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Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership.


Harry
9 Sep 2015 #61
I couldn't get through to the Moslem HQ in Białystok (voice mail), but I'm sure it works the same way.

So,yet again you are entirely wrong: a muslim religious wedding has zero legal effect in Poland.

Now, please go into detail as to why the agreements you claim exist between the Polish state and the religions of people who choose to worship in, for example, a temple or a mosque should have any impact at all on reprivatisation in Poland. Why are you again claiming that non-existent things have any impact on anything?
G (undercover)
9 Sep 2015 #62
"Pray tell, Undercover, how would you, the Perfect, have most likely acted under identical circumstances, eh?"

Come on, I've just pointed out that Jews were taking part in many atrocities...
Harry
9 Sep 2015 #63
Thanks for all that. One would wonder how it is related to the topic of this thread, but wondering that might be off-topic itself.

Now, please go into detail as to why the agreements you claim exist between the Polish state and the religions of people who choose to worship in, for example, a temple or a mosque should have any impact at all on reprivatisation in Poland. Why are you again claiming that non-existent things have any impact on anything?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
9 Sep 2015 #64
impact at all on reprivatisation

I was wondering myself why on earth you have introduced the marriage thing to a reprivatisaiton thread, so I was merely trying to set you straight. As usual, you went off half-cocked spewing anti-Catholic rhetoric every chance you get. It was you who introduced the marriage thing into a thread on reprivatisation, and now you're accusing others of doing so and asking what this has to do with reprivatisation. Typical Harryesque MO! At this point you should throw in your typical Harryesquel spanner: Rabbi Schudrich's office is an unreliable source.

But you'd better not, otherwise he may excommunicate you.
Re Muslims, check with their HQ in Białystok. I've done enough of your legwork already.

Romans, being blamed for the death of Christ.

That's like sending the paid triggerman to the electric chair and letting the mafia boss wou hired him off scot-free.
Lyzko 25 | 7,384
9 Sep 2015 #65
Leave out the triggerman; just send in the Romani aka the Mob to do the jobLOL
Vox - | 175
10 Sep 2015 #66
@Lyzko
Lots of drama and not much of substance let alone facts.
How come you have no qualms blaming Poles for "taking part in murdering Jews" and then you turn all defensive when the shoe is on the other foot? Your statement is naught but an ambiguous generalization such as Jews "were taking part in murdering Poles". We can do tit for tat all day long or we can talk about facts.

Even you should be able to understand it.
Let it sink in!
Lyzko 25 | 7,384
10 Sep 2015 #67
The "facts" in this case, are simple and beyond dispute (unless your name happens to be Irving and answer to DavidLOL). The Jews had been living throughout much of Central and Eastern Europe for more than one-thousand years, in various states of turmoil, usually instigated by the Church:-)

For the record; the Jews no more "murdered" Christ than I murdered my uncle. The former task fell to the Romans. As far as Jews living during Occupied Europe aroudn the time of WWII, even the kapos would have surely been the victims of mass murder had they not cooperated. None did so voluntarily and it doubtless killed them a hundred times inside to have to stoop so low as to aid and abet the enemy.

Now YOU let it all "sink in"....if it can!!

No answer, Voxie ol' boy? Yeah, well the truth tends to leave us all speechless.Can't honestly say as I blame ya!
G (undercover)
11 Sep 2015 #68
"The "facts" in this case, are simple and beyond dispute (unless your name happens to be Irving and answer to DavidLOL). The Jews had been living throughout much of Central and Eastern Europe for more than one-thousand years, in various states of turmoil, usually instigated by the Church:-)"

Yes, in between running the Ottoman's slave trade and creating the only developed country that occupy foreign land and segregate people according to religion and ethnicity :)))))))))))

Let's leave aside involvement in the red terror.
jon357 63 | 14,255
11 Sep 2015 #69
Aside, Grzegorz, from the fact that your 'ideas' are as usual out of context and misleading, why do you think that the 'issues' raised in the statement you made have any impact on restitution of property in Poland?
G (undercover)
11 Sep 2015 #70
Go back the thread and you will see that I didn't start it.
jon357 63 | 14,255
11 Sep 2015 #71
That's neither here nor there, and if in fact you had started it, you would doubtless be puzzled at why there is nutty stuff like:

ews were taking part in many atrocities

Ottoman's slave trade

the red terror

As if it had the slightest relevance to restitution of stolen real estate.
Vox - | 175
11 Sep 2015 #72
No answer, Voxie ol' boy? Yeah, well the truth tends to leave us all speechless. Can't honestly say as I blame ya!

