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Who controls Gazeta Wyborcza??


goofy_the_dog
31 Aug 2012  #1
"The family lived in an elegant building surrounded by trusted party comrades and secret police elites on the aleja Przyjaciol in Warsawa. Wprost (To the Point), Nov. 22, 1991.

His brother, Stefan, was a soviet judge, who was one of the most active judges to sentence to death persons who were completely innocent, even officers much higher in rank than he. For doing what was expected of him, he advanced to the rank of captain at the early age of 27. Many of his victims were later exonerated. These fabricated verdicts for a death sentence were pronounced on patriots such as Mjr. Z. Machalla, Col. M. Chojecki, Mjr. J. Lewandowski, Col. S. Wecki, Mjr. Z. Tarasiewicz, and others. Michnik justified the death sentences passed by his brother by saying that "Stefan was a 20-some-year-old who did not understand much about what was happening." But he was mature enough to know that this gave him a lightning chance to accelerate his career.

Some may say it is not right to charge a son for the deeds of his family. Yes, I would abstain from this introduction if Adam Michnik admitted the truth about his family and did not white wash the three of them. He took the name of his mother, "Michnik" rather than be a "Szechter." According to one researcher, it is most likely that because of his past, Szechter was not offered high functions in the party. Michnik would have us believe that his father no longer believed in communism. He goes on to say that his father's outlook was anti-communistic, anti-soviet. But Szechter did, in fact, join the communist party after the war. When Fr. Tischner , a Solidarity priest, asked Michnik whether or not he was a believer, Michnik said that he "absolutely did not believe, he just rationalized that nothing could be done about communism... In fact, it was from his father that he received "a strong anti-regime shot." I guess that is what propelled Michnik to join the communist boy scouts which were modeled on the Soviet Pioneers."

What do you think?

Cheers
Harry
31 Aug 2012  #2
What do you think?

That this thread needs to go straight in the bin. No news, no politics, just the same old tired bollocks from people who cannot forgive Michnik for being a Jew and not doing exactly what the Dear Leader tells him to.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,625
31 Aug 2012  #3
What do you think?

I think it's rather strange that someone living in London should be so obsessed with Gazeta Wyborcza.

Some may say it is not right to charge a son for the deeds of his family. Yes, I would abstain from this introduction if Adam Michnik admitted the truth about his family and did not white wash the three of them.

Michnik will do it when Jaroslaw Kaczynski does it. After all, Kaczynski's father was a treasonous bastard.

Anyway, when you get locked up for years as a political prisoner and do half of what Michnik did for Poland, then you can talk.
InWroclaw 89 | 1,915
31 Aug 2012  #4
If Michnik was anti-comm (although his parents were comms?) and spent (how many?) years in prison for opposing comms, why do some political parties (perhaps P i S, am not sure) not much like his newspaper and not much like him?

Anyone tell me - genuinely don't know.

Will check back tonight. Thanks in adv.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,625
31 Aug 2012  #5
Anyone tell me - genuinely don't know.

Basically, Gazeta Wyborcza started off life as the official opposition newspaper during the first semi-free elections in 1989. To cut a long story short, Solidarity managed to gain a majority in the Sejm a few months after the election. Between then and the Presidential election in 1990 (which saw Walesa elected) - Solidarity tore itself apart. But to understand this - you need to know that Solidarity was a coalition between workers and intellectuals - and it could never last once the reason for existing had gone. That's why Solidarity today bears no relation to the Solidarity of 1989. But anyway -

Gazeta Wyborcza was run from the very beginning by Michnik, and the paper followed his liberal, intellectual values. This led to Walesa falling out with the paper - because the paper was very much behind the then-Prime Minister Tadeusz Mazowiecki's bid for the Presidency rather than Walesa's. Anyway, since then - the paper has always been the liberal choice.

