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Why don't Polish women treat education seriously for themselves?


kondzior 9 | 949
29 Sep 2012  #61
there are jobs only for women and there are jobs only for men. of course, both genders are more than welcome to do each others job.
but it does not mean than men are better than women and vice versa. they are just better at doing different things.

I'm with you on this to an extent. But my take on it is that there is a vital job that women used to do that is being increasingly pushed to the backburner in our neverending quest to pursue the allmighty dollar. Homemaker.

That sounds simple but to me it is the very glue of society and we are allowing this vital 'job' to play second fiddle to our 'regular jobs' and even pass times.

I sound terribly old fashioned saying this but while I believe there are exceptions to the women in the workplace rule by and large earning the 'bread' should be a man's concern if for nothing else than to free women up to give full attention to the kids we are raising and the real standard of living we enjoy on our 'off time'.

I think some women can actually contribute to various fields but for the most part believe society functions much better when a more traditional family structure is observed.

I have no idea from where you got that notion that women cannot be passionate in a stereotypically male jobs.

Women are status driven creatures. Think about it, what do women not do for status? They have sex for status, the make friends for status, they dress for status, they get what you coined 'brilliant' jobs for status, they have kids for status, they get married for status.

I used to know why, and probably still do, but damn me if I care enough about wimin and their nonsense to post about it anymore. Let them compete, I say, they wont outpace men unless the game is fixed (as it is today) and even then only just barely. Drain your balls and then move on. What's that? You want romance, passion, a womanly touch, you say?
tigger76 - | 4
29 Sep 2012  #62
Generally speaking Polish women are career women. Real workhorses. If you want a housewife marry English. They're better with the kids, they can cook and they're literate (they can hold a conversation)

I'd say that was a pretty unfair generalisation. Polish women to me seem to be just as motivated to get married, have kids etc...as any Irish or English woman. And they are just as good in the kitchen and with the kids in my opinion. In fact the whole traditional woman behind the cooker, man earning a wage, thing is kind of old fashioned these days anyways. I can cook and look after kids just as well any woman!!! Most men can and do. Also give them a few years and most Polish people can hold a conversation just as well as a native. The topic is about Polish women and their education standards and they are just was well educated as any modern Irish or English women as far as I can tell.
Meathead 5 | 470
30 Sep 2012  #63
A university degree is not a guarantee of knowledge anymore.
Also knowledge can be wasted because after two years of not using it an average person forgets about 90% of it.

I should have phrased it differently, what i meant was: "the time spent in pursuit of knowledge is never wasted". In your parlance, the time spent going to school is not wasted.

They can always study on their own, they don't need to enroll in a university course if that doesn't make them more attractive on the job market.

You keep equating education with a job, I'm not talking about getting a job. My university education didn't have anything to do with my job (it still doesn't). My university education made me a broader (broader thinking) person. It's not just the subject matter, it's the people you meet, the classes you attend, etc. University educated cleaning women make better cleaning women. Get it?

All generalizations are unfair but there are cultural differences. English women are more domestic than Polish women. That doesn't mean that they are more or less. Polish women are as you describe, highly educated working in professional positions. More so than their English counterparts. It doesn't mean that they're better, just different.
PolkaTagAlong 10 | 186
30 Sep 2012  #64
I'm not from a conservative family. I can't cook, I ruined several clothes by washing them together with other colours, and genrally know nothing about running a house.

I'm the same way, I can barely keep my room clean and wash my own clothes every week. I'm not very "nurturing" or "motherly," I come across rather assertive. I'm a bossy babysitter lol. I don't see what feminists think is so wrong with those jobs though. The majority of women are happier and their efforts are better off with a more domestic role than a traditionally male job, but for a smaller percentage of women it's not, so that's why the law should recognize the genders equally. The government should not be influenced in any way by cultural societal matters.
pgtx 29 | 3,159
30 Sep 2012  #65
Ah girls... It's embarassing :)
To clean your room or a couple of rooms or a house or to do loads of laundry, you do not have to be a housewife with no education.

It's just being dirty :)
PolkaTagAlong 10 | 186
30 Sep 2012  #66
I know many people that my dirty would be their clean, so I'm not alone. Oh, and look who doesn't know how to stay on topic.
a.k.
30 Sep 2012  #67
Women are status driven creatures. Think about it, what do women not do for status? They have sex for status, the make friends for status, they dress for status, they get what you coined 'brilliant' jobs for status, they have kids for status, they get married for status.

After reading that several thoughts occured to me:

1. You might be of low status yourself, that's why you blame it for your failure with women. It's an easy and comfortable explanation for you.

2. You sound as bitter and frustrated as the women who say that men are inborn evil.
3. How about: men are status driven creatures. What men not do for status? They have sex for status ("mate I have scr*wed that hot chic, and that too"), they buy cars for status, they dress for status (suits for 2000$), they have kids for status, they get married for status... sounds like human nature, eh? Keep up with the Joneses?

