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Multi-culti (in Poland) -- roadmap to disaster?


Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
12 Jul 2011  #1
Up until recently it was regarded as 'politically incorrect' to question multi-culturalism, diversity, immigration, etc. Tante Angela broke the precedent when she ciritcised the abuses of 'multi-kulti'.

Although it has a steadily growing coomuntiy of Vietnamese and other foreigners, Poland is still not a major attraction for economic immigrants or even refugees. Those who do come mainly see it as a gateway to affluent, united Germany and other points west.

America is a land of immigrant -- even the Amerindians were transplanted Mongolians who crossed the frozen-over Bering Straits from Siberia. But immigration has always caused various problems, and the terrorist issue has added a new dimension to the question. That prompts me to wonder:

Is there some target quota of foreign-born in a given country that should more or less be adhered to in order to avoid major problems?

Can immirgants be allowed to form insular communities (ghettos) without learning the host country's language and ways?
Should they be given the same rights and privileges (social benefits, education, healthcare, etc.) as taxpayers who are bankrolling the system?
Is it intolerant, inhumane or otherwise reprehensible to deport illegal aliens?
Poland is still at a stage when the necessary legal, social and infrastructural framework can be rationally planned in anticipation of possible increased future immigration.
pip 10 | 1,661
12 Jul 2011  #2
This is such a heated issue. But a question needs to be asked. Do Poles that immigrate form their own communities (ghetto's), do they learn the language- and everything else you mentioned?

Yes- they have Polish ghetto's, they set up their own communities and maintain the culture and language of the mother land.

My husband was a Polish immigrant to Canada- his parents still live there. They speak English, contribute to society yet maintain their Polish culture and identity and have all Polish friends.

My daughters best friend is Vietnamese born in Poland. Is she Polish? Well the citizens here would say no- she has obvious physical features that don't allow her to truly assimilate. She was born here, speaks perfect Polish- she is not Polish.

Vietnamese, generally speaking, come to Poland to work. They don't come here to milk the system- they are extremely hard workers and have a dedication to family.

In my opinion, multiculturalism in Europe doesn't fly. In North America it works because everybody has come from somewhere else. In Germany, for example, the Turkish people have come and set up ghettos. They have a different work ethic than Germans and are resented for it. Not to mention the obvious physical differences. However, eastern Europeans that immigrate to Germany tend to do better because they learn the language and they are white. My husbands cousin lives in Berlin- her family has never had a problem but they have truly assimilated - they do keep the Polish language and culture at home, however.

My opinion - immigrants that come to Poland should learn the language- do they have to give up their native culture- I don't believe so. The Polish general population would never accept that a Vietnamese girl born is Poland is a true Pole because of obvious physical differences- this I have seen for myself.

As for ghetto's being set up- it is human nature to want to be next to those that are similar to yourself- it happens all over the world and from culture to culture, I don't think this can be changed.
1jola 14 | 1,879
12 Jul 2011  #3
When a Pole wants multiculturalism, a Pole travels.
pip 10 | 1,661
12 Jul 2011  #4
yes but this is not realistic. Why is it acceptable for Poles to immigrate- but nobody can immigrate to Poland?

I wouldn't say sitting on a beach in Egypt, Greece or Turkey with other Poles is multicultural.
1jola 14 | 1,879
12 Jul 2011  #5
but nobody can immigrate to Poland?

I know plenty of immigrants in Poland. Perhaps they are less likely to settle in your village so you think there none.
Malopolanin 3 | 134
12 Jul 2011  #6
If you want to have a successful multicultural society, you have to kill the natives, or plunge them into reservations.

That's the way it works in USA.
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649
12 Jul 2011  #7
Believe it or not, there's ethnically whole communities in America. The first one that comes to mind are Latinos. They take over entire sections of cities kind of like Italians used to. Asians tend to spread out among caucasians more.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
12 Jul 2011  #8
Asians tend to spread out among caucasians more.