Now - the hatred towards Gazeta Wyborcza is really quite ridiculous. It's all because the paper has never supported the Christian-Right in Poland - which as you probably know, makes up a good 25-30% of the population. But when the PiS government was elected in 2005, they went to paranoid extremes - Gazeta Wyborcza was banned from attending governmental press conferences, they openly spied on their journalists, etc etc. They somewhat intentionally whipped up the hysteria against GW - to the point when you get people posting this kind of ill-informed rubbish on internet forums. It's a sick sort of obsession - they seem absolutely convinced that Gazeta Wyborcza are responsible for their chosen party not winning power.

But if you want a one sentence answer - the hatred is because the newspaper is liberal and stands for liberal values.

The other truth is that Michnik did far more to oppose Communism than the vast majority of people who oppose Michnik ever did. And I suspect, at least in the case of Jaroslaw Kaczynski, it burns him inside.
sobieski 107 | 2,129
31 Aug 2012  #6
What do you think?

I think you are a Ziobrist, destroying your laptop from time to time.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
31 Aug 2012  #7
Let's not forget another reason why not everybody is in love with Wybiórcza -- becuase it is dominated by people of non-Polish.. er, um Bolivian or is it Moldovan ancestry. Such people account for 0.001% of Polish society but well over half of the GW staff. Isn't that a bit strange?

Also, what's so liberal about proclaiming Jaruzelski 'an honourable man' and branding Col. Kukliński, the first Polish officer in NATO, a traitor?
Besides papa and big brother Szechter, let's give Adam's out-of-wedlock mum Helena Michnik the credit she so richly deserves: she was one of post-war Poland's leading Sovietisers of Polish school texbooks.
pawian 159 | 9,462
31 Aug 2012  #8
Besides papa and big brother Szechter, let's give Adam's out-of-wedlock mum Helena Michnik the credit she so richly deserves: she was one of post-war Poland's leading Sovietisers of Polish school texbooks.

It is very amusing to see how right wing maniacs like you faithfully follow the doctrine that was first introduced by stalinist communists: that children are equally responsible for their parents` misdeeds.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,625
31 Aug 2012  #9
becuase it is dominated by people of non-Polish.. er, um Bolivian or is it Moldovan ancestry. Such people account for 0.001% of Polish society but well over half of the GW staff.

Proof, Polonius?

Also, what's so liberal about proclaiming Jaruzelski 'an honourable man' and branding Col. Kukliński, the first Polish officer in NATO, a traitor?

Jaruzelski stuck to his word and oversaw a peaceful transition to democracy. He could still easily have annulled the results of the Contract Sejm election, but he didn't. And when his time was up, he resigned peacefully without complaint.

Kuklinski was a spy. He spied on Poland. Pretty traitorous of him.

Besides papa and big brother Szechter, let's give Adam's out-of-wedlock mum Helena Michnik the credit she so richly deserves: she was one of post-war Poland's leading Sovietisers of Polish school texbooks.

And this is the perfect example of why it's so funny to watch the Gazeta Wyborcza haters - instead of using facts, they rely on irrelevant rubbish to somehow stress that Gazeta Wyborcza is "evil" and "wrong".

The rest of us look at people like Polonius, we look at who they support (PiS) and resolve never to let them anywhere near power again.
OP goofy_the_dog
31 Aug 2012  #10
Polonius! You have restored my belief in human kind, Thank you for that :)
No I am not a Ziobrist, although I like Ziobro.
I always vote on PIS.

"Jaruzelski stuck to his word and oversaw a peaceful transition to democracy. He could still easily have annulled the results of the Contract Sejm election, but he didn't. And when his time was up, he resigned peacefully without complaint. "

Delphiandomine... I have no words to describe your... well I am sorry to say that but yes, stupidity!
Jaruzelski, was a bastard, he hated democracy, he wanted Russians to invade Poland.
Haven't you seen the film called: "Towarzysz Jaruzelski wyrusza na wojne"? Then watch it, and make up your mind.
Probably you don't even remember 1970s-1980s, so it is not your fault... but believe me when I say that it was all planned.

From the WRON and the Martial Law to Walesa aka Bolek and the new "Free Rzeczypospolita"
rybody who will disagree
Also from what I remember the new media had supported Mazowiecki since he wanted to unleash and open the secret documents with names of those who betrayed the country and collaborated with the SB. Walesa was one of the SB agents, and although we will probably never understand his role in the SB, it wasn't on 100% some petty little jobs.

