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Crucifixes to stay in Polish schools


Ogien 6 | 245
26 Nov 2009 #181
Remember there have been Polish muslims for hundreds of years

About 90% of the Polish population is Catholic. That's a fact straight from the CIA's web site. Poland is a Catholic nation. Enough said.

You're dead wrong about Islam. Look at England for example. More and more restaurants are incorporating Halal. Also, they are opening banks everywhere that follow Sharia Law or whatever the **** it's called.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
26 Nov 2009 #182
Seanus

usnews.com/articles/opinion/2009/02/10/5-most-religious-countries-in-the-world.html

This is a small list of the 5 most religious countries in the world. Seanus, you surely know and appreciate the fact that there is a connection between the development of ppl and the dwindling of religious attendance? If you look at just any country (except maybe for Western Europe), where are ppl the most religious? Correct, in the rural areas, generally the areas that are less developed than the big cities in that particular country.

Why is religion considered irrelevant in developed countries? Well, for a few reasons: 1) time: ppl don't have (or take) the time to visit a church on holy days as they need their time for other stuff; 2) religion is generally to be regarded as a major hindrance to the development of a country - it just doesn't go together: religion is in generally conservative and developement is progressive.

Almost every, if not every, lifesaving medicine, for example, would not exist if the Church had allmighty power still. Many great researchers, scientists, and so on, would have been burned on the stake or being jailed if the Church had almighty powers still. The Church has been a too much dominant factor in many societies and has caused many countries to never get the chance they actually deserved. Many humanists, like yourself, would be called heretics and be burned or something. The Church, even in more recent times, has, or has tried to put a stop on major progression as it conflicts with its own interests. Church, over time has become a sorry institution and hasn't be a representation of all those religious souls who would do blindly what the Church tells them to do. And in fact, religion is something personal, basically one doesn't need a church to be religious. In NL there is a poem (or oneliner) that in translation says: "I am a god in the deepest of my thoughts", which puts into words exactly how religious sensation should be.

You mentioned the Orthodox countries, but be fair: those countries are generally poor as well. Russia, one would say, is an exception, but do you really think those moguls, oilbarons, mobsters and the like, are going to Church because they are religious? Or would it be more for the public eye? And do you really think churchvisit would be as high in big cities like Moskau and St Petersburgh as it would be in rural Russia? I would like to see a chart concerning churchvisit in the Polish rural area compared to the big(ger) Polish cities. Also, I am curious what will happen to it once Poland becomes rich and faring well.

I know I don't go into this as deep as I want to (mainly due to time-reasons), but I am sure you get my point as an extension to my previous statement that religion flourishes in poor countries and poor areas in certain developed countries. And it seems an inadvertible fact that as soon when countries get wealthier, more developed, et cetera, the role of the church is generally coming to an end. Don't get me wrong with this. If somebody wants to be religious, then that is fine with me. I just tried to point out that development and religion simply don't go together.

Concluding: I think that religion will dwindle severely in PL once it's becoming rich and catches on with the West.

More and more restaurants are incorporating Halal.

So far, I've only seen Subway, which has a few restaurants that offer Halal food besides their normal offer.
>^..^<

M-G (coffee)
BrutalButcher - | 391
26 Nov 2009 #183
cheehaw

You're a Christian extremist who is also an anti-semite.

Accept it: There is no room in the new Europe for Christianity. This continent is as secular as it gets and that's why Islam is going to devour Europe. I didn't say it,Bernard Lewis (one stupid ,liberal guy who is sadly, Jewish) claims Europe will be Islamic before the end of this century

ALLAHU AKBAR!
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
26 Nov 2009 #184
BrutalButcher

She said it herself: for 15 years she was lost, probably indulging herself with drugs, alcohol and sex until she found God again and everything turned out allright once more.

At least, that's how it goes in many, if not all, of those "modern" stories of born-again Christians...

Like a former smoker is the most fanaticly anti-smoking activist, born-again Christians are the most extreme in their views. Sad, but true.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
BrutalButcher - | 391
26 Nov 2009 #185
MareGaea

Yeah, same thing happens with all converts.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
26 Nov 2009 #186
A Zionist shouting Allahu Akbar. You are a very confused man, BBut.

