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Attack on Poland's judicial independence


jon357 63 | 14,110
30 Jan 2016  #1
This isn't even a return to the days of the PRL, it's actually something closer to some of the world's worst dictatorships. There are already issues concerning the impartiality of courts in Poland (referring to complainants as victims whether or not a crime has been proven, 'expert witnesses' paid by the courts etc), but this is several steps too far.

Basically, it opens the doors to the regime using the courts to persecute whoever they want to, and it's one of the most significant attacks on judicial and legal freedom in Europe for decades.

Firstly it appoints a "Prosecutor General" who is also the Minister of Justice. He is a politician and will have insight into all the cases and can influence as he pleases. He will almost be Judge, jury and executioner. He will have the right to open cases, close cases, to plead and to have people arrested. It also removes the independent selection process for prosecutors and removes their fixed term of office.

There are many learned outspoken critics of these changes including the Law departments of Warsaw University and Krakow University as well as all of the major Polish legal groups. Here are some of their opinions.

thetruthinpoland.wordpress.com/2016/01/29/unbalancing-the-scales-of-justice/
gumishu 11 | 4,993
30 Jan 2016  #2
you are hysterical my friend :)
OP jon357 63 | 14,110
30 Jan 2016  #3
Just read the article and find one lie in there. It's a shocking attack on the judiciary and the basic principles of justice within a democratic society. Not that a democratic society appeals to the PiS cult in any case.
gumishu 11 | 4,993
30 Jan 2016  #4
in the years 1990-2010 attorney general post was held by the minister of justice - nothing new - you are hysterical

and the person held all the powers the minister of justice/attorney general will have now

were you screaming injustice back then???
OP jon357 63 | 14,110
30 Jan 2016  #5
nothing new

Looks like you didn't read the article.

And don't confuse the concept of an Attorney General with the PiS cult's new 'Prosecutor General'.
gumishu 11 | 4,993
30 Jan 2016  #6
And don't confuse the concept of an Attorney General with the PiS cult's new 'Prosecutor General'.

Attorney General is translated to Polish as Prokurator Genralny - which is the same as Prosecutor General
Bieganski 17 | 901
30 Jan 2016  #7
Just read the article and find one lie in there

The blog this article comes from has no merit since it is written by someone who isn't even Polish (like the OP of this thread). The anonymous author "thedandy15" even admits "I can read and speak fairly fluent Polish..." and uses a propaganda banner that demands "Poland For All" (with the Polish flag lost among German, British and EU flags) in truly shameless Fifth Column carpetbagging one-worlder ideological style.
OP jon357 63 | 14,110
30 Jan 2016  #8
since it is written by someone who isn't even Polis

Nor are you, for that matter - you've never even been to this continent, never mind Poland. And the article is written by a Polish citizen who has lived here roughly twice as long as you have been alive.

Interesting though that you think the ethnicity of the writer gives an article 'merit' - there are plenty of articles in the Polish-language press here saying exactly the same thing. Admittedly you wouldn't understand them (and nor would many other people reading this) however very good to hear you say that they have 'merit', Bieggers.
gumishu 11 | 4,993
30 Jan 2016  #9
Looks like you didn't read the article.

prosecutors were not independent in the short history of Polish democracy after the fall of communism (appart from the brief time of PO goverment after 2010) - and they shouldn't as long as they are not elected (like in the US)
OP jon357 63 | 14,110
30 Jan 2016  #10
prosecutors

Again, it looks like you didn't read the article (or the other, even better one) on the same blog.
gumishu 11 | 4,993
30 Jan 2016  #11
appart from the first part the article is biased, manipulative and hysterical
OP jon357 63 | 14,110
30 Jan 2016  #12
That tells us nothing except that as usual, you're insulting anything that doesn't promote a far-right point of view.

We'll dismiss the 'hysterical' comment since it's subjective, we'll dismissed the 'biased' comment since it's an op-ed piece on a blog and doesn't pretend to present every different viewpoint, so let's have a look at 'manipulative'. In what way is this excellent article 'manipulative'?
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
30 Jan 2016  #13
This isn't even a return to the days of the PRL, it's actually something closer to some of the world's worst dictatorships.

