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Jaruzelski dead / his legacy in Poland


Lenka 3 | 2,558
27 May 2014 #61
The decission has been made- Jaruzelski will be buried on Powązki
Harry
27 May 2014 #62
Good: that's the right place for him to be buried.
Lenka 3 | 2,558
27 May 2014 #63
I agree. At least this time noone had the moronic idea to open up Wawel
Yesterday I saw Wałesa saying that even though he and Jaruzelski differed he can't imagine the president of RP buried anywhere else.
goofy_the_dog
27 May 2014 #64
Bury him either on Zwirki i Wigory next to his Masters, or in Kremlin.
It is simply put outragegous... what about the families of his victims?
I'd rather put the Wujek victims in there, or the AK veterans which killed while on WSI duty than that.. red ..."general"!
Lenka 3 | 2,558
27 May 2014 #65
Well, the ex-soldiers and political prisoners organisation doesn't agree with you Goofy. And don't forget that whether you like it or not he was the President.
goofy_the_dog
27 May 2014 #66
he was a president of the rigged elections.. ;) not really democratic now was it? ;)
Who agreed with that.. oww the officila, fudned by PO organisation with that Bartoszewski guy on top... :) please I'd rather listen to a comedian than them. Every normal Pole is offended by a mere opinion of Jaruzelski being a .. a man of Honour.. or a Patriot (certainly not ofthe Polish Free State)
Harry
27 May 2014 #67
Well, the ex-soldiers and political prisoners organisation doesn't agree with you Goofy. And don't forget that whether you like it or not he was the President.

I'd like to hope that the funeral will be a respectful affair, but the reality is that some people on the right in Poland are so uncultured that they even boo and heckle at events doing things such as commemorating those who died in the Warsaw Uprising, so there is very little chance that they'll show the respect due to the General.
goofy_the_dog
27 May 2014 #68
Wojtek can be respectfully buried somewhere else.. not in the alley of the Zasluzonych.. it is a 100% sure that his grave will destroyed in a day or two :)

Instead.. of the SLD making a public stunt out ofit to the happiness of Newsweek and other propaganda f the regime, how about to respectfully and honestly say that he was not a patriot of Poland, instead he was our little Czauczesko.. a small time petty WSI agent who advanced in ranks.. a guy that killed innocent people fathers and sons of Poland and Ukraine and Czechoslovakia.

I hope that he is laid torest somehere else.. it will only cause a scandal sooner or later.
Lenka 3 | 2,558
27 May 2014 #69
Wojtek can be respectfully buried somewhere else.. not in the alley of the Zasluzonych.. it is a 100% sure that his grave will destroyed in a day or two :)

That will only show the class, culture and upbringing of the ppl that will do it. Nothing more.
RubasznyRumcajs 5 | 493
27 May 2014 #70
nice video about him.
about the place of funeral: he should be packed in beautiful coffin and buried- in the most official ceremony- in Russia, the country that he loved and served so much.
Lenka 3 | 2,558
27 May 2014 #71
I know they will be given medals for it.. it will be like the old actions of the underground in the II World War against germans. :)Destroying a tablica with German words on it.. or drawing a symbol of Polska Walczaca.. those times are coming back.

Medals given by ppl like you? Sorry but it rather won't be too valuable.
It's funny to think that pseudopatriots with enough dignity to be a worm will in fact attack the grave, get caught and put in jail or pay a fine to some charity :)

Whatever one may think about Jaruzelski desecrating a grave is a disgracefull thing to do. No true hero would do that- to be a hero you need some integrity.
goofy_the_dog
27 May 2014 #72
This is why i do not want his body on Powazki.. It will lead only to certain acts... If we put him where he belongs on Zwirki i Wigory then nothing will be done to him.

But since the SLD and his family want publicity they will get what they want.
Lenka 3 | 2,558
27 May 2014 #73
No, they want him in a place where Polish presidents and soldiers/veterans are buried.
And noone forces idiots to disecrate his grave.
goofy_the_dog
27 May 2014 #74
Idiots anther nupties believe that he was a hero of anything.
He was a red butcher and should be laid to rest with other red butchers from rakowiecka
sobieski 107 | 2,128
27 May 2014 #75
He was a red butcher

Since when do you represent all Polish veterans? If you would have stayed in Poland...but you ran off to the UK - whereas you could have contributed to this country big time...not with idiocies on the internet but with taxes, work, social contributions...

Speaking about butchers....your cherished NSZ and their brigada świętokrzyżka....where do you rate them? For them it was always much more interesting to murder Jews as to resist the Nazis.
Lenka 3 | 2,558
27 May 2014 #76
I don't believe he was a hero but I also judge him by the situation. Ukraine now is perfect example what might have happened, my family member saw army on Polish border...

So no, he was not a hero but maybe he saved Poland for me to live in and I respect that.
Btw- I would be against violating even the grave of Hitler since it's just not something normal ppl do.
goofy_the_dog
27 May 2014 #77
If he wasnt a hero as you said, killed Poles, was an antisemite in the 60s (Jewish expulsion)than why should he be laid to rest with the Heroes?
Lenka 3 | 2,558
27 May 2014 #78
There's a difference between being a hero and being a scumbag. There is a lot of space between those two. And if Wawel is good enough for Kaczyński then Powązki are definately good enough for Jaruzelski.