M-G, I accept your logic almost completely but I have a simple question. Given that that has always been the case (that they are from rural areas), why do you assume it to be so different now? I don't think you'll find a linear curve without any kinks in the passage through time.

I agree with the Dutch way of thinking. A man in touch with his soul will feel God without any priest and I challenge those who want an argument they can't win. We can never play God but we can feel the presence.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,671
26 Nov 2009 #187
Also, they are opening banks everywhere that follow Sharia Law or whatever the **** it's called.

AN amazing statement that manages to combine vagueness, inaccuracy, unreferenced information and blind ignorance. Well done!!
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
26 Nov 2009 #188
why do you assume it to be so different now?

Different circumstances would be the ocurrence, or the more persistent presence, of media like TV, Radio, Internet, which serves as a means to inform ppl about what's going on in the world outside their window. Remember that in the good old days priests had power over the way ppl thought mainly because they didn't get around or didn't have access to certain sources; often they were the only ones in a small society that could actually read and write and where illiterace rides high, so does the Church as an instance of mindcontrol. I may be putting this down here not in the exact way I mean it, but I think you catch my drift on this one.

To an extend you can see as well that where ppl have less access to information or the world outside their window, religion has to lose ground as the sole indoctrination of ppl.

I will get back on this later, now it's lunchtime :)

>^..^<

M-G (lunch)
Seanus 15 | 19,706
26 Nov 2009 #189
Cheehaw, you are telling me that there is no critical difference between a Catholic and a Protestant? Wow, what a great reason to have a Catholic/Protestant divide in Belfast :( Your sticker is green and mine is blue so let's attack each other, LOL. Pitiful!
ChrisPoland 2 | 123
26 Nov 2009 #190
I can give you the perspective of a parent with a child in school in Poland.

First, I feel that church and state should be separate. My parents wanted me to receive a Catholic education so they sent me to private Catholic school and to catechism at church. I think those were the proper places for my religious instruction.

My daughter has just started "school". It is pre-school which starts from age 3. At the 1st parents/teachers meeting, we were informed that if we wanted our kids to attend Religia that we would have to sign them up. We didn't. Later on, we were asked by the Dyrektorka to write a declaration that we DO NOT want our child to attend. We did it. This week, we were told that the classroom teacher also needs an original declaration that we do not want our child to attend Religia. I think that they are trying to pressure us into allowing our child to attend because they have to do something with her during that lesson...or maybe they want to save her soul ;)

For those readers who may still be unaware, Religia in Polish schools is Catechism not Religions (of the world). Even though the teachers insist the lessons are very fun and general, it is still Catechism. At the first lesson they were taught the sign of the cross (the father, son, holy spirit, amen) and that good little boys and girls go to church.

It is true that Religia is optional. She does not have to go and she is not the only one who does not attend. In fact, a lot of kids do not attend. But someone said this is a majority/minority issue - I don't agree. This is a separation of church and state issue and even further a separate but equal issue. My daughter and the other children are given care during the Religia equal to the kids who attend Religia, but already the opt-outs are showing signs of feeling worse than the other kids. Some readers may not care, saying kids have to toughen up and learn about real life, but when it is your kid and it is about such a personal issue as religion, you may understand me a little better.

As a note, many parents who want their children to have religious instruction at school have decided not to send their children as the school could not provide any information about the person providing the instruction nor could they provide a program of instruction for the year.

There are not any crucifixes in the pre-school.

kielbasastories.blogspot.com
southern 75 | 7,096
26 Nov 2009 #191
It is true that Religia is optional.

In Greece it is obligatory and the teachers who teach it are dressed like priests in school.It is also taught throughout secondary education till you become 18 years old.There are exams at the end with questions like what does the crucification of Jesus prove,what does the crucification mean etc and a lot of theological issues.They also teach what are the differences with Catholics and Protestants and why Orthodoxism is the true religion.

I remember an atheist student who to the exams question what does the Apocalypse mean for the modern man answered:in my opinion the Apocalypse does not mean anything at all for the modern man.