My university education made me a broader (broader thinking) person.

Congratulations. For many people those efforts were futile.

You keep equating education with a job, I'm not talking about getting a job.

But I am, because that's how I understood PolkaTagAlongs' comment.
From the economic point of view an education that doesn't give skills and knowledge needed to get employed is useless. Sorry to say that but a country doesn't need people majoring in philosophy, no matter how much their horizons were broadened by the process of attending the lectures... As I've already said if someone is interested in philosophy can study it on his own and that doesn't make him anybody worse than a person with a useless diploma concerning that subject.

Another point of discussion is quality of courses these days and students themselves. Sorry again, but if you put a mediocre student even in front of the greatest minds of the academic world, expose to the brightest and most ingenious ideas the mankind has come up with and give every needed tools to develope, probably such student still wouldn't benefit from it. You wouldn't give a Stradivarius' violin to an amateur, would you?

I don't know about the USA, but in Poland in recent years a weir-named courses at Polish universities started to crop up. Probably just to attract with novel sounding titles and with the false promise of a strictly proffession-oriented curriculum more students. More students = more cash for the university = more lectures = more cash for the lecturers.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,665
30 Sep 2012  #68
. I don't see what feminists think is so wrong with those jobs though.

no feminist wants to live like a pig in shite
Meathead 5 | 470
1 Oct 2012  #69
but in Poland in recent years a weir-named courses at Polish universities started to crop up. Probably just to attract with novel sounding titles and with the false promise of a strictly profession-oriented curriculum more students. More students = more cash for the university = more lectures = more cash for the lecturers.

The whole premise of your argument is that it is better to be ignorant (lack of knowledge). No it isn't, knowledge is power and one acquires knowledge through formal education. Acquiring knowledge by reading books as opposed to attending school is possible but not probable. The point is unless they go to school they probably won't acquire the knowledge.
boletus 30 | 1,366
1 Oct 2012  #70
No it isn't, knowledge is power and one acquires knowledge through formal education. Acquiring knowledge by reading books as opposed to attending school is possible but not probable. The point is unless they go to school they probably won't acquire the knowledge.

Neither is true. You may fill so confident of your acquired knowledge, either way, until one day you are put to a real test of teaching the others. You will sweat bullets: for every hour of tutoring or lecturing you will take as much as five times of real time to prepare yourself to that task. The pressure becomes easier with time, and at some point you can teach in your dream with zero preparation. But it takes time before that is to happen.

By the way, I used to teach, and I was acknowledged several times by my students in two different categories: as "the best professor" and as the "the best tutor" at some university.
a.k.
1 Oct 2012  #71
The whole premise of your argument is that it is better to be ignorant (lack of knowledge).

No, it's not the premise of mine, and I've never thought, embraced or said the things you accuse me of. I just know the horrible truth about the quality of the education these days. I hope that the situation in the USA is different.

I used to teach

What did you teach?
boletus 30 | 1,366
1 Oct 2012  #72
What did you teach?

Initially theoretical mechanics and continuum mechanics, and later quantum mechanics and solid state physics.
sa11y 5 | 331
1 Oct 2012  #73
meant in that study that western women are starting to become more likely to graduate than men

The same is true in Poland, women are more likely to graduate than men.
Your comment about Polish women working in USA as "unskilled labour" is completely irrelevant to the point that you are making.
Let's face it - how many of them have work permits to work in USA? I guarantee the women working in USA in coffee shops etc are mainly working without proper paperwork, or in process of getting proper visas.

Quite few of them will actually have degrees, but because they never worked in "proper" job in USA, their opportunities are limited.
Orpheus - | 114
1 Oct 2012  #74
Initially theoretical mechanics and continuum mechanics, and later quantum mechanics and solid state physics.

Here's a song for you.

youtube.com/watch?v=PPvRsLWlDXw&feature=player_detailpage
Barney 14 | 1,469
1 Oct 2012  #75
Initially theoretical mechanics and continuum mechanics, and later quantum mechanics

How much do you charge to change a spark plug?

Seriously though I had fluid mechanics and thermodynamics at 9.00am on a Thursday morning followed by Lab work/Practical, my friends were doing English and other such stuff and had about 4 hours per year. Humanities students don’t you just love them:):)
Orpheus - | 114
1 Oct 2012  #76
Humanities students don’t you just love them:):)

"Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world."
PB Shelley
Barney 14 | 1,469
1 Oct 2012  #77
"Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world."

Hey that doesn't rhyme....
kaz200972 2 | 229
1 Oct 2012  #78
Why don't Polish women treat education seriously for themselves?
Loads of reasons!
The Polish education system is based mainly on 'rote learning' which doesn't really inspire deep thinking or understanding or even that much real interest.