You have to remember that after Bolek was elected as a President of this God forsaken "FREE" Poland, some hidden documents went misteriously missing!

At the end of this post, may I also remind everybody who'll disagree with me that Poland was the first country to start a fight with the Communist regime, but was the last, when it came for the Soviet Army to move out...

Cheers
InWroclaw 89 | 1,915
31 Aug 2012  #11
But if you want a one sentence answer - the hatred is because the newspaper is liberal and stands for liberal values.

Thanks for the reply, sorry this is short as am pressed for time at the moment.

I agree with much of what you say, but not sure I agree about Kuklinski or that General J. From what I have read about the former, even on Wikipedia, and some documentary which I think was about him, he seems more of a hero than "spy".

Even Clinton wanted Kuklinski exonerated, did he not?

If Kuklinski helped bring about the fall of communism, not sure why anyone Polish and non-communist would think he was not a hero. Baffling in many ways. But perhaps my knowledge is lacking. I would obviously be a non-communist if I had to wear a badge :o)
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
1 Sep 2012  #12
Kukliński risked his life and that of his family to compromise the dastardly Soviet-directed intrigues of the pitiful Kremlin-controlled puppet state called PRL, thus becoming a modern-day knight and hero of our grand NATO alliance. BTW the long arm of the Kremlin reached all the way to Flordia to kill Kukliński's two sons. By his blind, unshaken servility to BIg Brother, Gen. Jabberwocky was morally also responsible for those Soviet crimes.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,625
1 Sep 2012  #13
I agree with much of what you say, but not sure I agree about Kuklinski or that General J. From what I have read about the former, even on Wikipedia, and some documentary which I think was about him, he seems more of a hero than "spy".

From my point of view - he was passing information that could have been used against Poland (and by extension, Poles) in a future war. He was passing this information to a hostile country which undoubtedly had plans for the invasion/occupation of the country should it so happen - so - it is rather treasonous. Imagine if war did happen and his information was used to attack Poland? We all know nowadays that the Americans don't particularly care about ethics in war.

Interestingly, and I didn't know this - it seems that some of the far right nationalists also view him as a traitor, which is strange.

If Kuklinski helped bring about the fall of communism, not sure why anyone Polish and non-communist would think he was not a hero. Baffling in many ways. But perhaps my knowledge is lacking.

Don't worry, you could study this stuff for years and still not get to the bottom of it ;)

Bear in mind that he did this stuff, not for ideological reasons, but cold hard cash - a lot of it!

I always vote on PIS.

Yet you're such a proud patriot that you live outside Poland. Very typical for PiS supporters.

Delphiandomine... I have no words to describe your... well I am sorry to say that but yes, stupidity!

Ah yes, the typical PiS voter approach. Instead of providing eloquent, relevant facts - you instead resort to the usual "you're stupid!" line favoured by PiS activists who don't actually have a good argument against what's said.

Jaruzelski, was a bastard, he hated democracy, he wanted Russians to invade Poland.

He hated democracy? A man who had the Polish Army in almost total obedience to him wouldn't oversee a transition to democracy if he hated it.

Haven't you seen the film called: "Towarzysz Jaruzelski wyrusza na wojne"? Then watch it, and make up your mind.

I've already made up my mind. I think his finest hour was in 1989/1990, and he proved himself when it really mattered. Any man brave enough to give up almost total power for an uncertain future - and to do what was right for Poland - is about as patriotic as it gets. Certainly far more patriotic than a bunch of screaming old women who attack children physically, that's for sure.

Probably you don't even remember 1970s-1980s, so it is not your fault... but believe me when I say that it was all planned.
From the WRON and the Martial Law to Walesa aka Bolek and the new "Free Rzeczypospolita"

Ah yes, the typical PiS Gazeta Polska conspiracy theory. May I remind you that Walesa has been conclusively cleared of any spying charges, while your leader, Jaroslaw Kaczynski had a treasonous bastard for a father?