This student was banned for 5 days from school.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
26 Nov 2009 #192
Seanus

One can even more simplify it to its purest and most primitive form: it's simply a matter of "us" against "them". It's the basis for all hatred in this world as we are, no matter how we like to think different, still the same primitive creatures as those that live in caves and are afraid of thunder and things we cannot explain and beating up ppl we don't know. So we invented gods to explain them, but then different groups started to invent different gods and the so the who circus starts all over again: "our god is better than your god". And if religion is replaced with something else, it will be the same all over again and again and again. And it will remain until there are not ppl left on Earth, when Mother Earth has enough of all the BS and decides to end the joke that is called "Humans".

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Seanus 15 | 19,706
26 Nov 2009 #193
True enough but you must admit that a clubbing together kind of mentality has been pervasive. As the world becomes more in danger through religious extremism, we side with our own and increase the base.

Caves? Aren't you thinking of those fictional bearded folk? ;) ;)
cheehaw 2 | 263
26 Nov 2009 #194
Cheehaw, you are telling me that there is no critical difference between a Catholic and a Protestant? Wow, what a great reason to have a Catholic/Protestant divide in Belfast :( Your sticker is green and mine is blue so let's attack each other, LOL. Pitiful!

But you are talking politics, and I am talking faith.

Politics and faith don't really mix. Expect problems.

It's been a REALLY long time since I looked into the catholic/protestant irish thing. Sin fein, the irish defense groups, all of that. But if I remember correctly.. the protestants pretty much came from England, the native irish populations were heavily discriminated against.. under British rule to force ireland into the empire .. were kept from jobs etc.. ended up up in dire poverty because they were irish and catholic.. .. we could go to the famines that never really were etc.. This is all so much more about politics and British subjection of the Irish than faith.

I don't know.. faith wise.. from my perspective I don't see all that much difference between the church of england that calls itself protestant and the catholic church under the pope in Ireland. They seem very similar, catechisms, sacraments, etc.. I am sure though I don't know all the details of the anglican church either.. that one I have never visited, just read about here and there. But historically, England has gone back and forth on the issue of catholic/protestant during the past 400-500 years, depending who sat on the throne. Bloody Mary and that aftermath is even the reason a lot of the protestant pilgrims originally came to America.

As a note, many parents who want their children to have religious instruction at school have decided not to send their children as the school could not provide any information about the person providing the instruction nor could they provide a program of instruction for the year.

I can understand that would be a big concern. Considering history, you never know when someone is going to come along and start using religion to assert their political views and agendas.

I have always kind of felt (as an adult, as a child I didn't comprehend the issue) that my Polish family's reverence of the pope is more than just a little bit misguided. I'm pretty sure, but not absolutely certain, that if I had stuck with that mindset I would have never gotten saved.

I've had one issue since I was kid that has made me question things along these lines.. when I was 7 or so.. my mom bought me a children's bible.. this big thick thing.. she didn't want to buy it for me.. I insisted.. it was illustrated real pretty.. catholics don't always read the bible keep that in mind.. (my sister bought my grandmother, at age 75 or so, her first bible, as an example) they learn catechism.. anyway.. shortly after I read that, and I did love it.. it was only NT, not much OT in there.. I had a couple really weird experiences.. I saw this ghost in my bedroom at night, twice, wearing a monks robe, a dark brown.. and when the thing looked at me, under the hood there was no face, just a very black space.. which struck as me as very evil. So I grew up sort of thinking, there must be lots of priests and popes in hell. And you couldn't shake that from me because of that ghost.. But at the same time, I looked for God because I needed answers. Kind of haunted me all my young life, that experience. Today though, I realize, in any church, there are good leaders and bad leaders.

God is real MareGaea, He isn't a figment of anyone's imagination, but many people like to imagine that as truth.. it's a lie though.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
26 Nov 2009 #195
I don't intend to discuss politics then. My intention was to discuss faith. My question to you is, 'what are the central tenets of each faith?'. Are you aware of the theological differences and are they of any real significance?
cheehaw 2 | 263
26 Nov 2009 #196
Well of course, Seanus, acutely aware.

