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Have You heard about legalizing 12-hour working day in Poland?


Guest
15 Sep 2013 #1
Did you know that last few weeks Poland legalized 12-hours working day? It's called "elastic work time". According to the law, also overtime is not payable. Welcome China, who has cheaper workers? ;)
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
15 Sep 2013 #2
Could you perhaps link us to the legislation in question?
milky 13 | 1,657
15 Sep 2013 #3
is this true?
p3undone 8 | 1,135
15 Sep 2013 #4
Guest,could you please provide a link?
Paulina 13 | 2,232
15 Sep 2013 #5
Extend the reference period of time up to 12 months , changing the definition of employee day , lowering rates for overtime work - these are just some of the proposed government changes to the Labour Code . - We will work for 26 weeks in a row , 12 hours a day ! - Threaten trade unionists . Meanwhile, the Ministry of Wladyslaw Kosiniak - Kamysz has a few other ideas to make life easier for businesses affected by the crisis.

The government of Poland supported by the parent party - PO - and business organizations want to enter permanently into the Labour Code flexitime . The project approved by the parliamentary committee remarkable , and this week will be on the MPs to vote . What will change ? Each employer will be able to introduce flexible working hours . For example, on Monday an employee starts work at . 8 and Tuesday at 9 .

Parliament of Poland adopted an amendment to the Labour Code , which allows the employer to work flexible hours . Under the revised rules employee can work more than eight hours , and the employer does not have to pay him overtime , provided that during the 12 -month accounting period the company " give " to the employee the additional hours shorter amount of time in other time - writes " Gazeta Wyborcza."

TheOther 6 | 3,692
15 Sep 2013 #6
Did you know that last few weeks Poland legalized 12-hours working day?

12-hours with unpaid overtime - that's crazy. Is the Polish government so desperate to create new jobs or keep existing ones that they have to reintroduce slavery?
OP Guest
15 Sep 2013 #7
delphiandomine

[sholud be http] ://orka.sejm.gov.pl/Druki7ka.nsf/0/1D507853B1A4DA52C1257B170039FF 66/%24File/1105.pdf

It is accepted to push workers to work 12-hours a day for 6 months.
Officially in next 6 months they should work 4-hours a day. But nobody in Poland heard about employer, who keep work of time, going to court is too expensive (lasts for years...) for workers and usually without effects. Worker who go to a court loses job. More, worker who go to a court is offen automaticaly accused of illegal income (if he worked without contract).

More... according to this law, employer can push employees to work in one day for example from 8 to 10, then 12-1 pm, then 2-5 pm, and 7-9 pm - and it'll be counted as 8-hours day.

More... government is preparing act about liquidation of free sundays nad saturdays - if somebody work in foreign company, which is oriented to states, which don't have similar to polish holidays. For example, if somebody work for arabic company, has no right to free sundays (and in fact fridays too...).
between3
15 Sep 2013 #8
Because something doesnt work on parliament's site:

Link to law act (pdf file), however, how could you use it?

speedy.sh/gpHKd/1105.pdf
Paulina 13 | 2,232
15 Sep 2013 #9
Yeah, I guess we all know what it will look like in Poland...

One of the comments (translated by me) from under one of the articles from the links I've given:

I can't imagine this "elastic work time", I already work my ass off for 11 hours a day, so what am I supposed to do now.

Hence the protests, I guess:

kontakt24.tvn24.pl/temat,mlodzi-piekni-bezrobotni-wielka-demonstracja-w-waszych-obiektywach,98815,html
between3
15 Sep 2013 #10
More, it is acepted by law, that worker could be fired after six months of working 12-hours a day and be hired by "new" company (just new name for old).

Paulina

It was the biggest demonstration after 1989 yr (excluding masses after death of pope).
Paulina 13 | 2,232
15 Sep 2013 #11
It was the biggest demonstration after 1989 yr (excluding masses after death of pope).

They said on TV it was 100 000 people?
Harry
15 Sep 2013 #12
They're going to legalise the 12-hour working day? Wow, I guess each of the last six days for me must have been illegal....
between3
15 Sep 2013 #13
Yes, there were about 100 thousand of people. I live in Warsaw and was there. It's very big protest in generally passive society.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
15 Sep 2013 #14
Has anything actually changed? As I understand it, all that changes is the reference time period, meaning employers can use their labour more flexibly. Yes, it means that people might have to work longer hours, but they will get those hours back at quiet times. It was a badly needed change, especially in the service industries.
Paulina 13 | 2,232
15 Sep 2013 #15
They're going to legalise the 12-hour working day? Wow, I guess each of the last six days for me must have been illegal....

