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Why don't Polish women treat education seriously for themselves?


boletus 30 | 1,366
2 Oct 2012  #91
As an American who has also lived in Europe for a while, it seems to me many Polish women and other women from the "eastern" countries don't treat education seriously.

You and I have completely different experiences due to different backgrounds. Shortly: during my undergraduate times not many girls studied physics, mathematics, or engineering. But quite a lot studied biology, medicine, dentistry, some studied chemistry. Quite a number studied pedagogy, archeology, history, art, music, etc. Many, many women became teachers. And then there were six public universities at that city and I assume that many women studied gardening, forestry, economy. Now there are eight of them: Classical U., Medical U., Nature U., Economical U., Artistic U., U of Technology, Musical Academy, Physical Education Academy. There are also about 20 private colleges,

At that time gender roles did not exist. One of my female friends who was employed at the same institute as I was, went through the same graduation process: from assistant-trainee, through assistant, senior assistant and assistant professor. And we both were receiving the same salary at each level.

My wife graduated in psychology. She did not need to hunt for a husband at her age. She was professional enough and she enjoyed many years of employment at various correctional facilities as psychologist. She put all her heart in her profession. Psychology students were mostly females, and they treated their future profession quite seriously, You should have listen to their discussions, which were as hot as our discussions about physics or engineering.

All Polish ladies I have met here in Canada, and who are part of our cirque of friends are professionals: Ewa is a biologist with passion, working on new drugs and running her own lab; Bo┼╝ena, a mechanical engineer from Poland has been a senior drafwoman for years; Barbara teaches English (ESL) for immigration services; Ewa #2 is a consultant engineer in acoustics and vibrations; Ola, an electronic engineer from Poland could not stand a stress so she re-qualified: she runs flower shops and organizes banquets in big hotels; Ala is a police officer. I know of many Polish women that are real estate agents; some run bookstores, are involved in music, jazz concerts, theaters.

In summary: we all have different experiences. Generalizations are bad as usual..
Meathead 5 | 470
2 Oct 2012  #92
A fun fact: Most CEOs in America have an education in engineering or some other technical field.

When FIAT took over Chrysler it was said that Chrysler would get Italian small car technology, but Fiat's contribution wasn't small car technology it was Italian management. American management, outsourcing jobs to China and than wondering why the population doesn't have the money to buy anything. Brilliant!
boletus 30 | 1,366
2 Oct 2012  #93
Engineering grads are often times in management positions but lack business management and communication coursework.

Management was of no use for me. Physics, Engineering and Computer Science it was all I needed to make me happy and versatile enough.
sa11y 5 | 331
2 Oct 2012  #94
I do not want to hear excuses

Lack of working visas and lack of money is an excuse? I don't think comparing to Israeli women is the right level of comparison, they come to USA to study, therefore is more natural that they enter qualified work force (easier to get work permit after completing uni in USA, also easier to find employer who will help to take care for paperwork). Those Polish women that come to USA to study (to few) follow similar route.

Most Polish people who come to stay in USA, still come for work, as USA universities are too expensive for Polish people. We can study in any EU country for fraction of the cost. But then you don't go to USA, you usually find job in Europe - closer to home.

If you are talking about Polish immigration in USA, they are either "Polonia" - which I found are a lot more traditional in their thinking as to what women's role in household is (yes, and there I certainly agree with your statement - in this case is upbringing), the casual workers without proper visas (they can't find legal work so they are obviously confined to waitressing and domestic jobs, and the small number of professionals (whom I assume you didn't meet too many of them).

Another thing is what you perceive as the "higher" level of education. If a degree - then you are wrong, as more women in Poland than men hold Bachelors/Masters degree. If you are talking about PhD and further, then you are right. This is because it is easier for men in Poland to find employment where high level of education is required than for women. Again - driven again by more conservative perception of women's role in society.