But those tenets are only truly applicable to people who do not really seek God. they go to church on sunday, they sit in the pews, they absorbs stuff like sponges, they never think for themselves.

You are going to find that everywhere, in every religion, in every church, even among athiests.

in essence what I am trying to say, is that a person, no matter their church or even religious background, when they seek God,, they find him, and none of that matters anymore. But.. these people still go to church.. so you cannot look a at church of any denomination and say.. oh, these people are fools. it just doesn't work that way.

faith is very individual matter.. grouping all people of a denomination into a category of left, right, wrong, right.. doesn't work.

Go, Seanus, visit the churches like I have.. sit with the people get to know them, who they are.. you will see what i have seen.. good people, bad people, everywhere.. all mixed together. basically you have to let faith into the picture here and understand that God will work this out for those who truly seek Him.

Give the Catholic church credit they are due Seanus.. the strength (and numbers) of that organization, for better or worse depending on the year.. has nonetheless held communities together and maintained the faith during times of hardship like they have seen in Poland, Russia etc. Even Cuba, strong catholic faith there. There is something about this organization that works really well here and there throughout history.

Not certain i can put my finger on it perfectly exactly at the moment yet though. Send me some ideas! I just know what I see, it's undeniable.

You know, for all the bad things we could say about the church.. also, much of europe's (and America's freedom) is due to the catholic church.. protestantism came later and elaborated that in matters of faith, and freedom to worship. Especially for women.. who were treated as chattle during the time of Christ.. by jews.. by muslims still today.. at the time of Christ.. the jews were actually even debating as to whether or not women even had souls. Christianity is descended from judaism, minus the teachings of the Talmud. If it were not for the Catholic church.. and the insistence on certain values.. women everywhere might be wearing burkas today. which obviously would affect every other sector of society.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
26 Nov 2009 #197
As the world becomes more in danger through religious extremism, we side with our own and increase the base.

One can draw a parallel with ancient Japan. Hopelessly divided and in a nearly constant state of war between the several tribes. Yet, when some foreign invader came and attacked the islands, they let go of their differences, bounded together and repelled the enemy, only to start fighting among eachother again :) But in general, it's usual that internal differences disappear when faced with a common enemy. I happens everywhere.

God is real

If he is real, then he must be some bloodthirsty mofo, excuse my expression. If he is all about love, peace and understanding, why then did he let the massive killing of Jews, Poles and Ukrainians happen (just to name a few hot examples on this forum)? Most of these ppl were godfearing creatures, yet there was no thunderbolt coming from the skies to make the perpetrators vanish. Was it to punish them? Well, tens of millions of deaths is one hell of a punishment. He could've stopped it at any time when he saw the joke was getting out of hand. But nothing happened. To be honest, this is one of the reasons why I don't believe there is a god. Be this a white, brown, black, yellow, purple or green god.

>^..^<

M-G (man is master of his own destiny)
yehudi 1 | 432
26 Nov 2009 #198
God is real MareGaea, He isn't a figment of anyone's imagination

In this one point I can finally agree with cheehaw.
cheehaw 2 | 263
26 Nov 2009 #199
If he is real, then he must be some bloodthirsty mofo, excuse my expression.

No, He's not, not at all, quite the opposite. God is love, really.. you know, and this the big thing.. when people get saved especially at the first moment when God, through Jesus btw, reveals himself.. His spirit, this massive thing that literally shakes the house.. he is Love. and Life.. Peace .. using CAPS for a reason..awesome amazing. no human words to describe it.. not in our vocabulary.. not human.. but an experience many humans have had, with God.. Jesus.

The bloodshed, that is a human thing. when man tries to play God, lots of trouble.

I'm real sure God was there for lots of people, moving them out of the way of trouble. He has done it for me a few times in my life as well. That, is a relationship with Him you need to establish.. takes time, perseverance, and the word you hate most, faith. Faith.. to trust Him even when things don't seem to make sense to us.
yehudi 1 | 432
26 Nov 2009 #200
but an experience many humans have had, with God.. Jesus.