Also from what I remember the new media had supported Mazowiecki since he wanted to unleash and open the secret documents with names of those who betrayed the country and collaborated with the SB. Walesa was one of the SB agents, and although we will probably never understand his role in the SB, it wasn't on 100% some petty little jobs. You have to remember that after Bolek was elected as a President of this God forsaken "FREE" Poland, some hidden documents went misteriously missing!

Tell me, why are there no documents in the files about Jaroslaw's homosexuality? Rather strange that the brother of a known opposition activist wouldn't have any information about this, don't you think?

By the way, you do realise that if those files were opened, your Dear Leader Jaroslaw would have been finished politically? We all know that his father betrayed Poland and his former AK men, after all.

At the end of this post, may I also remind everybody who'll disagree with me that Poland was the first country to start a fight with the Communist regime, but was the last, when it came for the Soviet Army to move out...

Wrong. East Germany started the fight in 1953, and as for the Soviet Army - they were in Germany till 1994. They left Poland in 1993.

Ah, PiS voters. History was never their strong point...
jon357 63 | 14,122
1 Sep 2012  #14
Interestingly, and I didn't know this - it seems that some of the far right nationalists also view him as a traitor, which is strange.

He broke the oath he made on joining the army. He passed secrets to a hostile foreign power. He was a traitor.

A more interesting question is: who controls Gazeta Polska, Nasz Dziennik, Rz etc.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
1 Sep 2012  #15
The movers, shakers and leading lights of the GW camp include:
Michnik
£uczywo
Gebert
Skalski
Blumsztajn
Bikont
Krzemień
Bogucka
Toruńczyk
Najsztub
Lityński
Bielecki
Wujec

That is only a partial list becuase many others are in denilal and hding behind good Polish-sounding names.

The bottom line is that no other Polish daily can match the overrepresentation of Moldovo-Bolivians, and many if not most have stalinist family roots to boot. Why? This is not about collective guilt, but having been raised in the pro-PPR-PZPR climate, they tend to be 'soft on communism'
gumishu 11 | 5,012
1 Sep 2012  #16
A more interesting question is: who controls Gazeta Polska, Nasz Dziennik, Rz etc.

there is no etc here - this is as far as the list goes

He broke the oath he made on joining the army.

if you discover that you have taken an oath to the devil what do you do - remain loyal to the devil? - Kukliński was a hero he risked his own life and the life of his family for what he thought was beneficial to Poland
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
1 Sep 2012  #17
The majority of those in charge of Nasz Dziennik, Rzepa and others are of Polish nationality. The question was: what is behind that unusual concentration of people of non-Polish ancestry in a single newsroom and Agora boardroom?
boletus 30 | 1,366
1 Sep 2012  #18
Kuklinski was a spy. He spied on Poland. Pretty traitorous of him.

He broke the oath he made on joining the army. He passed secrets to a hostile foreign power. He was a traitor.

If you want to discuss Kukliński again, kindly go to the thread devoted to it, Polish Officer in NATO, Col. Ryszard Kukliński. . I believe the thread is still open, and you can re-heat your old arguments there if you want. For the record: I disagreed with you there.

Bringing this subject here, in this thread is sneaky and unfair.
jon357 63 | 14,122
1 Sep 2012  #19
No. The list is long and Poland has a plethora of newspapers and magazines. GW is among the most neutral and reliable. And it's ownership is a matter of public record and well known. Some of the others are shadier.

GW belongs to a publicly traded company - anyone can buy into it on the stock exchange and as part of its securities filing it must observe certain proprieties.there is no need to ask who 'controls' is - Agora is subject to the same controls as any company whose shares we can up and sell. Most of Poland's right wing press are not subject to such scrutiny or transparency.

As for Kuklinski - he didn't make 'an oath with the devil' he made the standard oath on joining the Polish Army. He broke that oath and passed secrets to a hostile foreign power. This is treason. Even if one dislikes the politics of either the USA or USSR his oath was to Poalnd and thousands of others did not betray that solemn promise. Breaking that oath was subject to clear legal sanctions. A great shame he was never brought to justice.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,625
1 Sep 2012  #20
If you want to discuss Kukliński again, kindly go to the thread devoted to it, Polish Officer in NATO, Col. Ryszard Kukliński. . I believe the thread is still open, and you can re-heat your old arguments there if you want. For the record: I disagreed with you there.
Bringing this subject here, in this thread is sneaky and unfair.