Very often degrees are seen as a means to a job rather than a chance to learn a subject in depth.
There are problems with cheating in the Polish system ( also with other countries as well).
Polish women are often encouraged to value themselves for their appearance rather than their intellect.
Quite a few Poles seem to think a woman who shows any great intellect is 'unfeminine'.
They are also considered to be failures if they don't have a man, possibly because it is often an economic necessity in Poland.
All in all, there are plenty of Polish females with degrees but few are actively encouraged have a real love of knowledge or to carry on learning after their 'certified education' is complete, which is why they may give the impression of not taking education seriously.

A university degree is not a guarantee of knowledge anymore.

Not of real knowledge.
I also agree that there are far too many 'silly' degrees about, it's a waste of money.
What we do need is proper training for jobs i.e. proper apprenticeships ,
decent training for nurses etc where they are taught what real nursing care is.
People assume because some one hasn't got a degree they are thick, that's rubbish!
Most people are as intelligent as they want to be, you can learn all your life if you want to.
PolkaTagAlong 10 | 186
1 Oct 2012  #79
Polish women are often encouraged to value themselves for their appearance rather than their intellect.

This is definitely true. I care deeply of what men think of my appearance. Sometimes I feel silly, but I just can't help it. I'm pretty sure it's the cultural influence that was passed down. The part about caring deeply about your appearance and your parents raising you to think that being pretty is essential is all too familiar to me.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
1 Oct 2012  #80
All in all, there are plenty of Polish females with degrees but few are actively encouraged have a real love of knowledge or to carry on learning after their 'certified education' is complete, which is why they may give the impression of not taking education seriously.

Really? I am Polish, educated, and a woman. And I cannot recognise either myself or my female friends in your description.
kaz200972 2 | 229
1 Oct 2012  #81
I'm pleased that you and your friends don't fit this description, I have met many who do though.
I don't think this applies to Poland alone, all too many women are beginning to value their appearance/ability to attract men above other qualities!

Look at the rise in cosmetic surgery, the expansion of the fashion and 'beauty' industry, the rise of eating disorders.
It's really hard to find women's magazines with decent articles, the glut of 'chick lit' books on the shelves of libraries/ book shops, it drags women down.

Most women do not have below average IQ's but society cons them into thinking they have to 'buy' into this female image stuff, we all have to be 'kobiecy'. It's a load of rubbish.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,648
1 Oct 2012  #82
They are also considered to be failures if they don't have a man, possibly because it is often an economic necessity in Poland.

It's no more a necessity in Poland than it is in the UK.

The Polish education system is based mainly on 'rote learning' which doesn't really inspire deep thinking or understanding or even that much real interest.

No, it's not. Bad university lecturers might teach like that, but the Polish school system is very similar to the English system these days - even more so now that GCSE's are being replaced. The education in the first three years is far superior to the English system.

All in all, there are plenty of Polish females with degrees but few are actively encouraged have a real love of knowledge or to carry on learning after their 'certified education' is complete, which is why they may give the impression of not taking education seriously.

Where on earth did you get that impression from? Among my female friends that work, I can't think of one of them who isn't actively developing herself in some way. I know several who are studying a 2nd/3rd foreign language, some who are still studying part time for the love of learning, others who learn for their own interest and more.

All of what you say sounds more like the UK to me...
kaz200972 2 | 229
2 Oct 2012  #83
It's no more a necessity in Poland than it is in the UK

Given the relatively low wages and increasing cost of living, i think it is, also there is still some stigma to being single.

The education in the first three years is far superior to the English system.

Possibly, I don't know enough about 'early years' education to debate that one

but the Polish school system is very similar to the English system these days

I disagree, there is not enough emphasis on understanding concepts in Poland, not really enough in England either

I can't think of one of them who isn't actively developing herself in some way.

That's great, I suspect you may mix with women in the field of education. I stand corrected if I am wrong!
Of all the Polish women I know in the UK and Poland ( a very large number) I only know two who study for interest alone and a few who are learning languages or It skills for work.

All of what you say sounds more like the UK to me..

Unfortunately, it's a problem in the UK and other countries too !
delphiandomine 83 | 17,648
2 Oct 2012  #84
Given the relatively low wages and increasing cost of living, i think it is, also there is still some stigma to being single.

It really isn't.

As for stigma - perhaps in small villages, but no-one cares in bigger towns/cities.

I disagree, there is not enough emphasis on understanding concepts in Poland, not really enough in England either

Well, the two are about the same in my experience. The system in Poland has changed dramatically in a few years - ask Pawian, I'm sure he would never dream of 'rote learning' in his classroom!

That's great, I suspect you may mix with women in the field of education. I stand corrected if I am wrong!