This may not be the place for this comment, but I give it a go:
You equate jesus and god. How did christianity ever get to that conclusion? As I understand it, the first christians believed that Jesus was the Messiah, the anointed one. Then he was referred to as the son of god. What was probably a figurative concept then became taken literally and christians thought that G-d actually fathered a son somehow (an idea the first jewish christians could not possibly have accepted). Then at some point christians began equating Jesus and god, as you do here. You say that jesus is god. How can a person believe in the old testament and believe that jesus, a person, is god?

Since this is a forum about poland, feel free to ignore this post. I just wanted to share my thoughts.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
27 Nov 2009 #201
That's a fair point, yehudi. People like joining the dots in the Bible but won't take on the key issues like the one you have raised. It's the classic tangible Vs intangible question. Debates still rage on amongst Protestants and Catholics as to the nature of Sola Scriptura, the Council of Trent and the Catechisms. There is some agreement as can be seen in debates between a leading Catholic and Protestant scholar on an American talk show.

However, I haven't heard of any theological discussion on the point you raised.
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389
27 Nov 2009 #202
Hey, Cosmopolitans!...We Take Down the Crucifix and Put These Up!!!

AF
Seanus 15 | 19,706
27 Nov 2009 #203
The Soviet anchor, LOL. I have nothing against English people per se but my Polish neighbours were looking at the photos from my bro's wedding and were commenting on how fine a typical 'English' family looked. I quickly asked them about their Russian ancestry and that got them thinking. I explained the folly of their ways to them.

I think some people need some crosses here.
cheehaw 2 | 263
27 Nov 2009 #204
This may not be the place for this comment, but I give it a go:

well, likewise, I give it a go.. don't expect perfection on this because I cannot aptly describe the experience of being in his presence.. etc that stuff.

There are for sure, indications in the OT of a son, some son, in Isaiah we see this most notably.. you can go straight to genesis even.. and say.. if you believe that God created man, how much of a leap is it to say, He would send his son, or even have a son, or a few or more.. not of this earth.. in the OT in Job for instance.. we hear tales of the 'sons of God' and angels.. some have fallen, a third of them leaving.. 2 thirds are still with God.. we even hear of the daughters of God briefly.. so right off if you question that God has A son (not to mention many sons of God).. you are arguing with scripture..that's your choice.. I choose not to go there at this stage of my career.. We hear of angels being sent to Abraham to warn of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.. even they walked the earth as men.. I'll let you take that from there as that should be obvious enough and head in the right direction for more clues as to 'son' or 'sons' from on high.

Is Jesus God himself// some say yes.. I question that.. only sort of.. he is God.. in that the spirit of God is very strong with him.. a consuming fire if you will..major powerful.. not human.. really powerful spirit.. getting saved and being in his presence leaves no doubt of that.. an awakening moment.. pretty cool.. as Christians we are not really ever taught that Jesus IS God, the father himself.. though some do preach that, it's not really biblical, or strict doctrine.. we are taught however that Jesus is our mediator with God. And there is absolutely no doubt about that in my mind.

your own people say God stopped talking to man a long time ago.. some christians say it too.. i would agree.. but now he sends Jesus.. Yashua Hamashiach.. and He did not stop listening to our prayers.. even the blood crying out etc.. he has not stopped intervening.. but instead of meeting man like He met met Moses, now Jesus is the one He sends. And there appears to be an awful lot of authority vested in this guy Jesus.. because honestly, his presence sends you straight to your knees.

and you will never doubt again. takes about 5 seconds for that amazing insight, all the questions about God you ever had, to be answered.. to take place. It's just a shortened thing when we say Jesus is God.. what's usually meant is.. the authority of God.. Including an awesome amount of his power, glory and grace. He may have been born and walked this earth.,. but the invisible guy that saved me.. is not human.

Felt his hands on me a few times too through the process.. like a person standing right next to me.. I was one of those people who said.. i am a good person.. what sin.. how much sin do i have ( i could name a few things that's all).. you know what he did to me in my obstinance? He put his hand on my head. It felt it just like a human hand on my head.. I am sitting there saying to myself.. this is not real.. not happening.. I swear.. his hand on my head and my entire life flashes before my eyes in a few minutes time.. he shows me lots of sin..

