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Does democratic Poland guarantee it's LGBT citizens respect for human and civil rights?


jon357 63 | 14,255
23 Jun 2015 #391
Exactly, extremely hot and bothered.

I was worried that posting about those lobbyists from America might be seen as off-topic, however a good look at some of those links shows that they have been funding actions abroad, including trying to impose the death penalty for being gay in parts of Africa as well as funding activities in Poland.

And consistently, these ultra-Conservative campaign groups have ended up on the losing side - they are no longer even tune with the RCC.

And in Poland, though recent historical crises have meant that change can be slow, things are moving - at least in Poland they are moving from a point at which rights and privacy have traditionally been respected.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
23 Jun 2015 #392
whether or not rights

Whether or not they are "rights" is the issue. This is all a matter of convention and consensual agreement. People in favor of traditional family values, and those are still the majoritxy (thank God!), do do not regard same-sex partners as fit to marry and raise children. Full stop! If someone announced that siblings have the "right" to marry starting next Monday morning at 10AM, would that make it right, prudent, or advisable and would you automaticlkaly support it like the Germans did Jew-killing "rights"? Could you finally answer without your forked-tongue evasion?
jon357 63 | 14,255
23 Jun 2015 #393
Whether or not they are "rights" is the issue.

Not as far as the law is concerned - rights are defined. One of them is that you can have sexual relations with whomsoever you like provided he or she or they agree, are over the legally defined age of consent and are intellectually able to consent.

People in favor of traditional family values,

Are entitled to their views and judging by some of the extremist websites and well-funded lobbyist groups you've quoted from are unafraid to express those views.

If someone announced that siblings have the "right" to marry starting next Monday morning at 10AM, would that make it right, prudent, or advisable

It would make it legal. And therefore a right.

Jew-killing "rights

There you go again.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
23 Jun 2015 #394
There YOU go again evading the question. Depravity is a Pandora's box, it keeps on expanding and engulfing more and more areas and creating more and more pseudo-"rights". So to you the legislator is sacred and infallible no matter what he enacts?! What about Man-Boy love? They are waiting in the wings and looking forward to the day when the abbreviation can be legally expanded to: LGBTQMB. Will you then say: that's the law so it's legal?
jon357 63 | 14,255
23 Jun 2015 #395
Depravity

There you go again. Subjective terms.

What about Man-Boy love? They are waiting in the wings and looking forward to the day when the abbreviation can be legally expanded to: LGBTQMB.

Legal already in parts of the world, though certainly not 'waiting in the wings' in Poland where the age of consent is 15 and has been for a very long time.

Will you then say: that's the law so it's legal?

Will you then say: that's the law but it's illegal?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
23 Jun 2015 #396
the age of consent is 15

What about the parents of a 15-year-old boy who is being buggered by some old fag in exchange for generous presents? I know there are slumdweller rents who would welcome the gifts and one less mouth to feed, but do normal, decent, concerned parents have any rights under the law?
jon357 63 | 14,255
23 Jun 2015 #397
What about the parents of a 15-year-old boy who is being buggered by some old fag

Or equally the parents of a 15-year old girl who is being

buggered by some old

whatever for 'generous presents....

but do normal, decent, concerned parents have any rights under the law?

They certainly don't have the right to live off prostitution.

personal remarks will be removed
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
23 Jun 2015 #398
Is there any way parents can legally stop or prevent such sexual advances to their child by an older person? For insatnce, if the adolescent is grounded by his parents but manages to flee out the window, what recourse to the authorities do the parents have?
jon357 63 | 14,255
23 Jun 2015 #399
None whatsoever - regardless of the sexuality involved. Nothing new about stuff like that, if you've read Pride and Prejudice.

This is an entirely different issue though and could warrant a thread of its own. The age of consent in Poland is however the same and that is a good thing - though I do feel 15 is on the young side and would favour a law (regardless of sexuality) that takes into account the age gap.

personal remarks will be removed

Shame the same judgement is not applied a little more evenly.

Too late (and too mildly irritated by the Mod's response to my response to your charming "15-year old boy being buggered by an old fag" expression) to edit and say, keeping it on topic that even when the ages of consent in much of the world were different for straight and gay, in Poland they were equal - whatever you may think about 15 years olds having sex, again, rights are respected evenly.

Even during the dark years of the 30s, the law was equal.

Another thing about the age issue (for both, not just LGB, however especially significant for them) is the importance of full and frank age-appropriate sex education. This must cover LGB (and perhaps T) issues as soon as it covers any other issues to do with sexual attraction - to avoid a lot of the harm done by societal attitudes (violence, suicide,depression etc).

