According to the FRA study there's a strong correlation between higher levels of gender equality and disclosure of sexual violence.[246] This, and a greater willingness among Swedish women to report rape in relationships,[247] may also explain the relatively high rates of reported rape in Sweden, which has a long-standing tradition of gender equality policy and legislation, as well as an established women's movement,[233] and has been ranked as the number one country in sex equality.[234][248]

/wiki/Rape_statistics#Sweden

Swedish people are far more inclined to go to the police if they have a problem. That's not the case in many countries, including Poland. And we all know why the police aren't respected in Poland. But things are getting better and are vastly improved from the bad old 1980s. Sure, in Ireland some people used to get in touch with the IRA or INLA if a family member was raped, rather than go through the courts, they would get the IRA to kneecap the alleged rapists. Bad times and it's still happening, it's very rare, but The Ra are still active in many parts of Northern Ireland.

why do you feel "far safer" in Poland than in Ireland

Less knife crime, less drunks on the streets at closing time causing mayhem. Poland's closing times of pubs is a far better system than that in Ireland where everything must be closed by 2.30am and you cannot buy a drink in a shop after 10.30pm. A really stupid system run by idiots.

I feel safer on Irish roads though, that's without question.

You're far more likely to be mugged on a street in Dublin than in Warsaw, Ireland has a huge drug addiction problem and junkies stealing stuff to sell or pickpocketing to raise money to buy drugs, it's a massive problem.

Ireland's murder rate is quite high for its population too, however, if we take drug-related murders out of it it's pretty low. The Police and the government seem quite happy to let the drug dealers and their associated blow the sh!te out of each other so long as innocents are involved, then they tend to come down very heavy.
Ziemowit 13 | 4,219
31 Mar 2015 #27
I don't see why you must always resort to being so aggressive towards foreigners on this forum.

It's quite the opposite. It is foreigners who are far more aggressive towards Poles or people od Polish origin.

Now you are trying to play a fool with Paulina by deciding to exclude Poland from the "traditionally catholic countries" which is total rubbish. Smurf, I remember you describing once the town of Gdansk as "an insignificant city in an insignificant country". So you have now your own share of contempt for "an insignificant country" thrown back at your face by Paulina: yes, your backward country of Ireland only managed to introduce law against maritial rape in 1990 while Poland had done it as early as in 1932!
Harry
31 Mar 2015 #28
Poland, a very "traditionally Catholic" country, was one of the first countries in the world to criminalize marital rape

And on what basis is it criminalised? Do we find the crime in the Chapter of the Penal Code dealing with Offences Against Life and Health? No. Instead it's to be found in the Chapter XXV of the Penal Code dealing with Offences against Sexual Liberty and Decency. That's right folks, rape in Poland isn't a threat to women's life, health or freedom, it's a violation of decency.

Smurf, I remember you describing once the town of Gdansk as "an insignificant city in an insignificant country".

What a very interesting assertion: ?phrase=an+insignificant+city+in+an+insignificant+country
OP Levi_BR 6 | 219
31 Mar 2015 #29
Poland, a very "traditionally Catholic" country, was one of the first countries in the world to criminalize marital rape, actually:

Very good point to remember that, Paulina. Sometimes people talk with a total unjustified tone about a traditional catholic country like Poland, and forget that this same country was years ahead of all the "Progressive West Europe" in terms of human basic rights.

I remember reading fragments of a travel book of a blond Polish female traveler about India

Not just in India. Here in Arabia my polish friends ask to go with them to the supermarket so they avoid to be harrassad. Reason? They are not using Niqab.

Swedish people are far more inclined to go to the police if they have a problem.

Again: What makes you think that Swedish people are more inclined to go to the Police than Norwegians, that have almost the same cultural background?

That proves that this "Sweden just have more rape because woman there report it more oftens" doesn't have ground in reality.
TheOther 6 | 3,821
1 Apr 2015 #30
forget that this same country was years ahead of all the "Progressive West Europe" in terms of human basic rights.

What does that have to do with the present? During medieval times, the Muslim world was the leader in science for example, and look at them now.


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