Overall, you do have a point in your statement, but argumentation you gave is not right. Many women are quite happy not having a proper career, but that's often because they have to more persistent and driven to be given same opportunities as men in Poland. So they don't even try too hard. But there are plenty of Polish women in international companies all over the world that worked hard to be where they are.
a.k.
2 Oct 2012  #95
What was the nick of the guy who claimed to be adults film producer or something? EM_Wave? I have a hunch that Physicist is the same guy.

If so, the whole thread is a provocation of a bored teen or very immature young man. I advice do not feed the troll.
OP Physicist
2 Oct 2012  #96
Lack of working visas and lack of money is an excuse? I don't think comparing to Israeli women is the right level of comparison, they come to USA to study, therefore is more natural that they enter qualified work force

Exactly! You know why? Because Polish women don't value education as much as other women.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,648
2 Oct 2012  #97
What was the nick of the guy who claimed to be adults film producer or something? EM_Wave? I have a hunch that Physicist is the same guy.

More than likely.

He certainly was dumped by a Polish girl at some point, such is his obsession.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
2 Oct 2012  #98
Indeed.

Polish women are well above men for graduating and well above the average 27 countries they are compared to .

Disparities in graduation rates are even greater between men and women. On average in OECD countries, significantly more women (47%) are expected to obtain university-level qualifications than men (32%) based on current graduation rates. The gender gap in favour of women is at least 25 percentage points in Iceland, Poland, the Slovak Republic and Slovenia. In Germany, Mexico and Switzerland, graduation rates between sexes are quite balanced. In Japan and Turkey, by contrast, more men graduate from university-level education.

delphiandomine 83 | 17,648
2 Oct 2012  #99
But...but...his strippers were Polish!

(which is also lies - anyone who reads the news knows that it's mostly Romanians and Bulgarians these days)
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
2 Oct 2012  #100
anyone who reads the news knows that it's mostly Romanians and Bulgarians these days)

What news do you be readin then, eh? :)

It's the usual, some guy gets dumped and takes it out on Polish women.
So comes on an internet forum and starts a bashing thread.

Of all the angles he could have played, he really picked a bad one.
OP Physicist
3 Oct 2012  #101
This whole thread is not about asking a question, it's a loaded question set up to provoke a negative picture.
One which I have given an answer to, an answer which you don't like so you continue to bash Polish women (better here than in real life, I suppose),

Again, I'm not bashing Polish women. I have nothing against them. I've dated a few in the past and I had no hard feelings towards them.

Your link doesn't work for me by the way. And just because one source claims something, it doesn't mean it's true. I know for a fact that most of the Polish that come here do not get as educated as western European women or Israeli women.

Polish women have contributed very little to academia compared to Israeli women or western European women.

Perhaps he wishes they didn't have an education so they'd see past his beer belly, spotty face and lack of manners.

Rough talk from a long time poster who has never uploaded any photos of himself.

(which is also lies - anyone who reads the news knows that it's mostly Romanians and Bulgarians these days)

Walk into a strip club yourself in the London area and I guarantee you will probably find Polish strippers in it.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,444
3 Oct 2012  #102
Walk into a strip club yourself in the London area and I guarantee you will probably find Polish strippers in it.

well, you will not find educated women in strip clubs, would you? That is a given and stating a fact does not contribute to the real situation of Polish women. However, you have touched a point of view congruent with the feminist point regarding women's underemployment in certain fields, but that applies worldwide, not solely to Polish women. If you were sensitive enough and friendly on the whole in regards to treat women as equals, you would not write such thread. Underemployment of women is still wide spread and often you seem to deal with immigrant women, who are a specific group. They often immigrate to other countries in order to make a living, often they support their families back home and often, in spite of their education have to work menial jobs, because of many barriers they encounter upon arrival in the host country. The best example is probably the Philipino group and their financial contribution to their country amount to if I remember correctly 15%. So women coming from economically underdeveloped countries (that includes Poland) are in fact a large financial contribution to those countries economies. Such as life.