Equal and even-handed treatment is not only a human right: in this case it is a positive thing for our society and very much common sense that the government appropriately monitor this. Poland is getting slowly and steadily better at this, in the face of some irrational opposition.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
23 Jun 2015 #400
age-appropriate sex education

On condition that youngsters are not deceived or propagandised, for instance by presenting things as if there were two equal options: hetero and homo. It should be made amply clear that the homo variant represents only a tiny fraction of society and the high-risk nature of the group as well as contagious gay-specific diseases should be explained. Also, sex ed must have full parental approval -- no clandestine programmes carried out behind parents' back.
jon357 63 | 14,255
23 Jun 2015 #401
as if there were two equal options: hetero and homo.

There are no options at all - people do not choose their sexual orientation. You forgot bisexuality and asexuality, by the way.

contagious gay-specific diseases

There are no such thing, as well you know.

lso, sex ed must have full parental approval -- no clandestine programmes carried out behind parents' back.

It certainly shouldn't be clandestine, nor should it require parental approval - significant minorities (i.e. religious fundamentalists) are likely to opt out if the facts taught don't match their 'beliefs'.
Levi 12 | 450
24 Jun 2015 #402
"There are no options at all - people do not choose their sexual orientation. You forgot bisexuality and asexuality, by the way."

Actually you also forgot some options Jon. But i will help you since i come from the gayiest country in the world after Sweden (maybe we already caught them):

There is also Polissexuality (Attraction to other genders than Male and Female) and Panssexuality (Attraction to anything regardless of existance of gender).

These are the most accepted definitions.

Some modern theoricists have also inserted another definitions, as Zoosexuality (Attraction to animals, and also can be divided between Homozoosexuality, Heterozoosexuality and Polyzoosexuality) or Biossexuality (sexual attraction per living things including plants).

We learn all those definitions during school in Brazil and we learn that we should respect, accept and even eventually try some of them.

When we are only 12 years old.

Thanks progressive world.
jon357 63 | 14,255
24 Jun 2015 #403
Excellent - it's good to hear you say that that the third world seems to be developing so fast, although a quick search of the internet suggests that your information is at best a load of old cobblers - perhaps you dreamt it one night. We Europeans certainly don't get taught about 'biosexuality' (actually known as chlorophilia, and rarer than hens' teeth - really something only heard of on the psychiatrist's couch and even then hardly ever)) or any of those other (rather complex) definitions - and certainly not about animal sex. As I say, a load of old cobblers - fair to say that a significant number of the things you have claimed here were similarly called out..

Hard to know what that's got to do with the human rights of LGBT people in Poland. We do have age appropriate social education in Europe to one degree or another, all though it does have its limitations in countries that are prudish about school pupils learning about such an important part of life. Generally this is uncontroversial except among religious extremists (even the neo-nazi Marine Le Pen who you recently praised does not object) and helps to create a framework where human and civil rights are expected.

In Poland there are significant issues around sex education, however the situation here is getting better and rights are respected, despite loud and hysterical screaming from the ultra-religious/ultra-conservative minority.

So in Poland sex with animals or with 3 or 4 peoples at times + goats is not controversial?

Read carefully before replying - age-appropriate sex education is not controversial in Europe and important as part of a broader framework of civil rights (and a less inhibited society) - group sex and goats are just something you tried to introduce into the discussion.

Exactly! If we discriminate against Necrosexuality and those that like sex with dead people, we would be Necrophilophobes and then Anna Grodzka would take us to Jail because we are not "modern" enough!

Again, I think you're getting confused, there's no such word as 'necrophilophobe' and no single member of the Polish parliament, however highly respected, can "take us to jail".

So for you a dead body should have more rights than a fetus?

Neither have any rights, however I've never heard of sexual relations with a foetus - perhaps it's something you learnt in school in South America,

" De-kulakisation (murdering any peasant with more than 3 chickens), termination of pregnancy (instead of killing the unborn), so why not necro rights?"

Exactly. I fear that soon the Progressive Left wing will create another terms, like "Deheterophisation" (Destruction of heterossexuals) or "Decristianization" (Mass murder of christians).

Chickens too, as well as goats! Apart from its role as part of a general dialogue regarding the modern world and the way freedom and rights (especially LGBT) are increasingly codified and cherished, this is in danger of heading towards very off topic, as well as fantasy - and none of this makes the slightest bit of difference to the cold hard fact that in Europe we respect people's rights and Poland is not backward in this.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
24 Jun 2015 #404
the Progressive Left wing

Fortunately, we are still protected from the radical, pro-altersexual fanatics by the Polish Constitution which clearly stipulates:

Article 18 - Marriage, being a union of a man and a woman, as well as the family, motherhood and parenthood, shall be placed under the protection and care of the Republic of Poland.