So you were working 12 hours a day and you weren't getting money for overtime, Harry?
between3
15 Sep 2013 #16
delphiandomine

"but they will get those hours back at quiet times." - pracitce shows that workers don't get those hours. What about payable overtime? What about working partialy at one day? (7-9; 11-1pm, 2-3 pm etc.). Remember that in fact social benefits in Poland gives nothing. After losing a job you can get unemploynment benefit for 6 months, which is about half of minimal wage (700 PLN; to rent a small flat in Warsaw you have to spend about 1500 PLN).

So, you work 12-hours a day (cutted in few parts a day), you can be fired after 6 months and don't get money for half a year overtime work. You also can't go to a court and when you are unemployed you only count on your family. Welcome Britain! It's nice to work for Queen...
Paulina 13 | 2,232
15 Sep 2013 #17
Has anything actually changed?

A fragment of another comment:

It's nice that they explain it as doing in the interest of the citizens, what a farse.
Now every nutcase can tell you to come on Sunday to work for 20 hours and he will give you back on your free time after a year.

As I understand it, all that changes is the reference time period, meaning employers can use their labour more flexibly. Yes, it means that people might have to work longer hours, but they will get those hours back at quiet times. It was a badly needed change, especially in the service industries.

It may look like a "badly needed change", but I'm afraid that in Polish reality employees that were exploited already will be even more exploited.

We'll see what it will look like, I guess.
TheOther 6 | 3,692
15 Sep 2013 #18
We'll see what it will look like, I guess.

Is there a chance that this will generate another wave of emigrants leaving the country?
mafketis 32 | 10,574
15 Sep 2013 #19
This has been the practice in some contexts for a long time. A friend of mine worked in a hospital with 12 hour shifts (overtime had to do with number of hours worked in a month, not on a single shift). In some jobs a 12 hour shift wil be so counterproductive by loss of productivity though fatigue that the losses will quickly outweigh the supposed gains.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
15 Sep 2013 #20
It may look like a "badly needed change", but I'm afraid that in Polish reality employees that were exploited already will be even more exploited.

I think it's important to analyse who is protesting and why.

For me, what this means is that many State-owned businesses (or majority State owned) will be able legally to demand flexible working conditions from their employees. That was missing before - and those employees often were very rigid in their mentality towards flexible working. Businesses in general will be able to deploy their labour far more flexibly without falling foul of the rules - which means that they should be more willing to give umowa o prace in the first place.

Most genuine private-sector workers were already working somewhat flexibly as it is. No-one sane is going to push employees into difficult split shifts - they'll lose the good workers very quickly, and it's hard enough to find good reliable employees in Poland.

I don't think it'll lead to any extra exploitation - in the "Polish reality", exploited workers were never on umowa o prace to begin with. If you want to exploit someone, you aren't going to give them a contract that gives them significant rights.

"but they will get those hours back at quiet times." - pracitce shows that workers don't get those hours.

Since when? In virtually every business I've seen, they keep a very close track of these things for fear of the consequences of breaking them. Labour law (for those on umowa o prace) is very heavily loaded in favour of the employee.

What about payable overtime?

If it's genuine overtime, it'll be paid. But if it all averages out at 40 hours, why should overtime be paid?

What about working partialy at one day? (7-9; 11-1pm, 2-3 pm etc.).

Already a reality for many seasonal workers. And most business owners know fine well that making someone work that sort of shifts won't work in the long run - the productivity losses by keeping people hanging around will more than outweigh the benefits of not paying them for a couple of hours.

So, you work 12-hours a day (cutted in few parts a day), you can be fired after 6 months and don't get money for half a year overtime work.

Except it won't work like that, because the 12 hour days have to be averaged over 6 months. Someone genuinely working 12 hours a day for 6 months would be in line for a massive overtime payment, as well as the employer being in significant trouble for breaking the law. If they have breaks in the middle of the shift, then it's a free labour market - they didn't have to accept the job.

What can and will change is that many state-owned companies may now start to demand genuine flexibility from workers. They may have to start working around the business, rather than the previous situation where the business worked for the employees. I suspect at least some of the protests come in that direction.

From an employment point of view, this situation actually makes it much easier for employers to hire people on proper contracts. For instance - let's say you run a hotel that's very popular in summer and in the winter holidays. Your workers can now legally work 12-14 hour days in season, while getting that time returned to them in the unpopular spring and autumn months. It works for everyone - they get a proper contract, they get masses of time off when the business is quiet and everyone's happy.