Those barriers are:
language
gender
financial obligation to their families
just to name a few.
I attended university in the Western countries and I often heard stories of female students working in strip clubs in order to earn their tuition. I did not happen on the grand scale, but it happened often enough. However, immigrant women have a much higher level of underemployment in host countries and I understand that this is the group you are targeting in your thread.

I hope that I have explained to you some of the reasons why some women go abroad and try to make their ends meet. It takes time in some countries to have your education approved, sometimes it takes years (as it is in Canada) for certain professions and it cost a lot of money. That is my take on it and it is better that those women work then drain the welfare system, provided they are legal in the host country in which case they are not entitled to any social benefits.

You also include many sweeping statements re Polish women and I think that every case should be treated individually. Only then you will be able to understand the situation and I believe that this was the purpose of your thread.

As for Jewish women, well - education is highly valued in their culture and I agree that it should be the same in other cultures, including the Polish one.
sa11y 5 | 331
3 Oct 2012  #103
Because Polish women don't value education as much as other women

No - because they don't have money to pay for studies in USA (or in fact overseas, because costs of living are higher than in Poland in general). They have to EARN the money FIRST.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
3 Oct 2012  #104
Your link doesn't work for me by the way. And just because one source claims something, it doesn't mean it's true.

graduate--

SZfzSDf--

No excuses now...
How about three sources? and in each case Polish women far out number both the U.S.A and Israel.

What does Israel have to do with anything anyway?

Those barriers are:

Do you ever get the feeling that some people do not want rational points? that they would much prefer if we just joined in bashing Polish women?

That no matter what evidence or circumstances we try to explain it will not make one bit of difference and that we are wasting our time even trying...

Peeing against the wind.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,648
3 Oct 2012  #105
Walk into a strip club yourself in the London area and I guarantee you will probably find Polish strippers in it.

As I said - I'm amused that you spent so much time as to ascertain their nationality.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,444
3 Oct 2012  #106
No excuses now...

of course there isn't.

What does Israel have to do with anything anyway?

the present dating pool of the OP - I don't know. He is not very rational in his observations.

Do you ever get the feeling that some people do not want rational points?

yes, I often do and what surprises me is the fact that some claim to be educated- well, as it has been illustrated by OP, not all types of formal education helps one to think rationally.

that they would much prefer if we just joined in bashing Polish women?

bashing is an emotional reaction.
(where is Zimmy when you need him;)

That no matter what evidence or circumstances we try to explain it will not make one bit of difference and that we are wasting our time even trying...
Peeing against the wind.

very well put.

PS. OP does not seem to understand the impact of pure and simple economy on our lives:D
a.k.
3 Oct 2012  #107
What does Israel have to do with anything anyway?

Check the thread history of EM_Wave.
Basiclly he came here to ask how many J/ews lived before war in the village his mother's family orginates, then after hearing that about a half of the village, he insisted that his roots must be J/ewish. Since then he questions: Polish intelligence and achievements (comparing to J/ewish ones of course) and put down Polish women for allegedly being engaged greatly in adult entertaiment industry (compared to educated and self-respectful J/ewish women). To put it in simple words he projects his own complexes on us and tries to sign out of Polish ancestry.

He could make a perfect couple with Nikidrewbear :)))

Edit. Wow I see we have a new rule here which is:

"Because of spamming issues you are not allowed to post the term: "J/ews". This rule is applied to all Guests and registered members who have posted less than 2 useful messages."
delphiandomine 83 | 17,648
3 Oct 2012  #108
"Because of spamming issues you are not allowed to post the term: "J/ews". This rule is applied to all Guests and registered members who have posted less than 2 useful messages."

Would be better to restrict it to everyone, I'm sick to death of the topic.
a.k.
3 Oct 2012  #109
But then we wouldn't be able to reveal Physicist's mischievous plot :)
NorthMancPolak 4 | 648
3 Oct 2012  #110
He hasn't got a plot, he has an agenda. An agenda which seeks to prove that all Polish women are either sl*ts, uneducated sl*ts, or are simply desperate for black c*ck.