That means that those try to impose homo-marriage are in violation of the Constitution. Although the decade-long Polish-Polish war has been a huge waste of human energy, money and media space, at least it has one redeeming factor. The roughly 50-50 political split between to crooked, economcially pro-corporate and socially left-leaning liberals (PO & flunkies) on the omne hand -- and the pro-Polish, pro-family and pro-Catholic patriots (PiS and allies) on the other means that the prospect of homo-distorting the supreme law of the land stands a snowball's chance in hell! Dzięki Bogu!
jon357 63 | 14,255
24 Jun 2015 #405
I wouldn't be too sure that the forces of Ciemnogrod will prevail. Much as you may dislike thing that change; rapid and unstoppable change is what is happening - this is the nature of things. And we can see that it's happening fast enough for you to (as we can see here) get very very worked up about it.

The next generation, far less so.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
24 Jun 2015 #406
contagious gay-specific diseases
There are no such thing, as well you know.

Since the sites of pro-family groups are immediatley dismissed by pro-homo nutters as allegedly irrelevant, biased or otherwise worthless, the following links come from strictly medical sources and, incidentally, ones sympathetic towards STD-ridden altersexuals:

Men who have sex with men are 17 times more likely to develop anal cancer than heterosexual men - clearly undermines the unsubstantiated claim that "gays are just like anyone else" also in the area of health risks. Read on:

Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STDs) have been increasing among gay and bisexual men, with recent increases in syphilis being documented across the country. In 2012, men who have sex with men (MSM) accounted for 75% of primary and secondary syphilis cases in the United States. MSM often are diagnosed with other STDs, including chlamydia and gonorrhea infections.

HPV (Human Papillomavirus), the most common STD in the United States, is also a concern for MSM. Some types of HPV can cause genital and anal warts and some can lead to the development of anal and oral cancer. Men who have sex with men are 17 times more likely to develop anal cancer than heterosexual men.

cdc.gov/msmhealth/STD.htm

Findings indicate that gay and bisexual men have high rates of infectious disease, including HIV, syphilis and gonorrhea.
tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02791072.2003.10400511

The lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) community in the United States continues to be disproportionately impacted by smoking. The LGBT community is among the populations most severely impacted by tobacco use. The most recent study suggests the LGBT community smokes at a rate almost 50% to 200% higher than the general population.

thedccenter.org/facts_smoking.html

people do not choose their sexual orientation

What options are open to those who feel uncomfortable with their "unchosen" orientation?
jon357 63 | 14,255
24 Jun 2015 #407
So in fact non-of those illnesses are

gay-specific diseases

- just a matter of the single, largely urban lifestyle. Smoking as a

gay-secific disease

indeed.
And even if they were, which they are not, there still isn't even the slightest reason for that to affect legislation or human rights either in Poland or elsewhere.

pro-family groups are immediatley dismissed by pro-homo nutters

There you go again....
Polsyr 6 | 769
24 Jun 2015 #408
pro-family groups are immediatley dismissed by pro-homo nutters

While this statement is very offensive, it has to be said that pro-family and anti-homsexual are not that same, and are not mutually inclusive.

In fact, none of the people that I know in Poland who identify themselves as "pro-family" are anti-homosexual. Being anti-homsexual is (in my opinion) the same as being anti-family because every homosexual person is someone's son/daughter or brother/sister or aunt/uncle, and in many cases someone's mom or dad.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
24 Jun 2015 #409
anti-homsexual

Is revealing facts -- statistics, medical research, etc. -- that the LGBTQ propagandists never mention and in fact are trying to hide from the public being anti-homosexual?
jon357 63 | 14,255
24 Jun 2015 #410
Yes, if those so-called 'statistics, medical research, etc' are claptrap and intended to perpetuate repression. Fortunately in Poland and the rest of Europe, lawmakers tend to see beyond all that stuff. The voting public too, as the landslide victory in the Ireland referendum shows.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
24 Jun 2015 #411
this statement is very offensive

And the frequently used "religious nutters" is not offensive?

intended to perpetuate

Overinterpretation! They are intended to alert the public to health risks and other threats posed by hte proliferation of LGBTQ-promtoed lifestyles.
It is precisely the suppression of the truth by LGBTQ propagandists that is helping to normativise deviation and highlight its alleged social and pathological neutrality. People also beieved Stalin's far-fetched propaganda. Or else!
jon357 63 | 14,255
24 Jun 2015 #412
And the frequently used "religious nutters" is not offensive?

If the cap fits...