Not really, most of my friends are either working in business related stuff or in something that requires certification (such as physiotherapy). But even the ones working in education are still bettering themselves - I'm teaching two of them very advanced Business English right now so they can complete an MBA.

Unfortunately, it's a problem in the UK and other countries too !

Pretty much - it's what happens when you over prescribe something. The new Scottish Curriculum for Excellence will be an interesting experiment - it returns much of the power to teachers.
kaz200972 2 | 229
2 Oct 2012  #85
delphiandomine
I don't think we are going to agree on many if any of these points. The new Scottish Curriculum for Excellence will be very interesting, the Scots do seem to do education far better than the English and Welsh!
Meathead 5 | 470
2 Oct 2012  #86
Neither is true. You may fill so confident of your acquired knowledge, either way, until one day you are put to a real test of teaching the others. You will sweat bullets: for every hour of tutoring or lecturing you will take as much as five times of real time to prepare yourself to that task. The pressure becomes easier with time, and at some point you can teach in your dream with zero preparation. But it takes time before that is to happen.

Been there, done that.

Seriously though I had fluid mechanics and thermodynamics at 9.00am on a Thursday morning followed by Lab work/Practical, my friends were doing English and other such stuff and had about 4 hours per year. Humanities students don’t you just love them:):)

A broad based education is best. Engineering curriculum are often times too narrow.
boletus 30 | 1,366
2 Oct 2012  #87
Been there, done that.

Sorry, reading your post I had an impression that you valued a formal education above all other forms. This is why I stressed importance of teaching.

Engineering curriculum are often times too narrow.

So what kind of curriculum is broad enough in you opinion?
OP Physicist
2 Oct 2012  #88
Here in the US, mechanical engineering students would slap you in the face if you dared to say their curriculum is not broad enough. ;-)

Also, here in the US, engineering programs tend to have a lot of good classes from non-engineering fields. Half of my college buddies were engineering students and they had to take a decent amount of classes from areas like women's studies, ancient history, English, economics, political science, etc..

It's hard for universities to give their engineering students a great non-engineering education considering there's a lot to cover in a 4 year engineering curriculum especially since the topics are very complex and difficult.

Your comment about Polish women working in USA as "unskilled labour" is completely irrelevant to the point that you are making.

I do not want to hear excuses. There are many Israeli women that come here and end up working in very respectable fields like economics, medicine, engineering, etc. Polish women on the other hand find someone to marry so they can be a housewife or they work as maids, waitresses, etc.

Polish women are often encouraged to value themselves for their appearance rather than their intellect.

Yes, it seems that way. That is probably why many Polish women end up going into things like modelling and if that fails, then they end up being strippers or pûrnstars.
Meathead 5 | 470
2 Oct 2012  #89
So what kind of curriculum is broad enough in you opinion?

Engineering grads are often times in management positions but lack business management and communication coursework.

Here in the US, mechanical engineering students would slap you in the face if you dared to say their curriculum is not broad enough. ;-)

Are you a physicist or engineer? There is a difference ya know. You must be one of those who believe that you can teach management but you can't teach a manager to be an engineer. This is complete nonsense as non-degree designers do lots of design work (oooh, now I'm sounding like a.k.). I have to deal with civils and they are a P.I.T.A. Go through life with blinders on and can't manage no matter how hard one tries. Peter Principal at work.

It's hard for universities to give their engineering students a great non-engineering education considering there's a lot to cover in a 4 year engineering curriculum especially since the topics are very complex and difficult.

Do they need 3 or 4 semesters of Calculus, diffy q's, linear algebra, etc.? But I know take away some of the technical coursework and one will lose one's engineering manhood.

("ooh, you're watering it down, it's too easy") No, you're making the coursework more broad, more related to what they're actually going to do. IMHO of course.
OP Physicist
2 Oct 2012  #90
Are you a physicist or engineer? There is a difference ya know.

Thanks for pointing that out captain obvious. Did they teach you that in your broad education? :-)

I studied engineering physics which at my school was a combination of the physics curriculum with a good amount of classes from the electrical/mechanical engineering departments.

While there is an inherent difference between physics and engineering, that being engineers study science for real world applications, while physicists study science for the sake of advancing it; it is not unusual for engineering Ph.Ds to work as physicists. For example, one of my close friends is an applied physicist working on superconductivity research but his educational background is in EE and Chem.E.

Do they need 3 or 4 semesters of Calculus, diffy q's, linear algebra, etc.?

Well, yes. Those are pretty fundamental classes for many engineering classes.

You must be one of those who believe that you can teach management but you can't teach a manager to be an engineer.

Bad assumption. I do however believe it's more likely for an engineer to be a good manager than vice versa. Here in the US, it's very common for engineers to get a Master of Business Administration degree.

A fun fact: Most CEOs in America have an education in engineering or some other technical field.


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