More... according to this law, employer can push employees to work in one day for example from 8 to 10, then 12-1 pm, then 2-5 pm, and 7-9 pm - and it'll be counted as 8-hours day.

Yes, but any employer doing this wouldn't be offering umowa o prace in the first place.

More... government is preparing act about liquidation of free sundays nad saturdays - if somebody work in foreign company, which is oriented to states, which don't have similar to polish holidays. For example, if somebody work for arabic company, has no right to free sundays (and in fact fridays too...).

Which makes sense. They can have free Mondays and Tuesdays instead.
Harry
15 Sep 2013 #21
So you were working 12 hours a day and you weren't getting money for overtime, Harry?

As I've said here many times in the past, I'm a one-person company. My boss is so harsh that he actually pays me less when I work more than 8 hours per day. Anyway, must dash, need to get this work finished by 8pm today.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,768
15 Sep 2013 #22
I have seen very little in Polish management styles/attitudes that lead me to believe anything other than managers and owners will interpret this in a way to their maximum benefit and to their employees' maximum detriment.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
15 Sep 2013 #23
If they wanted "maximum benefit", they wouldn't employ them under umowa o prace to begin with.

What will change is that employers will feel more able to employ people under those contracts, as they will be able to use the labour quite flexibly.
Harry
15 Sep 2013 #24
have seen very little in Polish management styles/attitudes.

Some certainly will (some Polish managers are terrible at their jobs and are only managers due to nepotism etc). Most won't.
The ones that do will very soon find that they're losing their decent staff.
between3
15 Sep 2013 #25
I have seen very little in Polish management styles/attitu

delphiandomine
> For me, what this means is that many State-owned businesses (or majority State owned) will be able legally to demand flexible working conditions from their

> employees. That was missing before - and those employees often were very rigid in their mentality towards flexible working.

It's so easy to say that they are just bad... Remember, the richest polish stock company (with richest income) is state owned with strong trade unions. It was defended by trade unions from selling to Americans, when it was "poor" mine. Remember what happened with factory bought by Telefonika, when trade unions was crushed.

> Businesses in general will be able to deploy their labour far more flexibly without falling foul of the rules - which means that they should be more willing to give umowa o prace in the first place.

Why businessman should hire another person, if it is possible to push another Pole to work harder for the same price? It doesn't work in Spain or Greece.

> Most genuine private-sector workers were already working somewhat flexibly as it is.

So, according to what You said few lines up, it doesn't give workplaces (and was not forbidden, have no consequences).

> No-one sane is going to push employees into difficult split shifts - they'll lose the good workers very quickly, and it's hard enough to find good reliable employees in Poland.

I'm astonished: "No-one sane is going to push employees into difficult split shifts" ;DDDD

Ahh, let's forget about law! Because nobody sane will break the rules!

> I don't think it'll lead to any extra exploitation - in the "Polish reality", exploited workers were never on umowa o prace to begin with. If you want to exploit someone, you aren't going to give them a contract that gives them significant rights.

****, are You talking seriously? There is no payless overtime on "umowa o pracę"? (means "long-term contract" in PL). I see You just didn't heard about paying part of earnings "under table" on long-term contracts. It is the way to have a threat for workers, when they go to court or just are ill. Employer just don't pay this money.

Don't sell ideal vision od labour market.

>> between3:
>> "but they will get those hours back at quiet times." - pracitce shows that workers don't get those hours.

> Since when? In virtually every business I've seen, they keep a very close track of these things for fear of the consequences of breaking them.

Can You tell me about a few facts, when employer faced this "consequences"?

> Labour law (for those on umowa o prace) is very heavily loaded in favour of the employee.

And this is why EVERYBODY, who worked abroad says, about slavery in Poland. Here in Poland employees have so much rights...

>> between3:
>> What about payable overtime?

> If it's genuine overtime, it'll be paid. But if it all averages out at 40 hours, why should overtime be paid?

First, borrow me some money, I give it back a year later, trust me... If you don't trust me, get money, which you don't have and go to court, polish court with years lasting cases...

Second, if i work from 7-9, then 11-1pm etc. It means in fact, that my whole day is done by a job. I don't have time to carry children or private life. And... i even can not say that i have overtime hours.

between3:
>> What about working partialy at one day? (7-9; 11-1pm, 2-3 pm etc.).

>Already a reality for many seasonal workers. And most business owners know fine well that making someone work that sort of shifts won't work in the long run - the > productivity losses by keeping people hanging around will more than outweigh the benefits of not paying them for a couple of hours.

