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Decoded talks inside Poland's president's plane are released in Internet


Seanus 15 | 19,706
3 Jun 2010 #91
Convex, he said it and I wasn't being sarcastic. That's how zany conspiracy theorists think. As wildrover said, basic physics just wouldn't allow it.

Delph has the right idea. Why was the training unobserved? Their survival instincts SURELY would have kicked in. These were not jihadists who would sacrifice themselves in the name of a god. All in the name of bravado? I find that hard to believe.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,795
3 Jun 2010 #92
Their survival instincts SURELY would have kicked in.

It's worth noting that we don't know (yet) if they did kick in, as the flight data recorder data hasn't been released yet.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
3 Jun 2010 #93
I think you misunderstood me, Delph. I meant the survival instincts of the pilots. They were clearly alerted by the TAWS system and would have taken evasive action.
convex 20 | 3,978
3 Jun 2010 #94
I meant the survival instincts of the pilots. They were clearly alerted by the TAWS system and would have taken evasive action.

TAWS alerts while landing are normal. Pilots under pressure tend to descend below minimums. Pilots that descend below minimums are either skillful get the job done heroes, or dead.

All that aside, they apparently weren't even flying the plane...
Seanus 15 | 19,706
3 Jun 2010 #95
If they weren't flying the plane, what were they doing? Holding a conference? ;) ;) Getting 'final relief' from the lovely stewardesses? ;) ;)

What comfort would that descent provide, convex, as I am new to this? Flirting with the tops of trees is just lunacy IMHO. Nothing more, nothing less.
convex 20 | 3,978
3 Jun 2010 #96
If they weren't flying the plane, what were they doing?

Probably looking for the runway and letting the AP fly the plane into the ground

t comfort would that descent provide, convex, as I am new to this? Flirting with the tops of trees is just lunacy IMHO. Nothing more, nothing less.

It's incredibly poor judgment. Question is, why did they do that? I think the Polish AF will be blamed in the end if they actually decide to do an investigation of the root cause.
Wroclaw Boy
3 Jun 2010 #97
Without reading the entire thread whats the crack here? do we have skull duggery or what?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
3 Jun 2010 #98
And what could the Russian authorities have done as an emergency measure? Where were the lights and the directions in? Letting themselves die? Are you implying that this was a suicide mission? Did they or did they not have time for evasive maneuvers? I can tell you that Protasiuk's family were utterly devasted. He left children behind.

So, in summary, what can we glean from these 'transcripts'? Virtually nothing without further corroboration.
convex 20 | 3,978
3 Jun 2010 #99
So, in summary, what can we glean from these 'transcripts'? Virtually nothing without further corroboration.

The transcripts tell us that they descended below minimums, which is pretty much what sky and peter mentioned as well. Get-there-itis. Kills more people than you might think. They weren't consciously trying to kill themselves, but they were pushing the risk envelope to unacceptable levels.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
3 Jun 2010 #100
Another area that I feel has only been partially covered was the use of mobile phones. There was a debate on this between Popular Mechanics and Loose Change in relation to 9/11. Convex, to what extent can overuse of such cellphones impact on the electronic equipment in use?

There are idiots who try and say it was an assassination attempt. How could they have known where the plane was going to crash? Also, that anyone would survive the impact? It is those conspiracy theorists that get my goat.
convex 20 | 3,978
3 Jun 2010 #101
Convex, to what extent can overuse of such cellphones impact on the electronic equipment in use?

Not enough to kill people.

But seriously, looking at the terrain profile, and considering they were using the radar altimeter to get their height, it's stupid.

They were flying an NDB approach like a precision approach using decision height instead of altitude. So if the transcripts are true, that already points to them breaking the rules.

This is looking more and more like sloppy flying.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
3 Jun 2010 #102
Can you prove the authenticity of those transcripts? I certainly can't.
convex 20 | 3,978
3 Jun 2010 #103
Of course not, but I can't prove that Jaroslaw isn't an alien sent here to enslave us either.

It just comes down to reasoning.

Polish and Russian authorities are happy.

Rush to get the cargo delivered.

New crew.

Non precision approach in very bad weather.

It's not really all that surprising that they killed themselves. All it takes is someone calling out radar altimeter readings on a non precision approach...
Seanus 15 | 19,706
3 Jun 2010 #104
New crew? Hardly that new

Rush? I haven't heard of such rushing in planes. The only rushing I heard was in false reporting.