Today my mom talked to her school friend on the phone. The lady had a student that was in the army when martial law was introduced. He told her that every few hours new Russian soldiers were delivered to their unit to the point where Poles had to move to give space. He said he was thankful to Jaruzelski because if it wasn't for him and martial law town steets would be drowned with blood.
goofy_the_dog
27 May 2014 #79
A way of justification probably i trust experts and historians from the IPN, not my mums friends.
Lenka 3 | 2,558
27 May 2014 #80
I never trusted and never will trust IPN. Simple. I prefer ppl that I know are not liers and just say what they saw. I guess my family member also didn't see the army on the border...
goofy_the_dog
27 May 2014 #81
Hahaha well this where we differ then i believe a written document, whereas you believe to some guys tales...
Too bad ..

Apart from that the next part of comrade wojteks biography/legacy is in the making!
pam
27 May 2014 #82
i believe a written document,

Do you take everything you read to be gospel Goofy?
Things are rarely that clear cut and even Historians can make mistakes and disagree with versions of events.
I certainly wouldn't believe everything I read.
I don't know enough about Jaruzelski to make much comment, but judging from the threads it appears he was both revered and reviled in equal doses.
Lenka 3 | 2,558
27 May 2014 #83
I do believe written word but not ones written by IPN. Most of the historians were proven to be at least selective in their work.
AdamKadmon 2 | 508
27 May 2014 #84
Some wise words of history and historians:

The past actually happened. History is what someone took the time to write down.

Writing history is like drinking an ocean and pis-sing a cupful.

Life is not simple, and therefore history, which is past life, is not simple.

Any fool can make history, but it takes a genius to write it.

God alone knows the future, but only a historian can alter the past.
goofy_the_dog
27 May 2014 #85
After many years in the service of the WSI, Wojtus got his new place new rank as a major... he was given many medals by the Polsih "President" - dictator Boleslaw Bierut .. a smaller yet still dangerous bandit like Stalin.

.. as I lack time for today.. I shall write the story of Wojciech Jaruzelski's viscious antisemitism tomorrow.
See you guys!
AdamKadmon 2 | 508
28 May 2014 #86
I shall write the story of Wojciech Jaruzelski's viscious antisemitism tomorrow

The New York Times

JARUZELSKI IS SAID TO BAN ANTI-SEMITIC BROADCASTS[/url]
nytimes.com/1982/01/01/world/jaruzelski-is-said-to-ban-anti-semitic-broadcasts.html
By BERNARD D. NOSSITER
Published: January 1, 1982

Anti-Semitic purge in 1968 against the the military shipyard workers in the 1970s, martial law in 1981. - What did and what did not do General Jaruzelski, who died on 25 May.

ADAM LESZCZYŃSKI: Three episodes in the life General Jaruzelski topic and many myths: his participation in an anti-Semitic purge of 1967-1968, in the massacre of the workers on the Coast in December 1970. And the decision on the introduction of martial law in December 1981. How he is responsible for this? He could act better?

goofy_the_dog
28 May 2014 #87
I shall present my sources later extracts later.
Ziemowit 13 | 4,272
28 May 2014 #88
[link to the article] "Generał Jaruzelski na ogół nie protestował"

This one is definitely worth reading (unfortunately, the article is in Polish only).

Professor Jerzy Eisler is a renown historian known for his very balanced views on the most recent history of Poland. The three points he discusses in the article are:

- Jaruzelski's alleged antisemitic actions in 1967-68;
- his taking part in the massacre of workers in 1970;
- introducing martial law in 1981.

On the latter point:
- Could the Russians have moved in?
- We are in the area of speculation here. Every one believes what they want to believe in. A more important question for me is: To whose advantage had the martial law been declared? We may look at it in this way: this was to the advantage of the Kremlin as communist order was restored in Warsaw without loosing a single drop of Russian blood and spending a single rouble on it. General Jaruzelski was much celebrated thereafter in Moscow ...
Harry
28 May 2014 #89
This one is definitely worth reading (unfortunately, the article is in Polish only).

More unfortunately, the text on Wyborcza is subscriber only. Does anybody happen to know of a site which has a version of the article which is free to all?

We may look at it in this way: this was to the advantage of the Kremlin as communist order was restored in Warsaw without loosing a single drop of Russian blood and spending a single rouble on it. General Jaruzelski was much celebrated thereafter in Moscow ...

The only reason they would celebrate that would be if they thought that without him they would have needed to spill Russian blood and spend lots of roubles, which would mean that they did plan to invade if the General hadn't acted. Not that that that is news.

There is a long (102 pages, plus 30 pages of intro and documents) but absolutely brilliant article titled "Jaruzelski, the Soviet Union, and the Imposition of Martial Law in Poland: New Light on the Mystery of December 1981" here: wilsoncenter.org/sites/default/files/CWIHPBulletin11_p1.pdf

I haven't finished it yet but so far it is superb.

A more important question for me is: To whose advantage had the martial law been declared?

Frankly it was in almost everybody's (short-term) interests; without it the death toll would probably have stretched into the tens of thousands.

I do believe written word but not ones written by IPN. Most of the historians were proven to be at least selective in their work.

That's not true. Almost all of the IPN stuff about WWII events and events shortly after the war is top notch. The problem comes with their more contemporary work (e.g. the fact that according to their files nobody in the secret police ever even wondered if Jarek Kaczynski might be gay).
AdamKadmon 2 | 508
28 May 2014 #90
unfortunately, the text on Wyborcza is subscriber only. Does anybody happen to know of a site which has a version of the article which is free to all?

Find the link in my previous post: Generał Jaruzelski na ogół nie protestował.


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