Fortunately human rights in Poland are not dependent on such people, nor does their behaviour strengthen their case.





Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
24 Jun 2015 #413
just a matter of the single, largely urban lifestyle

You will do anything to explain away ever shred of evidence and perpetuate the "gays like anyone else" lie peddled by LGBTQ.

Re your latest devious riposte: That may be true, except you failed to inidcate why single, largely urban hetero males rank lower in those pathologies. A mere coincidence?

Recent outbreaks of lymphogranuloma venereum among homosexual men throughout Europe highlight the need to consider sexually transmitted infections in the differential diagnosis of proctitis.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2660501

No-one is saying the diseased should suffer reprisals or punishment -- they should receive whatever medical treatment is prescribed for a given malady. At the same time,the public has the right to know which llifestyles are in the high-risk category and may be a health hazard.
Polsyr 6 | 769
24 Jun 2015 #414
@Polonius3;

I quote from the site you linked:
"Anal sex is a prevalent sexual practice among both MSM and heterosexuals"

Also, it doesn't not say anywhere that any of the diseases discussed are "gay-specific" nor does it say any disease is more prevalent amongst homosexuals.

How does this relate to LGBT rights in Poland?
jon357 63 | 14,255
24 Jun 2015 #415
why single, largely urban hetero males rank lower

Probably because they have the traditional ability to marry - something which is fortunately being rolled out to everyone.

Recent outbreaks of lymphogranuloma venereum among homosexual men throughout Europe highlight the need to consider sexually transmitted infections in the differential diagnosis of proctitis.

And so what? This is not any sort of a basis for human rights legislation. Nor would anyone credible suggest so.

I quote from the site you linked:
"Anal sex is a prevalent sexual practice among both MSM and heterosexuals"

And far less so among MSM than Pol3 seems to think. He's probably mentioned it more tomes in this thread than most MSM have actually done it.

How does this relate to LGBT rights in Poland?

Quite.

Note to all...Poland and LGBT rights, very little of the subject has been discussed.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
24 Jun 2015 #416
rapid and unstoppable change is what is happening - this is the nature of things

The true nature of things is that nothing lasts indefintiely and everything ends.
All these homo-rights types may be having their heyday at present and foolishly expecting the whole business to last indefinitely. Spain, Ireland, France, Germany, Sweden, Benelux, Canada, some US states. The taboos are falling one by one and pansexualism appears to reign supreme - it seems unstoppable! But as Godwin explained, this has happened time and again since time immemorial. First the Rhineland was militarised, then Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, Norway, Benelux France and finally much of Russia were taken over. Like ripe cherries they kept falling one by one and the whole thing seemed unstoppable. But in actuality that project lasted a mere 12 years. The homo businees got started in the 1970s. More than four decades is quite long for any movement or trend, so the end is probably already in sight. So enjoy it while it lasts!

What has that got to do with Poland or the topic?
jon357 63 | 14,255
25 Jun 2015 #417
All these homo-rights types

Hmmm

so the end is probably already in sight

I wouldn't be so sure of that...

Things are healthily and steadily getting better, despite everything the bigots throw at people

In 2004, Warsaw's Municipal Transport Authority decision to allow cohabiting partners of gay and lesbian employees to travel free on the city's public transport system was the first case of recognition of same-sex couples in Poland. In 2007, a decision of Chorzów's City Center of Social Assistance recognized homosexual relationships.
On 23 February 2007, the verdict of the Appeal Court in Białystok recognized same-sex cohabitation. On 6 December 2007, it was confirmed by Judgement of The Supreme Court of Warsaw. [...]
Cropped

queer/news/192329/precedensowy-wyrok-w-zlotowie
thenews/international/artykul126666.html
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
25 Jun 2015 #418
Things are healthily and steadily getting better

That is to be expected and many more examples of the apparent homo takeover cold be cited. At present, homo-rights types are having their heyday and looking forward to more depravity to come. At the current pansexualisation rate It shouldn't surprise anyone if some countries legalise incestual marriage, order homosexual ed for preschoolers and set up masturbation corners in schools. But eventually at some point everything comes to an end. Nothing is unstoppable as history has clearly shown, so enjoy it all while you still can.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
25 Jun 2015 #419
@Polonius: where have homos taken over? Please let me know! Although I am hetero, I love gays! ;)
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
25 Jun 2015 #420
where have homos taken over

If the gay lobby representing a tiny 2% minority has the clout to persuade the Education Ministry to promote "non-conventional families" in textbooks and normal married heterosexual families are no longer invited to help review planned textbooks, what would you call that? When pro-homo content in textbooks and the media and popular culture in general exceeds 2%, then that is disproportionate and unwarranted influence.

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