Where I live, in Southern California, Asian families are to be found in every neighbhorhood, but there are also Asian enclaves too. Chinese congregate in the city of Irvine. Iranians in the city of Laguna Hills. Anaheim has what is known as "Little Baghdad" where many Arabs live. Long Beach has an Indonesian section as well as a Cambodian section. Torrance has many Japanese and there is a Koreatown in LA proper, as well as vast Armenian neighborhoods. The cities of Westminster and Garden Grove share the largest and most distinct Asian neighborhood known as "Little Saigon" in which over 150,000 Vietnamese live together, signage is in Vietnamese, there are thousands of Vietnamese coffeshops, and some of the bus stops even have pagoda style roofs over their benches. I am sure I have missed some other Asian enclaves as well. Regarding the thread's topic in relation to Poland: Wouldn't it be fair to say that the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was a multi-cultural society, and that it thrived as one, and so in Poland's case we have already seen that multi-culturalism is not a "roadmap to disaster"?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
12 Jul 2011  #9
Restore the borders of the Pol-Lithuanian Commonwealth at its height under Warsaw's rule, and I'm sure Poles will agree to grant minorities far-reaching autonomy. That is far less likely in today's truncated mini-Polabd.
Ashleys mind 3 | 456
12 Jul 2011  #10
Up until recently it was regarded as 'politically incorrect' to question multi-culturalism

Big difference between ethnically diverse and multi-cultural...

If people have the same or similar values I would say that any extent of ethnic diversity can work... but where people do not share or have polarizing views on issues intrinsic to an open and shared society such as social wellbeing, human development, methods of progress, egalitarianism, access to education, tolerance of hatred and violence, abuses against minorities, women, animals, abuses against freedoms, fundamental ways to achieve health, happiness and livelihoods... then minority groups may be formed through immigration... Understandable really.

Don't get me wrong, any amount of ethnicity can bring good things to a country, not every modern society knows anymore how to care for its sick and elderly and can be a little dismissive of other family commitments, as well as to the care and time given to other aspects of life such as faith and healing...

But if the presence of foreign inhabitants causes great consternation or actually *generates* violence for those involved, then I would say there *is* a problem and something has to be done to bridge the gap... or people will just learn themselves how to deal with it. :)

But there are always good things learned from polarization too... we didn't come this far as a reasonably tolerant and open minded species without being able to adapt to *some* change... And where these changes present challenges, reflects the society into which those changes are being introduced more than anything else... ;)

In any case, they are mostly just teething problems and will continue to challenge and change societies worldwide whether we like it or not.

Basically what i'm saying is that people don't immigrate between ethnicities.. they immigrate between societies, and those societies are formed from shared beliefs and commonly held values... :)
PennBoy 76 | 2,437
12 Jul 2011  #11
Multi-culti -- roadmap to disaster?

Although it has a steadily growing coomuntiy of Vietnamese and other foreigners, Poland is still not a major attraction for economic immigrants or even refugees.

Although there are 30-40K Vietnamese, 50K Ukrainians and smaller numbers of others Warsaw is still far from being multicultural. Come to NY you'll see multiculturalism.

My daughters best friend is Vietnamese born in Poland. Is she Polish? Well the citizens here would say no- she has obvious physical features that don't allow her to truly assimilate. She was born here, speaks perfect Polish- she is not Polish.

Technically but not really.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
12 Jul 2011  #12
Restore the borders of the Pol-Lithuanian Commonwealth at its height under Warsaw's rule, and I'm sure Poles will agree to grant minorities far-reaching autonomy. That is far less likely in today's truncated mini-Polabd.

Why do you think Poland is too small today to be multi-cultural? What do you mean by "far reaching autonomy"? Doesn't Poland already grant this to the Vietnamese, and other ethnic minorities, living there?
Bzibzioh
12 Jul 2011  #13
Yes- they have Polish ghetto's, they set up their own communities and maintain the culture and language of the mother land.