Have you asked Szeremet and Rzepa if they are happy? They didn't seem to be on 23/04.

You describe people as cargo?

Reasoning? Wouldn't that tell us that TAWS and erring on the side of caution was rational?

Non-precision approach? Any doubts and you divert or request extra help

They killed themselves? Again you are implying suicide.
convex 20 | 3,978
3 Jun 2010 #105
New crew? Hardly that new

How many hours had that crew flown together in that configuration?

Rush? I haven't heard of such rushing in planes. The only rushing I heard was in false reporting.

They left early, with enough time to land at an alternate and still complete the mission.... right.

Have you asked Szeremet and Rzepa if they are happy? They didn't seem to be on 23/04.

Could you give me a link to where Rzepa's current complaints about the investigation?

You describe people as cargo?

Self loading at that.

Reasoning? Wouldn't that tell us that TAWS and erring on the side of caution was rational?

My reasoning about the crash.

Non-precision approach? Any doubts and you divert or request extra help

It's an approach where no glidepath is provided. Regarding the second bit, I think you have a bit of an optimistic view on the world of aviation...

They killed themselves? Again you are implying suicide.

Causing your own death through negligence does not make it suicide.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
3 Jun 2010 #106
I'll give you a clue, many more than you had originally posted. I checked up on it.

I guess so, yes. Still, why report nonsense and then retract it? What faith does that provide to its readership?

I can't remember the news station but he was dissatisfied with not getting the transcripts by the 22/04 promised time.

And I respect your input as a pilot.

Well, where there is a will, there is a way and I can't believed they lacked the will.

Time will tell if it was pure negligence or if a novus actus interveniens was involved. It does seem like he was the proximate cause but I'd like to see a debate with aviation experts coming together to find anomalies or consistencies.
convex 20 | 3,978
3 Jun 2010 #107
I'll give you a clue, many more than you had originally posted. I checked up on it.

I'd be interested to see it.

I guess so, yes. Still, why report nonsense and then retract it? What faith does that provide to its readership?

They left late, there wasn't enough time to land at an alternate without being late. There is nothing to retract there.

I can't remember the news station but he was dissatisfied with not getting the transcripts by the 22/04 promised time.

Seems pretty happy at the moment. Remember, one has questioned the integrity of the FDR and CVR because they've been under joint custody since being found. The only point that integrity could have been compromised would have been between the plane flying into the ground and discovery of the recorders.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
3 Jun 2010 #108
I'm talking about the trying to land 4 times and circling crap.

There was even a mention of confidential NATO stuff being obtained by the Russians. What do you make of that? It sounds like nonsense to me.
wildrover 98 | 4,451
3 Jun 2010 #109
Whilst looking at similar stuff on the internet i discovered that aircrew flying important Polish people into the ground is nothing new...

Apart from the crash which killed the president in Smolensk , and the casa crash that killed the top military people , there was a previous crash in a helicopter that almost killed a Polish president...The president praised the pilot for saving his life by crash landing the helicopter , but the pilot was later charged over the crash...

Prior to this a lot of other important government people died in a crash near Szczecin , so it seems there is a bit of a history of Polish pilots crashing planes with important people on board....

Maybe its time they had a look at the way pilots are trained in Poland..something is clearly going wrong...!
Seanus 15 | 19,706
3 Jun 2010 #110
Are you implying that Polish pilots are naff? How very dare you ;) ;) How very double dare you ;) ;)

Dęblin has a great rep but, then again, Poles do tend to overestimate their abilities given their choosing not to use comparative frameworks. Look at Pudzian in MMA. Tim Sylvia whooped his butt good and proper and this was a man on the decline.
wildrover 98 | 4,451
3 Jun 2010 #111
Nooo certainly not...i have the greatest respect for Polish pilots , some of my friends are Polish military pilots...But i just wonder if there is something wrong with the way they are trained or the rules for flying in dodgy conditions...

Its because i have Polish friends who fly that i worry that there is something wrong with the system...!
kondzior 10 | 961
3 Jun 2010 #112
Obvious fake. And not very good at that.
I bet our goverment knows that. They will not admit it, because they would have to react to it. And they lack balls for it.