He's being a lot more subtle about it now, i.e., his posts no longer end with "and everyone knows that Polish women prefer black men", but we know what he's up to.

Like Polonius3's obsession with homosexuality, he is clearly obsessed with black c*ck himself. Apart from healthcare workers, few men would know so much about Polish pen*s size, unless they had some sort of interest in gay issues - and he's made it pretty clear that he's not a nurse or a physician.

Polish women (not the decent ones, anyway) don't tend to go around telling people about their experiences of c*ck sizes, so we know he's trolling again. I've got four decades of experience with Polish people, so I think I've got a better idea of the truth than some trolling South African with an American passport.
Meathead 5 | 470
4 Oct 2012  #111
No - because they don't have money to pay for studies in USA (or in fact overseas, because costs of living are higher than in Poland in general). They have to EARN the money FIRST.

Just for the record, but higher education is affordable in the US. Loans, grants, scholarship monies are available. Also there are work study programs. I paid my way through college by working part time. And I've never met a Polish American woman who didn't have a college degree. Education is valued in the Polish American community.
OP Physicist
4 Oct 2012  #112
No - because they don't have money to pay for studies in USA (or in fact overseas, because costs of living are higher than in Poland in general). They have to EARN the money FIRST.

There are many ways for poor people to get a good American education. Stop making excuses. Israeli women don't come to the United States as millionaires. Stop trying to spread a false message that only Polish women struggle with money while other immigrants are well off.

the present dating pool of the OP - I don't know. He is not very rational in his observations.

Actually, I am and it's a fact that women from Israel and other parts of Europe take education a lot more seriously than Polish women who come to America.

At the university I work at, we have Israeli women spending almost all their time studying and doing research. Me and the guys have to convince them many times to go out to the bar on a Friday night and stop wasting time that should be spent partying.

well, you will not find educated women in strip clubs, would you? That is a given and stating a fact does not contribute to the real situation of Polish women. However, you have touched a point of view congruent with the feminist point regarding women's underemployment in certain fields, but that applies worldwide, not solely to Polish women.

The point about strip clubs is that it's shameful that many Polish women coming to western Europe choose to be strippers. Again, I think the idea that Polish parents teach their daughters to value appearance more than intellect has something to do with that...

It's interesting you bring up feminism. I took a few women's studies classes during my undergraduate years and a common fact that was accentuated was that religion contributes a lot to the oppression of women...especially the Catholic church. With Poland being the most Catholic country on earth, it adds to extending gender roles.

How about three sources? and in each case Polish women far out number both the U.S.A and Israel.

Jewish women have contributed far more to academia than Polish Catholic women. That is a fact.

247wallst.com/2012/01/31/the-10-most-educated-countries-in-the-world/3
One source showing the 10 most educated countries on earth. Poland is not on the list but Israel is number 2.

yes, I often do and what surprises me is the fact that some claim to be educated- well, as it has been illustrated by OP, not all types of formal education helps one to think rationally.

Work on your reading comprehension first. Then we'll talk about thinking rationally.

To put it in simple words he projects his own complexes on us and tries to sign out of Polish ancestry.

1.) To add on, my mother's family tree also has Jewish surnames in it so don't leave out some important info.

2.) Define Polish ancestry? I have no ethnic Polish ancestry whatsoever. Also, my most common ancestry is German. It's what I connect with the most and I most certainly don't have any complexes regarding Germans. German women are very educated and Germany has contributed so much to STEM fields (science, technology, engineering, and math)...including major contributions to the invention of calculus and quantum mechanics.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
4 Oct 2012  #113
One source showing the 10 most educated countries on earth. Poland is not on the list but Israel is number 2.

Funny article because it clearly manipulates what the report from the Education at a Glance 2011 actually says.