Speechless? Hardly, however I don't hover over this forum all the time like you do. A bird of prey perhaps?

The "facts" in this case, are simple and beyond dispute

Well, maybe "facts" are beyond dispute but I'm talking about facts!

The Jews had been living throughout much of Central and Eastern Europe for more than one-thousand years

One again you are dealing in generalizations. Jews in any significant numbers were living in Poland or her former territories(not some Central/Eastern Europe) for about 600 years.

@Lyzko

in various states of turmoil, usually instigated by the Church:-)

Mainly they were living in peace if times were peaceful, otherwise contemporaries wouldn't have called Poland a Jewish paradise.
Also they had time and means to develop their philosophical/religious schools, customs and art as well as multiplying to such an extend that today there is a hardly a Jew that wouldn't be able to trace at least one of his ancestor back to Poland, or a region that used to be Poland.

Facts don't give much of a credence to your picture of downtrodden and hard done by community.

For the record; the Jews no more "murdered" Christ than I murdered my uncle.

Who cares about that? It is mostly religious stuff that has little to do with reality or politics. Honestly I think that Jews are over-the-top and paranoid about that one as are those not Jews who are pointing out Talmudic quotes about gentiles:

1." A Jew should and must make a false oath when the Goyim asks if our books contain anything against them. "
2."That the Jewish nation is the only nation selected by God, while all the remaining ones are contemptible and hateful."
3." That all property of other nations belongs to the Jewish nation, which consequently is entitled to seize upon it without any scruples. An orthodox Jew is not bound to observe principles of morality towards people of other tribes. He may act contrary to morality, if profitable to himself or to Jews in general"Zohar, Vayshlah 177b.

In the light of those quotes making a big issue of some obscure references about Jews set in a time of Christ are just as out of order as teaching children in an orthodox Jewish kindergarten that all non-Jews are evil as it happened recently.

independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/threeyearold-ultraorthodox-jewish-children-told-the-nonjews-are-evil-in-worksheet-produced-by-school-10481682.html

@Lyzko

As far as Jews living during Occupied Europe aroudn the time of WWII, even the kapos would have surely been the victims of mass murder had they not cooperated. None did so voluntarily

Why are you conveniently focusing on kapos? Lets talk about Jews in ghettos or those in hiding?
Are you able to provide evidence that refusal to join Jewish police in ghettos resulted in execution?
Lyzko 25 | 7,384
11 Sep 2015 #73
Vox, the roots of European (as opposed, say, to Muslim) anti-semitism date back to the erroneous notion that the Jews murdered Christ, period!

Blaming the Jews for the pogroms, anti-Jewish feeling among the gentile population etc. is rather much like blaming the victim for the attackers' assault. While it may well be true that Jewish pawnbrokers DID act usurously in exacting a higher interest than others, don't forget, the Catholic Church forbade the Jews from any other work other than moneylending. If the Jews were then perceived as the Frankenstein Monster, it has, among others, chiefly the Papacy to blame!!

Jews didn't set out to cheat or defraud. They were solely concerned with survival, pure and simple. While Jews were scarcely "perfect", neither where the Christians....BY A LONG SHOT:-)
Harry
11 Sep 2015 #74
That's neither here nor there, and if in fact you had started it, you would doubtless be puzzled at why there is nutty stuff like:

It doesn't have the slightest relevance at all. However, it is used by those who now benefit from certain thefts to try to justify them not being made to make good the losses suffered by the victims of the theft; both those who benefit indirectly by being from the nation which has taken certain property from the rightful owners and those who have benefited directly, by buying from the state at knock-down prices property that was taken from the rightful owners.
Lyzko 25 | 7,384
11 Sep 2015 #75
Jewish properties, owned by citizens of Polish nationality, ought clearly to be returned, at least partially, to their rightful owner(s) and/or their families. As such primogeniture is expecially difficult to prove in the case of Jewish Poles, for instance, this merely draws out the entire process.

Rest assured however, justice will be served.....eventually:-)
Vox - | 175
11 Sep 2015 #76
Vox, the roots of European (as opposed, say, to Muslim) anti-semitism date back to the erroneous notion that the Jews murdered Christ, period!

You lost me here Lyzko, what are you getting at? Tell me in which part of the world Jewish communities survived in better shape, Islamic or Christian? Facts Lyzko facts.

Jewish properties, owned by citizens of Polish nationality, ought clearly to be returned

I'm not an expert on the issue Lyzko but I have looked into it. This issue is much more complex and not so clearly cut and dried than you believe it to be. Facts Lyzko.

