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Decoded talks inside Poland's president's plane are released in Internet


Seanus 15 | 19,706
30 Jun 2010 #331
Delph, we've been over this. The plane was cleared below 100m relative to the terrain they were directly over and not ground level. Their rate of descent was also not made perfectly clear to them. Many sources I've heard and read have said that the Russian ATC were negligent in the performance of their duties. It looks like a stand-down to me.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
30 Jun 2010 #332
The plane was cleared below 100m relative to the terrain they were directly over and not ground level.

Convex will confirm this one way or another, but I'm pretty certain that if you are cleared to a certain height, it's to the height above the runway (so called barometric height - using a barometric altimeter). Using a clearance based on a radar altimeter wouldn't make any sense whatsoever - terrain around airports is never completely flat. Look at Aberdeen Airport - if they were cleared to 100m using radar, they could never get the plane down after it passes over the golf course in Northfield because they would be far too high.

Their rate of descent was also not made perfectly clear to them.

The autopilot was set, so they knew their rate of descent perfectly fine. No surprises there.

Many sources I've heard and read have said that the Russian ATC were negligent in the performance of their duties.

How many of these people have ever even been inside an ATC tower, let alone one as poorly equipped as Smolensk-North was?

That's an interesting article.

It's from a fringe publication not known for publishing accurate articles.

The article is correct that there are too many inconsistencies with the reports of this tragedy to say that it can all be simplistically explained as because of "pilot error". Like the article said, the Russian transcripts could well be counterfeited.

If the Russian transcripts are fake, then the Polish investigators are lying. Personally, I trust the investigators more than I trust fringe loony publications. You might choose not to - but you should think about who these newspapers are trying to sell their publications to.

Reports are always inconsistent - after any disaster, the first hours always have a mess of information and people simply report what they're told. Look at the 7/7 bombings in London - it was initially believed that there was some sort of major power failure which caused some accidents on the underground. In fact, only until the bus was blown up was it becoming clear that it was a terrorist attack.

That's why we have investigators.

According to top German experts, they think there was definitely foul play that went on. They report that the plane was given false data from the Smolensk airport. At least by the airport navigation signals that went out to the arriving plane.

I'm curious as to what these signals were, given that (as you've been told repeatedly) - there was no ILS system installed at Smolensk-North.

What you want to ask yourself is what the Polish Air Force was doing in allowing such an inexperienced crew to handle such a flight.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
30 Jun 2010 #333
Do you have a copy of the exact dialogue between the cabin crew and the Russian ATC, Delph? One verified by both sides and fully authentic? Can you prove its authenticity?
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
30 Jun 2010 #334
I've got access to exactly the same transcript that the Polish State has released as authentic. The Russians also haven't said anything about the authenticity of it, which must be taken as agreement that it's authentic.

Can I prove its authenticity? I'm relying on the word of the very top people in Poland. In the absence of any credible proof to the contrary, it's as good as I've got.

The problem Seanus, is that these conspiracy theories are very badly thought out by people who simply don't know what they're talking about. Some of the nonsense is beyond incredible - such as the talk of "capturing" a GPS signal. The link that MediaWatch posted is so completely ridiculous that it's impossible to even thoroughly debunk it. And of course, the link relies on information from a very highly questionable source that doesn't even publish contact details.

To give you an idea - many conspiracy theorists are claiming that the plane was equipped with the latest technology. Yes, it was - a nice mixture of Russian and Western technology. But what use is this technology if the airport didn't have the technology to interface with the aeroplane? That's just one of the many "holes" in the theories.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
30 Jun 2010 #335
So why the need for follow-up voice work? Why the ever-growing body of evidence from experts which challenges the wisdom of the official line? Why the doubts if the evidence is so clear? Reasonable doubt is a highly important concept in Law.
Wiedzmin_fan - | 79
30 Jun 2010 #336
Why the ever-growing body of evidence from experts which challenges the wisdom of the official line?

Could you specify which experts, what evidence?
Is that similar to the evidence presented in that niezalezna.pl article (about the pilot of Yak-40 who heard presidential crew's communication with ATC)?

Also, do you think it's a credible source?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
30 Jun 2010 #337
I could ;) ;) ;)

Just kidding! There was a link here about German aviation experts lending their expert opinions to the investigative efforts. Also, read Time magazine which ran an article on the holes in the Russian line. It focussed primarily on inaccurate altitude readings and the lack of guidance, a crucial point given the lack of an ILS. I also put some info up somewhere back about MLS and how technology has improved for fog landings. Russia was just behind the times but their personnel could have acted more effectively.


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