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American marrying Polish woman in Poland - Church problems


ShortHairThug - | 1,103
20 May 2011 #61
Sorry pal, but I actually had a rather in-depth discussion with a priest in recent weeks concerning this very issue - the RCC considers marriage to be binding regardless of who performs it.

That's not what's at issue here, is it? Any marriage that is legally binding in accordance with the law of the land is also viewed as legally binding by the RCC just in conflict with Gods' law (missing the presence of God) and such union is not considered to be blessed by God hence no annulment necessary. If such a union was granted the divorce for whatever reason by whatever authority that issued it in the first place it is also annulled as far as the church is concerned. What's really at issue here is whether his previous marriage was in the presence of God, after all a Methodist church is a part of Protestant community and any union joined and blessed by their minister is viewed the same and in accordance with the RCC law. This makes it legally binding and lawful in accordance with the church law and civil authorities can't dissolve such a union. His civil divorce is irrelevant, only the civil bond of that union had been broken clearing the way for him to remarry as far as the law of the land is concerned but that's only half the battle. If his union was in presence of God the annulment of that union needs to take place before the priest/minister can remarry him/her again, be it in RCC or Methodist church and if such ceremony ever took place without an annulment of the previous union it would be absent of the Gods presence, not blessed by Him therefore not binding by the church law. Not only that no priest or minister would preside over such ceremony but it would be meaningless worth even less then civil union. It is yet to be determined if he took his wedding vows in a religious ceremony and by the same token receiving the sacrament of holy matrimony or not, another words in Gods' presence and according to His law, where this ceremony took place is irrelevant.

All he needs to do is go to his local Methodist parish ask the minister to check the records if he was ever married in accordance with the church law or was it simply a civil ceremony. If it was just that a civil ceremony get an affidavit with official seal testifying to that, the signature of the minister and present it to the priest who asked for it, than he's good to go, NO bribe necessary. If he was then he can grease whoever it takes to speed up the annulment process which btw would still have to be issued by the Methodist church as they have the authority over those proceedings in this case, as they are the ones who married him in the first place.

Honestly is that so hard to comprehend or do?
If you have a chip on your shoulder than you would rather talk of corruption and bribes but to be honest neither applies in this case. If you're gullible enough you might even do it but as I have explained in my previous post it would only be a donation, for it to classify as a bribe you would have to get something in return and how can you in this case? When the annulment is up to the Methodist authorities and without the affidavit stating it was only a civil union as far as Methodist church is concerned is still a no go as far as the Catholic priest and the church law is conserved.
Harry
21 May 2011 #62
What's really at issue here is whether his previous marriage was in the presence of God.

Good to hear that. His previous wedding was in a park, with a civic officer. So by refusing him permission to wed in the place where altar-boys get buggered, the CC is staying true to two Polish traditions: priests get bribes; and foreigners must be extorted from. Pity for them that his wife won't play that game.
ShortHairThug - | 1,103
21 May 2011 #63
Good to hear that. His previous wedding was in a park, with a civic officer.

Methodist minister presided over his previous wedding or at least that’s what the priest thinks.

It was minister that was methodist or non denominational, or even only civil,

He himself has caused the confusion as he is not really sure who performed the wedding or what kind of wedding it was. Priest asked him to clarify as he can’t marry him in church if he’s already married, that’s all.

priests get bribes; and foreigners must be extorted from. Pity for them that his wife won't play that game.

My parish church is in need of new roof too if he’s willing ;). He would make her life much easier if he got an affidavit that he was never married in accordance to the methods church law. Park, Church, Cemetery who cares? Harry you’re a foreigner care to make a donation?
Harry
21 May 2011 #64
Methodist minister presided over his previous wedding or at least that’s what the priest thinks.

And no doubt the priest can be persuaded that he didn't hear what wasn't said for a few thousand.

Priest asked him to clarify as he can’t marry him in church if he’s already married, that’s all.

And said priest has been given proof that wedding was not before god. However said priest is still waiting for a few thousand more reasons to marry them. Well, either that of video of him raping a choirboy (and even then it's only 50/50 the foreigner won't need to pay).
ShortHairThug - | 1,103
21 May 2011 #65
However said priest is still waiting for a few thousand more reasons to marry them.

Well Harry you’re a Jew, give them a lone at reasonable rate and let’s see if they will just part with the money or will they really get married and Live Happily Ever After. Don’t you worry now; you’ll get your money back with interest either way or is it simply God that you despise so much? If that’s the case I would really watch what I’m saying if I were you, from what I’ve read in the Old Testament, yours is a rather vengeful God.
Havok 10 | 912
21 May 2011 #66
Well Harry you’re a Jew, give them a lone at reasonable

That is a racist remark.
z_darius 14 | 3,968
21 May 2011 #67
And said priest has been given proof that wedding was not before god.

has he?
I thought the OP didn't even remember who the official was.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
21 May 2011 #68
Priest asked him to clarify as he can’t marry him in church if he’s already married, that’s all.