Here:
"Both the Nazis and the Communists confiscated the property of Polish citizens en masse. It is often forgotten that-while targeting the Jews in particular-the Germans also deprived many Polish Christians of their possessions. Many of the despoiled Jewish and Christian owners, including entire families, were exterminated during the war. Large amounts of property were either destroyed or shipped off to Germany or (later) the USSR, negating the spurious claim that Poles somehow profited from the war and the Holocaust.

Once the Soviets pushed out the Germans in 1944-1945, the communist puppet regime (forced upon Poland by the Kremlin) simply took over the vast network of properties previously stolen by the other totalitarian occupiers. After the war, in a public relations ploy, the communists allowed some Polish Jews to reclaim their properties. Many Jews, however, wished to settle in Palestine, or simply to escape communism, rightly suspecting that the Bolsheviks would eventually re-confiscate their property. Thus, they generally sold their properties-real estate in particular-and voted with their feet for freedom."

propertyrightsintransition.com/property-restitution-in-poland
Here:

"Miroslaw Szypowski, head of the Polish Union of Property Owners, an umbrella group for claimants, says there are roughly 300,000 people with potential claims against the government, totaling 85bn zlotys ($29bn)"

ft.com/cms/s/2/be98d9aa-360d-11df-aa43-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3lSUwg5bU
jon357 63 | 14,255
11 Sep 2015 #77
to be returned, at least partially, to their rightful owner(s)

Yes. regardless of citizenship or any other matter; if a property was illegaly seized by the occupiers and there is documented ownership at the time of seizure, it should be returned without undue hesitation.
Lyzko 25 | 7,384
12 Sep 2015 #78
@Vox,

Read the rest of jon's posts! The facts are in the history itself:-)

@jon,

The burden of proof however, rests almost exlusively on the presence of any supporting, still extant, documentation (if there was any), along with that of the heirs to such property/estate etc.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
12 Sep 2015 #79
What's the bill now ? Still $65 billion or is it growing ?
Lyzko 25 | 7,384
12 Sep 2015 #80
You forgot, with interest:-)
lol
Lyzko 25 | 7,384
12 Sep 2015 #82
And I'm answering seriously! With interest added on, the "bill" as you call it, would be considerably higher.

Look, it's almost the same thing as here in Times Square, where for umpteen years, a billboard has proudly proclaimed our National Debt as well into the trillions:-)

The sooner restitution can be adequately made (and survivors families, both Jewish and gentile, have ceased haggling over a fair redress), the sooner the discussion of paying off the Holocaust can be finally put to rest, we hope.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
12 Sep 2015 #83
the sooner the discussion of paying off the Holocaust can be finally put to rest

How should we pay if off ?
Lyzko 25 | 7,384
12 Sep 2015 #84
Who's "we"? It's a team effort, you know! Poland, Austria, Germany, even little Switzerland, each bear at least part of the brunt.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
12 Sep 2015 #85
So what's Polands share and how should we pay off the Holocaust ?
Lyzko 25 | 7,384
12 Sep 2015 #86
Not being privy unfortunately to the "Jewish Claims Conference" minutes, I honestly couldn't say. A conservative estimate would be at least in the millions, perhaps even one million in dollar amount probably for each of the recorded six-million or so Jewish slaughtered. Before you have heart failure though, this would likely be divvyed up between each of the three countries I mentioned:-) Poland would scarcely be expected to go it alone, now would they?
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
12 Sep 2015 #87
So it's 6 trillion USD in total ? What about Poland's share ? More or less.
Lyzko 25 | 7,384
12 Sep 2015 #88
Don't see where you come up with that figure, Grzegorz! It'd be probably not in excess of eleven million there abouts, when all the smoke has cleared. And that might again NOT be Poland's sole share.
jon357 63 | 14,255
12 Sep 2015 #89
The burden of proof however, rests almost exlusively on the presence of any supporting, still extant, documentation (if there was any), along with that of the heirs to such property/estate etc.

Absolutely. As well as the way it came into state ownership. Property taken during the occupation was originally illegally seized.
Lyzko 25 | 7,384
12 Sep 2015 #90
Exactly. That's the basic idea. This refers exclusively to property or goods seized "illegally". In the case of Holocaust-related restitution claims, the problem becomes compounded by the not-so-simple fact that Jews in particular had no legal rights under the Occupation, but where solely "subjects" of the Third Reich.

This point was in particular brought out several times at the Nuremberg Trials, during which it was variously stated that the accused in the docks were indeed NOT breaking the law, but rather carrying out the law which they as German subjects under the leader Adolf Hitler, were duty-sworn to uphold!

:-)


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