Kaczynski would not hesitate to declare war on Russia, but he is dead unfortunately.
convex 20 | 3,978
3 Jun 2010 #113
Obviously fake. And apparently Jaroslaw doesn't have the balls to call out his brothers killers. You're right. Obviously.
frd 7 | 1,399
3 Jun 2010 #114
Kaczynski would not hesitate to declare war on Russia, but he is dead unfortunately.

Yeah I guess it's good that he is dead then.
wildrover 98 | 4,451
3 Jun 2010 #115
Kaczynski would not hesitate to declare war on Russia, but he is dead unfortunately.

Well thank god for that then....a war with Russia...that would be a real clever idea....
kondzior 10 | 961
3 Jun 2010 #116
But honorable thing to do. The right answer for such an act.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,795
3 Jun 2010 #117
Look at Pudzian in MMA. Tim Sylvia whooped his butt good and proper and this was a man on the decline.

That was just embarrasing. Sylvia was incredibly poor and still managed to get a win - a man on the decline doesn't even begin to say how utterly awful he was. Yet he was smart enough to just hold on until Pudzian was exhausted!

And apparently Jaroslaw doesn't have the balls to call out his brothers killers. You're right. Obviously.

Yeah, the same man who stands up for Poland is quite happy to let his brothers killers get away with it. Makes sense, doesn't it?

It says a lot that the only source really talking about it being a conspiracy just so happens to be the one media outlet known for exploiting gullible people.
plk123 8 | 4,150
4 Jun 2010 #118
A crew of nearly 100 would surely have planned their journey in advance. The fact is that fog can be easily negotiated by experienced pilots and they didn't need to rush the plane down.

Landing the plane was not a heroic act when they had a bailout option.

they were late.. google if you don't believe me..

they had a bailout plan but once again, they were late.. it's a bit of a polish trait, albeit not a great one there.

See I knew it!!!!! There's a proof here!

mystery solved. lol

Their survival instincts SURELY would have kicked in.

too late..

I find that hard to believe.

you're the one trying to believe conspiracy theories which i have a hard time believing.. most of us are going on some fact here whilst you are going on thin air..

They were clearly alerted by the TAWS system and would have taken evasive action.

you'd think but it's highly probable that they were thinking it's the runway and that they were about to see it.. it's obvious that no one was looking at the instruments and that is what at least a couple of them should have been concentrating on.. not what's outside the windows.. this was not a visual landing..

All that aside, they apparently weren't even flying the plane...

it sure flew itself in the ground, didn't it.. :(

If they weren't flying the plane, what were they doing?

gawking out the portals man...

skull duggery

yeah, just read seanus' post and skip the rest.. lol

Where were the lights and the directions in? Letting themselves die? Are you implying that this was a suicide mission? Did they or did they not have time for evasive maneuvers?

are you freaking kidding me??? how many times do we all have to say that there was fog and their evasive maneuvers came a bit late.. about the time when they said Kuuuuuuuuurwa!!.. can't you freaking read??? seriously man..

And what could the Russian authorities have done as an emergency measure?

what did you want them to do? they told the pilots that the other planes diverted, that the fog was thick.. did you want them to beam someone on board to land the plane for the polaks? dude.. wtf???

This is looking more and more like sloppy flying.

i've been saying from the start that is exactly what it looked like..

Can you prove the authenticity of those transcripts? I certainly can't.

can you prove they aren't? how old are you seanus? seriously dude.. drink a beer and spank the monkey or something.. fcuk..

It's not really all that surprising that they killed themselves. All it takes is someone calling out radar altimeter readings on a non precision approach...

exactly but some can't see what is in plain view..

They killed themselves? Again you are implying suicide.

fcuk dude.. if sloppy work = suicide then yes..

Well, where there is a will, there is a way and I can't believed they lacked the will.

they didn't, they lacked the way.. jeeez

Nooo certainly not...i have the greatest respect for Polish pilots , some of my friends are Polish military pilots...But i just wonder if there is something wrong with the way they are trained or the rules for flying in dodgy conditions...

Its because i have Polish friends who fly that i worry that there is something wrong with the system...!

pressure by this "precious" cargo, maybe? seems to be one thing in common with all these tragedies, no?
MediaWatch 10 | 945
4 Jun 2010 #119
I just can't understand why that guy who took that controversial video of the plane crash had to die.

That alone makes this plane crash tragedy very suspicious.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
4 Jun 2010 #120
Plk123, you proved nothing. Theories are logically thought through.


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