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Crucifixes to stay in Polish schools


mbiernat 3 | 107
1 Dec 2009 #301
Poland has a unique culture, why do we have to make the world one political correct post modern society. Crosses should stay. I hope they do and this, with many other countless positive things make Poland unique.
TheOther 5 | 3,872
1 Dec 2009 #302
G.W.B. was a wise president.

LOL, an ex-alcoholic who believed that God gives him orders? Quite frightning that this guy was the most powerful man on Earth, don't you think?

guardian.co.uk/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa
frd 7 | 1,399
1 Dec 2009 #303
My only point is that you incorrectly approached the meaning

I think you haven't read my posts because you would have noticed that I focused my dislike on Church's approach nothing else. You've just read what you wanted and brushed the rest under the carpet. I can add that your sermon about symbols of other nations has got nothing to do with what I said, but I admire your vivid imagination.
southern 75 | 7,096
1 Dec 2009 #304
Yes,but during his presidency the man and the fish did coexist peacefully.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
1 Dec 2009 #305
Very good point, Swede in Poland. Add 1 million to the unemployment figures and they'd jump quite a bit. It has been going up incrementally at 0.1% every month for the last 4 months. Can you imagine if 500,000 returned? That'd distort the figures rather drastically.

Then they'd need their crosses ;) ;)
Mr Grunwald 19 | 1,542
2 Dec 2009 #306
Then they'd need their crosses ;) ;)

It would been rather entertaining when an British muslim living in UK for a long time comes to a Polish school get's a ladder and tries to take down the cross, omg it would been sooo unique:)
Steveramsfan 2 | 306
2 Dec 2009 #307
Poland is Christian it should keep Crucifixes in the classroom and teach about the countries main Religion.

I was taught only the Christian religions at school but I learned about the other religions myself because I wanted to.

Multiculturalism is B*!!*ks. Do the Taliban teach Christian religions in school? Does Saudi Arabia teach Christian religions in school?
ChrisPoland 2 | 123
9 Dec 2009 #308
Correction to my post: There are crucifixes in our Pre-school. The shipment of crosses just arrived and they are now hanging on the wall along with the crowned eagle and the children's art projects.
Olaf 6 | 956
24 Feb 2010 #309
If they want to stick to religion in Polish suposedly secular country there should also be other symbols, but let the crucifix be e.g. 5 cm bigger than other emblems, as Christianity has been imposed in Poland for 1044 years now (so that's 0.05 mm for every year). I propose Flying Spaghetti Monster and Cthulhu along with it. Bocononism also goes a long way!
anton888 - | 82
24 Feb 2010 #310
Multiculturalism is B*!!*ks. Do the Taliban teach Christian religions in school? Does Saudi Arabia teach Christian religions in school?

This is so good that someone finally agree that Poland is no different than those countries. I notice this for a while but when I read posts saying that Poland is European, well educated and Poles happily join force with the traditional western 'white' european in looking down on people in different race or religion, calling them 3rd world low lifes dispite that fact in other post, these allies sometimes suggest Poles are part of those ppl entering their countries for benefits). I started to confuse. But thanks for confirming that actually Poland belongs to another 'family' that they tried hard to deny.
hague1cameron - | 85
24 Feb 2010 #311
it is sad for such a country that put one steap ahead (by socialism experience though not perfect)

Ignorance is bliss, it's religion that helped with the former and now you want to do away with it.
Arien 3 | 721
24 Feb 2010 #312
Who cares? Your whole Bible is filled with lies, and even children have been abused within the Church. You're free to believe what you want to believe, but in this day and age people should really learn to accept eachother, and ofcourse you don't really need the Church to do that.

Wearing a cross or attending Church doesn't prove you're a Christian, and performing lip-service doesn't prove you're a Christian either. Most people who call themselves Christians aren't really Christians anyway, simply because most of them don't live by their own rules, and most of them don't practice what they preach.

Most people attend Church simply because the rest does it. (And not necessarily because they believe in it!) They're afraid of their own community, and they're afraid to be different. I see religion as a form of manipulative psychology, a tool to oppress people through irrational fear. Fear of the unknown. I also see it as a form of fascism, because its ideology expects all people to think and talk the same, which will never happen, which ofcourse causes all kinds of conflicts and social problems between people.