No, we don't. One thing I know for sure is that Poles, at least those living in Canada, don't *do* ghettos. They don't live in one area of the city. That's best visible during elections; I like to observe how ethnic minorities voted and Poles are never visible. Just because we tend to live all over the city or town but not in one specific area.

However we form Polish community centers and maintain the culture. But I don't see it as a hindrance to the good life in economic and social terms.

Big difference between ethnically diverse and multi-cultural...

Nah, it isn't. Anyway its the utopian socialist dream who should die its well-deserved death. I strongly believe that when in Rome, do as the Romans do.
pip 10 | 1,661
12 Jul 2011  #14
I am also from Canada. Ottawa exactly. In Toronto there absolutely is a Polish ghetto. I would agree with you in other places not having them. In Ottawa there are a few "mini ghettos" a few families living in the same neighbourhood- but nothing like Greenpoint or Chicago.
Ashleys mind 3 | 456
12 Jul 2011  #15
Nah, it isn't. Anyway its the utopian socialist dream who should die its well-deserved death.

Well you should know that it is an ideal upheld by your very own adopted country...
Or did you forget that you moved to a nation full of immigrants who enjoy the same status as every other Canadian citizen...? Hardly a ''utopian socialist dream'' is it Bzi? (snot face)

I strongly believe that when in Rome, do as the Romans do.

What, enjoy universal health care, the great outdoors and drive around in big cars to the shopping mall...?
I wouldn't imagine Canada's exactly *impinging* on your deeply held cultural sensitivities is it now Bzi? ;)
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
12 Jul 2011  #16
What do you mean by "far reaching autonomy"? Doesn't Poland already grant this to the Vietnamese, and other ethnic minorities, living there?

No. Poland is strongly centralised, with nothing in the way of autonomy.

Restore the borders of the Pol-Lithuanian Commonwealth at its height under Warsaw's rule, and I'm sure Poles will agree to grant minorities far-reaching autonomy. That is far less likely in today's truncated mini-Polabd.

History suggests otherwise - autonomy was revoked or never granted despite being agreed on.

History was certainly part of the motivation to make Poland a mono-ethnic state, given the II RP's intolerance for other minorities.
Ironside 48 | 9,708
12 Jul 2011  #17
Or did you forget that you moved to a nation full of immigrants who enjoy the same status as every other Canadian citize

What are you talking about ? All citizens of Poland have the same status as every other citizen, that goes for every state I suppose ....

In Toronto there absolutely is a Polish ghetto.

like in - a community?
Marynka11 4 | 675
12 Jul 2011  #18
One thing I know for sure is that Poles, at least those living in Canada, don't *do* ghettos.

Around here Polish ghettos are called Polakowos. They usually have sklep and Polish church. Housing is usually cheap and owned by Poles (who live outside of Polakowo) and affordable for low wage workers. Once the workers make enough in their judgement, they either move elsewhere, like regular suburb or go back to Poland. Polish ghetto is rather a station in the way rather than a status quo for a person.
ShawnH 8 | 1,498
12 Jul 2011  #19
at least those living in Canada, don't *do* ghettos

In Toronto there absolutely is a Polish ghetto

Define ghetto, exactly?
Ironside 48 | 9,708
12 Jul 2011  #20
given the II RP's intolerance for other minorities.

lie - given that fact that the II RP did not tolerate minorities being disloyal to Polish state, some indulging into terrorist activities.

Why do you think Poland is too small today to be multi-cultural?

Because Poland's territory was cut down in size to create mono-cultural ethnic Poles area- reservation. But is not good enough for scum and they claim now that even so small Poland is being divided even further !
Ashleys mind 3 | 456
12 Jul 2011  #21
What are you talking about ? All citizens of Poland have the same status as every other citizen, that goes for every state I suppose ....