In the past 50 years, college graduation rates in developed countries have increased nearly 200%, according to Education at a Glance 2011, a recently published report by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). The report shows that while education has improved across the board, it has not improved evenly, with some countries enjoying much greater rates of educational attainment than others. Based on the report, 24/7 Wall St. identified the 10 developed countries with the most educated populations.

Here is the

SDFzdsf

So, no nice try but scratch the surface and you'll see that the statistics are in full favour of Polish women's interest in education and don't support your Polish women bashing.
kondzior 9 | 949
15 Oct 2012  #114
Working with women is traumatizing.

After reading that several thoughts occured to me:1. You might be of low status yourself,

"Status" is an alien concept for me. And for (most of the) men.

that's why you blame it for your failure with women. It's an easy and comfortable explanation for you

I had to work in a governmental office dominated by women these last three days, because they have an important federal IT infrastructure. I never want to go there again. I would compare the experience and horror experienced therein to extended sleep paralysis.

After months of working with ambitious, hard-working men with personality who have become almost like brothers to me in many respects, my jaw just hit the floor. I could find maybe one woman in the office with the kind of personality and ambition I would respect. Tamely.

The motto of the rest however could be summed up in "Don't rock the boat."

I have noticed that they're always losing tremendous amounts of time gossiping instead of concentrating on real tasks, and they have a very strong sense of complacency. This really shocked me. Sure, my coworkers don't always work... but they have a real passion for their work, and work hard. I couldn't find one woman in the whole governmental office who was like that. They seemed to find all the excuses in the world to gossip and establish some sort of playful pecking order between themselves instead of rewarding their employer with at least a bit of productivity and dedication.

Most hard to endure however, was this constant atmosphere of forced niceness everywhere. The overreactions at the most insignificant things, so long as it validated their will to have everything be nice, safe and cuddly.

At some point I had to explain to one of them why I disagreed a bit more strongly before I left, and when I came back the next morning the first thing she did was come talk to me and apologize profusedly, clearly looking for my approval, that she didn't make me mad or anything like that. I was like, why are you doing this to me, who cares? I have these sorts of talk with my male coworkers often multiple times a day and no one bats an eyelid. Then I ended up disappointed that this is the sort of attitude that begets respect and deference from women nowadays.

You do not need to look any further to wonder why our world has forced niceness and zero risk attitude everwhere, which becomes more strict and absurd all the time.

I have been interested in a long time in testosterone and estrogen, and how they respectively shape and limit all of men's and women's behavior. At no point in my life has it been any clearer than now.
strzyga 2 | 993
15 Oct 2012  #115
Working with women is traumatizing.

It seems the very existence of women is traumatizing for you. Tough.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,648
15 Oct 2012  #116
Don't you get the feeling that he was bullied by girls?
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,665
15 Oct 2012  #117
well obviously he is a 'man's man' and should just avoid dealing with women.
kondzior 9 | 949
16 Oct 2012  #118
Women start being more reliable and ambitious when they're older because of the testosterone. It's been proven. It's again all about hormones.

God's design is logical, after all. He made sure the females would be driven by hormones that would favor nurture, safety, calm and indirectness. While He gave men ones that would favor ambition, risk taking, empathy drive.

Once they cannot have babies anymore, then it makes more sense for them to take risks, hence His design. Post menopausal women have been shown to vie for high ranking positions more, and to ask for more raises as well.
Barney 14 | 1,469
16 Oct 2012  #119
It's been proven. It's again all about hormones.

Is there a hormone that makes women giggle and throw beach balls to each other while wearing bikinis?
kondzior 9 | 949
16 Oct 2012  #120
Sure Barney. Women don't know about partnership or brotherhood or anything like that. Men needed to develop these social skills in order to survive in the wilds while hunting, while women were fighting among themselves to get the guy with the bigger dick.

And guess what, nothing changed in 20000 years.


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