Good idea - mods, can you shift the posts about him to there?

A more interesting question is: who controls Gazeta Polska, Nasz Dziennik, Rz etc.

A very interesting question indeed. Are the finances of Nasz Dziennik publicly available, like Agora's?

The ownership of Nasz Dziennik is certainly far murkier than Agora's.

That is only a partial list becuase many others are in denilal and hding behind good Polish-sounding names.

That's a particularly paranoid thing to say. Any proof of these people's alleged non-Polishness? Or is it just something you read on a particularly whack-job website?

The bottom line is that no other Polish daily can match the overrepresentation of Moldovo-Bolivians, and many if not most have stalinist family roots to boot. Why? This is not about collective guilt, but having been raised in the pro-PPR-PZPR climate, they tend to be 'soft on communism'

You do realise that Jaroslaw Kaczynski, hero of the Catholic Right was raised in a pro-Communist household - and benefited from his father's betrayal of others during Stalinism?

The obsession with Gazeta Wyborcza and Michnik is nothing short of lunacy. If you read Gazeta Polska, the amount of references to "Gazeta Wyborcza" and "Michnik" are astounding.

Look at this - they're absolutely obsessed with the man.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
1 Sep 2012  #21
Why are all the GW apologists and advocates carefully skirting the main question: why the unusual ethnic concentration in one news organisation?
delphiandomine 83 | 17,625
1 Sep 2012  #22
I've asked you three times now - provide proof.

All I'm asking for is one credible source. Come on, can't be difficult, can it? Surely someone in the world, writing for one credible newspaper, has picked up on the incredible story of how the biggest-selling daily newspaper in Poland is run by a collection of non-Polish individuals.
Zibi - | 336
1 Sep 2012  #23
why the unusual ethnic concentration in one news organisation?

That concentration exists in your mind only.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
1 Sep 2012  #24
delphiandomine
Google any of the Michniks, £uczywos, Bikonts, Blumsztajns, etc.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,625
1 Sep 2012  #25
I asked for a single credible source that proves that the newspaper is run by an incredible collection of non-Polish individuals.

I mean, it's such an incredible story - all this talk of Gazeta Wyborcza being run by Bolivians and Mongolians - surely someone somewhere has written about this truly amazing state of affairs in Poland?
jon357 63 | 14,122
1 Sep 2012  #26
And what? You may as well google their entire shareholder list. Pointless interest in the ethnicity of a company's board is at best an irrelevance and at worst a piece of destructive racism, something not unknown from the dodgier posters here.

It is also fallacious since Agora are a public company. Far more profitable to expose the shady individuals lurking in the dark behind Poland 'right wing' press.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,625
1 Sep 2012  #27
Pointless interest in the ethnicity of a company's board is at best an irrelevance and at worst a piece of destructive racism, something not unknown from the dodgier posters here.

No no. Polonius has asserted that the people who run Gazeta Wyborcza are non-Polish. We're waiting for him to back this up with a single credible source.

I'm very interested - it's such an interesting claim that the biggest selling newspaper in Poland is controlled by non-Polish people - from writers to shareholders. We're waiting for Polonius to prove this.

Far more profitable to expose the shady individuals lurking in the dark behind Poland 'right wing' press.

An interesting question is why Radio Maryja took quite a lot of money from a guy who lives in South America and who might have been involved with some nefarious activities with the Nazi occupiers of Poland.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
1 Sep 2012  #28
Look up euphemism. Case rests.
Harry
1 Sep 2012  #29
Nice way of admitting you cannot give us even a single reliable source to back your claim, polonius.
pawian 159 | 9,462
1 Sep 2012  #30
Simply speaking, the old theory comes handy: whoever isn`t with us, is against us and we need to destroy them.

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