You're allowed to strongly disagree with me, but please do try to remember I'm not trying to insult you personally. It is simply how I see religion. I think our history has proven that nothing good will come of it a thousand times over already.

:)
Olaf 6 | 956
24 Feb 2010 #313
@Arien:

That is bold to write. But it is also very true and accurate.
Olaf 6 | 956
27 Feb 2010 #314
Gaa:
90% of people in Poland claim to be christians so i don't think crosses are a problem for them

Fake Christians. Trust me.... COMPLETELY FAKE CHRISTIANS.

What about the suposed 10% then? It is much less than 90% of real believers as the oficial doctrine of the Church allows no exceptions or open-mindness and not many people manage to act according to it; fake followers as said above, but not many people do something with that as the procedure of "signing-out from the club" is deliberately complicated and priests most often refuse to give the confirmation documents after aposthasia. Hence the big error in statistics. The other reason is the pressure of Polish almost-homogeneous society.

You would see better how many real believers roman catholic church has in Poland if tax was imposed on them. You declare your creed - you pay "subscription fee" in tax. So far EVERYONE has to pay for the roman catholic church even if they are e.g. muslim or atheist in Poland.

Cannot it be separated? Let's use some commercial terms: You pay for the service you use, and you should choose which one you want from the providers on the market. Or not choose any. In this case it is the service of connecting you with your god. Other christian creeds for example do not require brokers [meaning the Church or priests]for connecting. It is like forcing somebody to go only to Biedronka stores even though you had indigestion and diarhea after eating crapy food you had to buy there. And you can't stop leaving your money there. What if you want to shop at Tesco or Bomi? Or even... make your own food, huh?

(I hope some of you will grab at least a thread of humor in this if not, sorry)







Arien 3 | 721
27 Feb 2010 #315
It is much less, fake followers as said above, but not many people do something with that as the procedure of "signing-out from the club" is deliberately complicated and priests most often refuse to give the confirmation documents after aposthasia. Hence the big error in statistics.

In a lot of cases this is very true, even I am still signed up as a Protestant, but I can assure you my ideas have next to nothing in common with religion. I did some weird things in a period of intense confusion, but after this period, it all started to make perfect sense to me.

The other reason is the pressure of Polish almost-homogeneous society.

Undoubtedly. All I will say is that if only a few people could muster up enough courage to go their own way, more and more will follow. Just look at Holland, we were a very religious nation (Seemingly!) only two and a half decades ago. Most of our churches are empty these days, and most of our people find truth in philosophy, science, simple facts of life, logical reasoning and common sense.

Most people treat eachother with respect for eachother's individuality now, and we don't have all those religious problems anymore. (All the bickering between Protestants and Catholics for example.) A lot of our older folks are still trying to impose their beliefs on us, but our younger generations aren't having it. Most of just want to be free people, and treat eachother as free people. I guess that's why we're so concerned about the wave of Muslim immigrants, because we know what their ideology represents. (Intolerance.)

I hope some of you will grab at least a thread of humor in this if not, sorry.

I see your point, and I'm sure many others do, albeit silently in some cases, so don't worry yourself about that. I'm sure some people would find your way of wording insulting, but then again, most of those people who would take offense, would probably find everything you say insulting, simply because it's not what they wanted to read.

I think people who are afraid need other people who feel afraid to feel better. Maybe a shared burden is half the burden, as they say. I'd like to help people who are afraid of the unknown, so I'm not going to show them any misplaced hatred or even treat them with anger, but I will keep speaking my mind in all honesty.

I'm open to the idea of a God, but I really don't believe he/she/it wrote the Bible, or even told people how to live their lives. I know we all have our own free will as individuals, and we all have our own ideas and feelings, and I believe we do for a reason. If God is unconditional love, then no one should have to be afraid, because all will be forgiven. (If there's anything wrong with anything we choose to do in the first place!)

We have laws, and we have human rights. Live and let live?

:)
Olaf 6 | 956
27 Feb 2010 #316
An open mind you have. That goes a long way. I admire that.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
27 Feb 2010 #317
and even children have been abused within the Church.