LOL ! It's a return to what we had here for most of 27 years post-PRL period, until your beloved previous regime created "independent prosecutors" that did things like sending police to arrest teenagers laughing at politicians. You propagandists have no shame.
Bieganski 17 | 901
30 Jan 2016  #14
Nor are you, for that matter - you've never even been to this continent, never mind Poland.

Yet another admission from you that you know nothing about me.

And the article is written by a Polish citizen who has lived here roughly twice as long as you have been alive.

Oh, so you know the author personally. So why then does this "Polish citizen" (according to you only) post anonymously when criticizing the current elected Government? And why are you promoting on here and not the author of this blog? Are you this "dandy" character?

Indeed, it looks like just another example of anti-Polish astroturfing from non-Poles like yourself.
gumishu 11 | 4,993
30 Jan 2016  #15
In what way is this excellent article 'manipulative'?

in this way : "In fact 5 people are already being investigated for "poorly planning the Smolensk trip". A move likened to prosecuting White Star Line employees for poor route planning on the Titanic's maiden voyage. "

they are not investigated - they stand before a court 'z powództwa cywilnego'
and no preparing a FLIGHT of a PRESIDENT is not in any way similar to planning a route of a passenger BOAT -
OP jon357 63 | 14,110
30 Jan 2016  #16
they are not investigated - they stand before a court 'z powództwa cywilnego'

So in what way is that 'manipulative'?

and no preparing a FLIGHT of a PRESIDENT is not in any way similar to planning a route of a passenger BOAT -

Planning a safe journey for passengers is exactly the same. Clue, you take great care to avoid an accident...

Oh, so you know the author personally.

Yes. For many years

s this "Polish citizen" (according to you only

According to his passport...

And isn't it amusing that a couple of people (with history of this on here) want to criticise a blog, pretending it's 'anti-Polish' when in fact it reflects the views of a huge number of people, perhaps even the majority here in Poland.
gumishu 11 | 4,993
30 Jan 2016  #17
So in what way is that 'manipulative'?

you don't understand a simple explanation it seems

and no arranging flights especially of the head of the state has nothing to do with choosing a route for a steam boat
OP jon357 63 | 14,110
30 Jan 2016  #18
and no arranging flights especially of the head of the state has nothing to do with choosing a route for a steam boat

Nonsense, Gumi. You're just trying to confuse in order to deflect attention from a very valid criticism of the current attacks on justice and on the law here. Especially since you can't criticise the substance, so look for an analogy to whine about....
Bieganski 17 | 901
30 Jan 2016  #19
Yes. For many years

Who is the author then? Why the need for anonymity if, according to you, this blog "...in fact...reflects the views of a huge number of people, perhaps even the majority here in Poland."?
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
30 Jan 2016  #20
current attacks on justice and on the law here.

Foreign dude, these "attacks" were a part of their agenda during the last elections and Polish citizens have spoken giving them victory in free, democratic elections. Why do you hate democracy so much ?
gumishu 11 | 4,993
30 Jan 2016  #21
Especially since you can't criticise the substance, so look for an analogy to whine about.

I have criticised the substance - the Minister of Justice being also the Prosecutor General is nothing new in democratic Poland and no prosecutors should not be independent unless they are elected like in the US - and no so called 'prawniczy autorytet' will make me think differently (I guess they have vested interests in the so called independence of prosecutors)
OP jon357 63 | 14,110
30 Jan 2016  #22
prosecutors should not be independent

They should be completely independent.

The idea of an independent prosecution service (or for that matter an independent anything) is however alien to the PiS cult, as the excellent article shows.
gumishu 11 | 4,993
30 Jan 2016  #23
They should be completely independent.

and become rule unto themselves? no my friend - I will never agree to that (unless they are elected - which means they are controlled by the public)

the current PiS proposition allow the public to control the prosecution through the elected goverment
OP jon357 63 | 14,110
30 Jan 2016  #24
and become rule unto themselves?

That's where clear parameters in the law are important - something that PiS wishes to subvert.

PiS proposition allow the public to control the prosecution through the elected goverment

Given that PiS don't want the public to control the government, but instead believe that they are right regardless of what anyone thinks renders that comment meaningless.
Crow 137 | 7,522
30 Jan 2016  #25
Basically, it opens the doors to the regime using the courts to persecute whoever they want to, and it's one of the most significant attacks on judicial and legal freedom in Europe for decades.

in decades you say?