So it is reality that seasonal workers shoul be slaves... For centuries there was not such problem... But ok. why everybody must be seasonal? Why not group contracts like in Germany?

between3:
>>So, you work 12-hours a day (cutted in few parts a day), you can be fired after 6 months and don't get money for half a year overtime work.

>Except it won't work like that, because the 12 hour days have to be averaged over 6 months.

Really, so what if not?
Second, do you think it is not slavery to push people to work few months 12-hours a day? Day divided in parts...

> Someone genuinely working 12 hours a day for 6 months would be in line for a massive overtime payment, as well as the employer being in significant trouble for breaking the law.

Ahh, "significant" troubles. Could say more about this "troubles"?

> If they have breaks in the middle of the shift, then it's a free labour market - they didn't have to accept the job.

What about "if you don't accept human rights, go to jail"?
It' so naive, especially in Poland to believe in labour market.

> From an employment point of view, this situation actually makes it much easier for employers to hire people on proper contracts. For instance - let's say you run a hotel that's very popular in summer and in the winter holidays. Your workers can now legally work 12-14 hour days in season, while getting that time returned to them in the unpopular spring and autumn months. It works for everyone - they get a proper contract, they get masses of time off when the business is quiet and everyone's happy.

I wish You work like that half a year and carry children...

Guest:
>> More... according to this law, employer can push employees to work in one day for example from 8 to 10, then 12-1 pm, then 2-5 pm, and 7-9 pm - and it'll be

>> counted as 8-hours day.

> Yes, but any employer doing this wouldn't be offering umowa o prace in the first place.

So what? What gives a name for contract?

Guest:
>> More... government is preparing act about liquidation of free sundays nad saturdays - if somebody work in foreign company, which is oriented to states, which

>> don't have similar to polish holidays. For example, if somebody work for arabic company, has no right to free sundays (and in fact fridays too...).

> Which makes sense. They can have free Mondays and Tuesdays instead.

They live in POLAND not Saudi Arabia. Their children are at home on Saturdays and Sundays not Mondays.

I'm going emotional seeing another time the same bancrupted ideas like "nobody sane will push people to be slaves". I'll try not to reply again.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
15 Sep 2013 #26
I'm sorry, but I can't take someone seriously who equates having to work some bad hours with slavery. I'm sure most of us on here have worked long hours before and don't see the need to cry about having to work 10 hours one day as opposed to 8.

At the end of the day, it's for the employee and employer to decide. If someone isn't worth very much on the labour market and can be replaced easily, then they have no-one to blame but themselves. There is no right to work in Poland, nor should there be - we tried that experiment before and it didn't work.

They live in POLAND not Saudi Arabia. Their children are at home on Saturdays and Sundays not Mondays.

That's their problem. If they don't like it, then they should work in a job that doesn't require such working. I'm sure someone else would be happy to have their job, especially as outsourcing companies tend to offer decent terms and conditions.

I found this and thought I'd share... thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/147250,Unionists-hold-protest-finale-in-Warsaw

Look at the picture. How many of those people there actually work, given the high amount of older people in the crowd and very few young people? I repeat what I said - this protest was about protecting a very cushy/easy life for trade unionists, not about employment law at all.
Crow 152 | 9,820
15 Sep 2013 #27
we shall all pay the price of progress.
peterweg 37 | 2,319
15 Sep 2013 #28
>Except it won't work like that, because the 12 hour days have to be averaged over 6 months.

Er, no any law that demands more the an 48hour week will be illegal under the Working Time Directive. Its not going to happen.

Poland accepted this when it joined the EU, this entire thread is based on ********.

Also, its a requirement that you have a 13hour rest period in every 24hours.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
15 Sep 2013 #29
Er, no any law that demands more the an 48hour week will be illegal under the Working Time Directive. Its not going to happen.

Now now. The trade unionists will have you believe anything!

Poland accepted this when it joined the EU, this entire thread is based on ********.

It's the usual Solidarność scaremongering tactics. I doubt the OP even lives in Poland.

Also, its a requirement that you have a 13hour rest period in every 24hours.

Hmm, is this so? I wasn't aware of a minimum rest period...
peterweg 37 | 2,319
15 Sep 2013 #30
a limit to weekly working time, which must not exceed 48 hours on average, including any overtime
a minimum daily rest period, of 11 consecutive hours in every 24
a rest break during working time, if the worker is on duty for longer than six hours

ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=706&langId=en&intPageId=205

11 hours not 13, my mistake..

And a few years out of date, but ..

Working time in the European Union: Poland



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