As always atheists must bring this issue, thier "wunderwaffe"... Children have been abused by Christians, Jews, Muslims, atheists, teachers, policemen, engineers, bankers, jobless, priests, rabbis, immams, rich, poor, women, men, white, black, yellow...

but in this day and age people should really learn to accept eachother

Who cares? Your whole Bible is filled with lies

A great example of overwhelming acceptance indeed :) But that's nothing unusual, generally the people, who scream the loudest for tolerance, acceptance etc. tend to be very intolerant.

I think our history has proven that nothing good will come of it a thousand times over already.

Our history is proving that abandoning religion leads to nothing good, Soviet Union or Holland being examples.
Crow 137 | 7,755
27 Feb 2010 #318
what i (personally) heard from some Russians, they are more and more happy to see Poland as stubborn in her Catholicism. i suppose, Russians prefer Catholic then Islamic (or atheist) Poland as partner for communication

How ironic. Now when Islam/globalism threaten on the wings of EU agenda, Russians learned to respect Polish choice, even to be satisfy with it
Olaf 6 | 956
27 Feb 2010 #319
Our history is proving that abandoning religion leads to nothing good, Soviet Union or Holland being examples.

- An example for what? Is Holland a bad example? Poland could really use some of Holland's liberal attitudes (some, not all maybe, but that is another topic). And as far as fair attitude towards religion is concerned, Holland compared to Poland is eons ahead [even though the difference between them is only two letters;)]
Arien 3 | 721
27 Feb 2010 #320
As always atheists must bring this issue, thier "wunderwaffe"... Children have been abused by Christians, Jews, Muslims, atheists, teachers, policemen, engineers, bankers, jobless, priests, rabbis, immams, rich, poor, women, men, white, black, yellow...

I'm not denying this, and like it or not, you're actually illustrating my point. My whole point is that people are people, wether they call themselves Christians or Muslims doesn't change anything. That's the actual point I'm trying to make here. I'm not singling out one particular religion.

A great example of overwhelming acceptance indeed :)

Nice try, but I do accept people who have a belief. Because a belief is personal. You're allowed to believe, and you're allowed to talk about it. I simply oppose the religious aspect, which is basically a form of fascism. I don't think it's a complete mystery to most people that religion imposes its ideas on people. Often the church convinces the community, and then uses the community to pressure people to believe in their ways.

I don't pressure anyone. I simply speak my mind, and I discuss these things in all honesty, and I'm also more than honest enough about my own shortcomings. I don't claim to have all the answers, I don't claim to know it all. Do you see the difference between having faith, and having a religion? I accept everyone.

But that's nothing unusual, generally the people, who scream the loudest for tolerance, acceptance etc. tend to be very intolerant.

I'm as tolerant as a human being can be. I will never judge anyone, but religious people? They call everyone who doesn't see it their way a devil worshipper, a servant of Satan, corrupted, evil, wrong or sinful. Should I promote such tolerance? How about Gays or Lesbians? They are human beings too! Or how about people who like sex with a lot of people? Does the church accept or even tolerate those people? I'm tolerant, and that's why I oppose religion. I don't oppose people who have faith in something, and I don't stigmatize people for having a personal belief. I oppose fascism, collective thinking, mass-hysteria and the social stigmatizing of innocent people.

It's interesting you didn't quote anything from my other posting though, because you can clearly read there how I feel about having faith, and I know what unconditional love really means. I hope you understand that in my personal conviction, there's a huge difference between religion and belief. Belief should be something personal. Belief should be about tolerating, accepting and forgiving. Belief should be about understanding our own human nature, instead of condemning and judging ourselves.

You could do some research for yourself, and look it up in the Nag Hammadi.. You can find a quote there, from early Christian texts, which reads: There is no sin. Do you know who supposedly said that? Jesus supposedly said that. (I say supposedly, because I don't know, because I was born in 1980, and not in the year 0. I wasn't there. I don't know. God never told me anything either.) I prefer to keep things simple and down to earth, which is exactly why I don't claim to have the absolute truth.

:)
Olaf 6 | 956
28 Feb 2010 #321
collective thinking, mass-hysteria

You just wrote the foundation for a religion! Along with the above is also conformism.
Matowy - | 295
28 Feb 2010 #322
Our history is proving that abandoning religion leads to nothing good, Soviet Union or Holland being examples.