Let us not take all credit from Serbians, as it was nicely explained by BBC, CNN, DEUTSCHE WELLE etc media. Serbians are far worst
gumishu 11 | 4,993
30 Jan 2016  #26
Given that PiS don't want the public to control the government

sorry Jon - PO and their president shredded 6 millions of votes of support of referendums - this is how PO and the crew imagine public control of goverment and democracy - not to mention that they have stolen over 100 billion PLN from people's retirement fund accounts - PiS goverment is so far very benign in comparison

That's where clear parameters in the law are important

code laws will never forsee all possible complications of real life and is prone to varying interpretations - if prosecutors were independent who would interpret the rules binding them or how will you prevent from siding with one political force say the opposition ?
Ironside 47 | 9,624
30 Jan 2016  #27
This isn't even a return to the days of the PRL, it's actually something closer to some of the world's worst dictatorships.

This is not even an overstatement that is simply a hysterical cry that cannot be further from the truth.
Countries have the right to shape their own internal system in any way they seem fit. The same rule apply to Poland.
All those protests and marches, alleged or implied crimes or whatnot is nothing else but the internal struggle between different fractions and contradictory interests. Need I remind a reader that fraction in charge in Poland at the moment gained their legitimacy from the people by winning the last election. Those who are organizing protests and buying articles in the foreign press directly or indirectly belong to that fraction that lost the last election.

They have no majority they have no popular support in Poland and they have no legs to stand on in their pathetic attempt at destabilizing Poland other than money and support in the mainstream media. Let see for how long they'll able to continue that drama and hysteria against prevalent mood in the country.

Judicial system in Poland according to Polish citizens is not working well. Evidently rather than be an independent judicial system its became in the course of decades to be something else - an uncatchable, unanswerable, unaccountable and evidently corrupt system. A system that more oft than not have seen a mafia people and criminals walking out of jail Scot-free while at the same time innocent people were kept in jail for years without charges being filled against them or due process.
OP jon357 63 | 14,110
30 Jan 2016  #28
Judicial system in Poland according to Polish citizens is not working well. E

And now it's going to be much, much worse...
Braveheart16 16 | 121
30 Jan 2016  #29
I have followed this discussion carefully and would suggest that it is often beneficial to look at how other countries prosecution departments operate. The Crown Prosecution Service in the UK is independent from politicians but are responsible to the Attorney General who oversees the CPS and has a healthy relationship with the Director of Public Prosecutions. (the DPP is a qualified senior lawyer who is appointed to his/her position) Importantly there are many codes (articles if you wish) which explain how prosecutions are commenced and conducted. The Director of Public Prosecutions is impartial and is accountable to the Attorney General. Basically politicians in the UK do not have any influence over who is prosecuted and the important point to make is that prosecutors are required to comply with the code for crown prosecutors which sets out standards on whether there is sufficient evidence to charge someone with an offence. I have attached a link for more information. It seems strange that a politician would have sufficient qualifications to undertake legal decisions on whether someone is arrested and charged with an offence. It would seem more appropriate for a qualified lawyer to take this sort of decision. In the UK the Crown Prosecution Service works closely with the police and this enables a more balanced approach to prosecutions and in the end a more fairer outcome as the CPS will ultimately decide on whether a prosecution can proceed on the evidence provided by police.

cps.gov.uk/about/
gumishu 11 | 4,993
30 Jan 2016  #30
It seems strange that a politician would have sufficient qualifications to undertake legal decisions on whether someone is arrested and charged with an offence.

Politicians in Poland often happen to be lawyers, you know - maybe in a country with a tradition of impartial civil servants it works fine like you describe it but Poland is not a country like that yet and there has to be some overseeing of the work of prosecutors - for me the ideal model is elected prosecutors just like in the US but for now I will gladly settle on a democratically elected government control over prosecution - for your information prosecutors not only can press charges and arrest people with little base but also they can deliberately drop charges or willfully neglect investigations which is actually more probable in Poland - who will make them do they work if they are not controlled - in the case you fear people are going to be charged and arrested without proper reason there is free media in Poland and nothing is going change in that matter


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