As far as I know it can be very difficult for those working in UAE to gain full citizenship with full citizenship rights... and this includes a large majority of the population...

Immigrant workers in this region are largely marginalised and have great difficulty being treated as anything other than indentured servants, with no state benefits and basically tied to their employers in the nature of captives... their rights, extremely limited.

My point was that the status of immigrants in countries like Canada is far superior and far more genuine than other more dubious but equally wealthy states... and it is not to be taken for granted.

I guess where genuine citizenship rights exist, so does effective multi-culturalism and a pleasant place to relocate.
I know which place I'd pick.
pip 10 | 1,661
12 Jul 2011  #22
Define ghetto, exactly?

sorry- this is a term my husband uses. I literally mean an area of town with a lot of Polish people, much like Greenpoint. It doesn't have anything to do with ones socio-economic status.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
12 Jul 2011  #23
If Piłsudski's federalist concept were to be implemented, that essentially would mean the restoration of the old P-L Commonwealth. Under the wise, prudent and just guidance of Mother Poland Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Silesians, Kashubs, Belarussians, Lemkos, Germans and others could be guaranteed cultural and to some extent self-governing autonomy in their respecive areas.

Unfortunately, the Soviet-installed PRL regime promtoed the Dmowskian view of a truncated, compact, ethnically homogeneous Poland after WW2.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
12 Jul 2011  #24
lie - given that fact that the II RP did not tolerate minorities being disloyal to Polish state, some indulging into terrorist activities.

The II RP did plenty of terrorist activities towards the minorities - shall we start with how Poland refused to implement Galician autonomy, despite it being a core part of the agreement with the League of Nations?

Or perhaps we could talk about how the Jewish minority was essentially banned from higher education?

Pilsudski's vision was an incredibly brave and sensible one - but alas, not a popular one. Even before WW2, his vision was clearly rejected - by the same nationalist elements that led Poland to disaster.
Llamatic - | 144
12 Jul 2011  #25
The melting pot becomes a sh*t stew.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
12 Jul 2011  #26
I-S, I don't think size is the issue here. Poland is much bigger than GB yet look how MC GB is. I don't think MC really suits the Polish model that much but I think some Poles are crying out for positive variety to release themselves from the humdrum of their daily lives.

Pol3, maybe you should fly over to Poland and deliver courses in Disaster Management? ;) ;)
Llamatic - | 144
12 Jul 2011  #27
Poles are crying out for positive variety to release themselves from the humdrum of their daily lives.

They should be very careful what they wish for.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
12 Jul 2011  #28
You've just echoed my exact words in another thread on this topic :) :)
Ironside 48 | 9,708
12 Jul 2011  #29
The II RP did plenty of terrorist activities towards the minorities - shall we start with how Poland refused to implement Galician autonomy, despite it being a core part of the agreement with the League of Nations?

It was only right. The League of Nation never did anything for Poland, why Poland should do anything for them?
Remind me what Scotland did with people who refused to pay tax, hell try reuse to pay tax now.

Or perhaps we could talk about how the Jewish minority was essentially banned from higher education?

Oh get it over, it is not even funny ....

Pilsudski's vision was an incredibly brave and sensible one - but alas, not a popular one

What do you know about his vision? - I daresay not much.
Fist of all his vision encompassed much lager Poland than IIRP. Including territories which never belonged to Poland like Georgia.

I-S, I don't think size is the issue here.

I think that the size is exactly the issue here. Poland was downsized to be separated from any large minorities and ethnicities. She had too sacrificed territories which belonged to her since before war of roses, now some retarded PC ideological types and zealots like delphindomine are saying that is not good - well give us border from before 1772 and I personally will kiss ass of any minority types which would come along.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
12 Jul 2011  #30
I-S, Poles have been allowed to move around freely since their accession to the EU so why not grant others the courtesy of taking up spots in Poland? Your answer was no more than code for 'Polska dla Polaków'.


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