Personally, if someone doesn't know *how* they got married before, some might say that he's unfit to get married now.
mafketis 24 | 9,126
21 May 2011 #69
As mentioned previously, in the US context it's not especially weird. Marriages outside of churches may be performed by religious figures or a few different kinds of non-religious figures (who may be hired by one of the spouses-to-be or the organizers and who might never see the couple before or after).

On the other hand, the OP should be able to find the paperwork for the first wedding and see who filled it out to see if it was any kind of religious figure. That might help.

Also, some confusion may be caused by the use of the word 'Methodist'. In my experience in the US people who have no clear religious affiliation (beyond being vaguely Christian) are very liable to call themselves Methodist if asked for specific denomination. I had relatives that did just that. It's kind of a Gricean answer.

For instance, during commie times, a priest would not marry two people if they didn't have have civil marriages papers first. The reason was that RC marriage alone was not legally recognized by the government.

An RC marriage alone is still not recognized by the government. The change in law basically meant that RC priests are now allowed to perform civil marriages (as long as the paperwork is in order). If it were a purely RC marriage the Polish state would not be able to grant divorces to 'konkordat' marriages but it can and does. The church doesn't recognize them of course and someone with a konkordat marriage and a civil divorce can't get married in church but they can remarry in a civil ceremony.
patrick 6 | 113
4 Aug 2011 #70
I'm curious if coppermouse is going to have to go through the church's "marriage classes". You know, learning about sex and that people who use contraceptives hate children. Maybe it's an afterthought since he may already be married as this thread is a few months old. I really had to grit my teeth sitting through those classes, but I did it for my wife's Polishness. It had nothing to do with belief in God.
g60edition 6 | 175
4 Aug 2011 #71
I had a similar problem.The Catholic church does not recognize the Church Of England as a religion as the Queen is head of the church.Even with copies of the decree nisi and decree absolute this was not good enough for them.We ended up having a civil wedding in Poland.As my wife wanted a church wedding I had to jump through many hoops.I had to go to several church court hearings were they dig up all your past,interview two witnesses and contact your ex wife.After all that we were refused permission and the case had to go to Rome for the Popes approval.This in all took over two years but we got there and we had a church wedding two weeks ago.If I had been married to a Muslim,Jew or other releigion it would have been easier as the Catholic church recognize them as a religion.
Ironside 50 | 10,907
4 Aug 2011 #72
If I had been married to a Muslim,Jew or other releigion it would have been easier as the Catholic church recognize them as a religion.

How long ago? 50 years ?
Possibly the problem was you being divorcee
g60edition 6 | 175
4 Aug 2011 #73
No im not that old,being a divorcee was always going to be problem.But being christened within the Church of England the Catholic church do no accept it as a religion as the Queen is head of the church.We were told by the RC priest it would have been easier if I was not C Of E.That info was given to me by a RC Solicitor who did the interviews.The priest of the church my wife attends was very helpful and understanding but the local Polish priest was very unhelpful and rude.The Polish marriage classes were a hoot
patrick 6 | 113
4 Aug 2011 #74
the local Polish priest was very unhelpfull and rude.

Imagine that; somebody was unhelpful and rude.

The Polish marraige classes were a hoot

Do you speak Polish? Did you understand when they were teaching you about sex?
Ironside 50 | 10,907
4 Aug 2011 #75
a divorcee was always going to be problem.But being christend within the Church of England the Catholic church do no accept it as a religion

you misunderstood all situation, precisely because the Church of England is accepted, you had problems. The problem was you being a divorcee, because in the eyes of the Church you had been married. All this mucking about was about a very serious issue for the RCC, your divorce, because there is no divorce in the RCC.

You should be grateful they made decision in your favour instead of complaining.
Funny but, you took all this a wrong way around :D
g60edition 6 | 175
4 Aug 2011 #76
because there is no divorce in the RCC

I beg to differ as a Polish female friend of ours is divorced form her Polish husband.

instead of complaining

Who is complaining? Moaning about the Polish priest Yes,Just posted what I had to go through to get things sorted.
legend 3 | 664
4 Aug 2011 #77
There is divorces and annulment. Two different things. Just wanted to point that out.
g60edition 6 | 175
4 Aug 2011 #78
Point noted but yes I do know thank you.

Do you speak Polish? Did you understand when they were teaching you about sex?

A fair bit,but they couldnt teach me anything new.How ever I was so tempted to ask questions
patrick 6 | 113
4 Aug 2011 #79
I didn't ask any questions, but I did comment that a discussion would be more beneficial than a lecture. When I did that, people in the class ganged up on me and said how informative and worthwhile it all was.


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