I repented indeed. He is God. Or of God.. or very close, whichever you prefer I really don't think the details of that truly matter one little bit, as God sends him to us to do His will.

I have read here and there in Christian doctrine that Jesus is our judge, he comes to judge. I think there may be some of that in Isaiah as well. And it very much describes my experience. better to be judged, and forgiven by Jesus I am real sure, than to face the judgement seat of God as simply a righteous man. In his presence.. my life.. felt like nothing.. he is much more alive than we are.. his spirit exudes life. fills the room.. He imparts certain things of that to us also. if anything ails you.. you get healed in his presence. amazing. you're never the same after that.

Yes, he is God. Maybe not directly the father.. but so close..
BrutalButcher - | 391
27 Nov 2009 #205
A Zionist shouting Allahu Akbar. You are a very confused man, BBut.

And you are a very stupid one. I am free to shout "Allahu akbar" and mock the terrorists by doing so.
I am sure you have never seen Jewish comedians imitating nazis...your ignorance disgusts me, really.

And to that guy who asked why "G-d lets people get killed". Well, why should G-d solve the problems we start?
Moreover, Mankind has given up G-d for the sake of "development" and technology and whatnot. You kick your Christian god out of your schools, goverments and society and you expect him to take care of the problems you make? Get a brain.
cheehaw 2 | 263
27 Nov 2009 #206
You're a Christian extremist who is also an anti-semite.

It would appear that way.. I have no argument with your opinion.

Except that I am a Christian extremist.. umm.. not really, not even close. But your own views are rather extreme I do have to say.

Try using a mirror and call the spade a spade.

I have a great respect for Torah following jews.. have no doubt. You.. are obviously not one of them.

your people are actually... these people.. born of the same the same muslim dirt you mock in every way shape and form. Even real jews call your kind interlopers and usurpers.

timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3499122.ece

and this thing your people are trying to enable.. the destruction of Christian europe.. is going to turn around and bite you so hard in the ass you won't recall your mother's name. Much less your zionism. and the rest of the world will be quite happy to forget it too.

Christianity will not die.. we know our God. You.. are completely lost.
BrutalButcher - | 391
27 Nov 2009 #207
cheehaw

Real jews? bad jews? You dislike both of them. You claim Jews are trying to destroy Christian Europe...for how many centuries have you, extremist Christians, said the same thing?

Was it us that started with secularism and the multi-cultural thing? Nope. I am sure you vote for left-wing parties that let mosques be built and so on.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
27 Nov 2009 #208
There is much religious activity, or should I say activity taken in the name of religion, that goes on behind the scenes. Leo Zagami, a bit of a wacko, discusses it but I have doubts as to his 33rd-level mason credentials. Nutter!! The former SG of the World Jewish Congress said that the Holocaust was payback by the Catholics against the Jews. That's just incitement in my eyes.

We have to see through the haze created by others and look at things as factually as we can.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
27 Nov 2009 #209
Is the symbol of European culture to be the guillotine or the cross? Aggressive French llaïcité in the past has included priests having their cassocks torn off in the streets. How about tearing the gold crosses off women's (and some men's) necks. It may have a religious significance to some and not just be a fashion symbol, so just to be on the safe side, off it comes!

Someone on PF said if Muslim scarves are banned in French schools, then crosses should be removed as well. But is it proper to strip youngsters of symbols their tradition holds dear, be they muslim, Judaeic or Christian?

The advent of aggressive secularism has parallelled the overall decline in public morality (shop-lifting, white-collar crime, family break-up, lying, calumny, drugs, vandalism, etc., so why deify and absolutise it to such an obsessive degree?!?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
27 Nov 2009 #210
BBut, you show some good insights but you'd find pride of place in one of my lowest classes. You resort to insults which is a bad start. I'm not into that fanatical nonsense that you are. If you want to praise Zionists and shout Allahu Akbar, go and do it in the ME and not in a thread about Catholicism which you seem to know diddly squat about.


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