Is that a joke? There are many secular nations out there that have high standards for economy and quality of life. The Netherlands, France, Belgium, United Kingdom, Ireland, Sweden, Germany, Norway, Finland, Canada, Denmark, Malaysia, Israel, Iceland... and that is just off the top of my head. Sweden is the prime example, as it is the most rich, happiest, successful, well-educated country in the world, and also the most secular.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,877
28 Feb 2010 #323
Yes, the most religious countries...like....say...with taliban rule...are so progressive and successful, aren't they!
Arien 3 | 721
1 Mar 2010 #324
Along with the above is also conformism.

I think everyone already knows that there are no two people who think and talk or even behave the exact same way. (Isn't the whole idea of conformism laughable if you think about it?)

Sweden is the prime example, as it is the most rich, happiest, successful, well-educated country in the world, and also the most secular.

I'm sure Sweden has its problems aswell, but I agree. I advise people to study their own history before they tell everyone their nation has always been Christian, because most people in Europe have never really accepted Christianity as their way of life, and I guess they never really did. I guess I would like to break the silence for the Polish people who feel the same way, because I'm absolutely certain there are many people who do feel the same way..

You're completely free to believe what you want to believe in ofcourse, just keep in mind that I'm also free to believe in what I want.

:)
Olaf 6 | 956
1 Mar 2010 #325
A Swedish guy once said to me when we were discussing a similar topic that "The Church in Sweden has gone bankrupt... a thousand years ago". He might ahave put it well, anyway well enough that I still remember it.
Arien 3 | 721
1 Mar 2010 #326
Yes, the most religious countries...like....say...with taliban rule...are so progressive and successful, aren't they!

Yes, let's stone everyone who doesn't believe in Jesus to death, that will ensure intellectual progression!

;)
Steveramsfan 2 | 306
2 Mar 2010 #327
If you are baptised into a Christian religion you are a Christian, you cant be a fake Christian. You don't have to believe in the religion anymore but you are still a Christian unless you renounce it.

I believe in God but not in religion, religion is man made and controlled by man. You can follow what Jesus and the other prophets were supposed to have said without following the religions. Religion just causes problems, having no religion does not cause problems.

The Soviets and Nazi's abolished religion because it was a threat to them. Not having religion did not cause Nazism and Communism to begin.

Anybody who takes offence to any religious symbol is just crazy.

Christian schools should be allowed to have crucifixes displayed but if someone asks for a different religious symbol to be displayed that should be displayed too.

The Bible is not lies its just "Chinese Whispers" The old testament talks about things that are pre written language, before writing everything was passed orally as stories.
Olaf 6 | 956
3 Mar 2010 #328
If you are baptised into a Christian religion you are a Christian, you cant be a fake Christian. You don't have to believe in the religion anymore but you are still a Christian unless you renounce it.

If by renouncing you mean apostasia then ok, but by any way it is not possible to CANCEL baptism. Anyway it's not like it is a burden, but why the heck do it to completly unaware babies, that cannot make a conscious decision, why not wait till they can reason? Oh, I know! Because a dezen or two of indoctrination started from the earliest days can soften anyone and make pron to ANY bulls**t you can make up!

God but not in religion

- its connected, or you create your own lifestyle on it and that is where you can say there's as many religions as people on this black hole of existence we call Earth.

You can follow what Jesus and the other prophets were supposed to have said without following the religions.

I don't think you can. No one knows anymore who said what. Many translations, mistakes, cut out parts etc. just because they were not so convenient with "the official" doctrine. Why is Judas book not included? And as far as I recall there were some others - and no, I did not watch DaVinci Code:). I read Judas's book for example.

having no religion does not cause problems.

Bull's eye! We have examples of countries based on religion and I reckon none of you would like the benefits and level of freedom offered in Saudi Arabia or Taliban Afghanistan etc.

different religious symbol to be displayed that should be displayed too.

Why put any symbol? Do we need a parade of symbols? If you have it in your heart why you need it on every wall etc?

I guess we've exploited the subject.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
12 Mar 2010 #329
Are you cross? ;)
grethomory 1 | 154
21 Mar 2010 #330
Jews have historically cursed Him, and called Him a bastard...

But doesn't "The Bible" say that Jews are God's chosen people?


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