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American marrying Polish woman in Poland - Church problems


Wroclaw 44 | 5,385
19 May 2011 #31
since u are already married is it not possible for your wife to wear white and u both simply repeat your wedding vows. or is this what u are doing ?

just asking.
landora - | 199
19 May 2011 #32
We know that it clearly was not a Catholic ceremony, which means that in the eyes of the Catholic church he has never been legally married.

Not necessarly so, I'm pretty sure the Catholic church sees people married in a protestant church as married... but it doesn't accept the divorce. It might be that the person who started the thread is a deep trouble if he was married in any Christian church. He should get his wife to call the kuria and ask there.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,443
19 May 2011 #33
To be honest you guys are a nation of idiots but its still suprising sometimes.

you are an American too, so don't criticize your own folks. After all the US gave the the upbringing and the education, but I guess it was a waste of money, which could have gone to educate a worthier person- oh, well - sh*t happens.

On topic.

bribing the priest is the way to go. I think he is asking for money,so you need to talk to your wife and explain it to her, since she is the one who is afraid to be condemned by her family if they find out that you paid the priest - they DON"T have to know. She chose YOU, so she should go all the way, including the bribe if she wants to have a nice Catholic ceremony:) and make her family happy.

Let us know how it went. Or, give up the hassle of having a church wedding, you are already married to her and it is her family who has to adjust:) and accept the situation. After all they want you to be happy, right:)?

the truth is that we cannot make everybody happy:)
landora - | 199
19 May 2011 #34
And Sokrates here is absolutely right.

Just wanted to add, there's nothing such as "Catholic divorce". It's an anullement, the church court states that the marriage has never existed - only if the marriage was illegal from the start, for example one person was already married or was forced into it by someone. If the marriage was legal, there is no way to break it or reverse it. That's it, you're married for life.
OP coppermouse 16 | 62
19 May 2011 #35
since u are already married is it not possible for your wife to wear white and u both simply repeat your wedding vows. or is this what u are doing ?

just asking.

Yes I suppose this is what we want to do, She lives now in Poland but will move here when immigration approves her. but I was just now going to the place here where I live for document showing it was only civil wedding previous to send them and she called me. They had some meeting in a court of the church and the decided it is impossible for us to be married in the church. Something about even if it was civil wedding, the fact that I am not baptized means no way it can be, I guess? Before they said it was OK for like one side wedding for her only. Apparently none of the bishop or people in the court could agree, some said yes it is OK and some said no, no way

They also say since she will live with me she can no longer take some sacraments in the church.
So her and her mom are sad and upset. So there is no reason to continue this discussion anymore.
Retarded American out
landora - | 199
19 May 2011 #36
Something about even if it was civil wedding, the fact that I am not baptized means no way it can be, I guess? Before they said it was OK for like one side wedding for her only. Apparently none of the bishop or people in the court could agree, some said yes it is OK and some said no, no way

Argue about it. The marriage between Catholic and non-baptised person is possible in the Catholic Church.

Canon 1086.1 A marriage is invalid when one of the two persons was baptised in the catholic Church or received into it and has not by a formal act defected from it, and the other was not baptised.

Canon 1086.2 This impediment is not to be dispensed unless the conditions mentioned in cann. 1125 and 1126 have been fulfilled.

Canon 1125.3 both parties are to be instructed about the purposes and essential properties of marriage, which are not to be excluded by either contractant.

Canon 1126 It is for the Episcopal Conference to prescribe the manner in which these declarations and promises, which are always required, are to be made, and to determine how they are to be established in the external forum, and how the non-catholic party is to be informed of them.

So it can be done, a bishop's agreement is needed though.
z_darius 14 | 3,968
19 May 2011 #37
If the marriage was legal, there is no way to break it or reverse it.

not true.
see matrimonium non consummatum
landora - | 199
19 May 2011 #38
Then it will be seen as not legal and annulled.
z_darius 14 | 3,968
19 May 2011 #39
Wrong again.
The marriage can be completely legal and still annulled.
You haven't checked what the term means, have you?

Something about even if it was civil wedding, the fact that I am not baptized means no way it can be, I guess?

By RC rules, if you were not baptized you can not be legally married by a RC priest. Ergo, your marriage was never legal.
OP coppermouse 16 | 62
19 May 2011 #40
Maybe in the future something can change but it appears this wedding at the end of June is not going to happen. I just wish they would have told us from the beginning before she sent invitations etc...

Oh well
Ironside 50 | 10,907
19 May 2011 #41
He's not a catholic and doesn't care about the ceremony for himself. The whole married in church is for his wife (and redundant since they live in the US and are legally married there). It's something he wants to do for his wife (and her family). Not getting a church marriage in Poland will no effect whatsoever on their marital status in the US it will just be sad for his wife.

Well, nobody is forcing him to marry her in CC. I would blame his wife for muddling the issue. Does he even realize that she cannot divorce him if we are talking Catholic marriage?

Have some respect.

the fact that I am not baptized means no way it can be,

Well why didn't you say it before ?
Not baptized, not willing to do so, well, it is not impossible but difficult. My advice - go there and personalty assure them that you will respect your wife religion and you will not object to your and your wife children being baptized.
poland_
19 May 2011 #42
I'm pretty sure the Catholic church sees people married in a protestant church as married... but it doesn't accept the divorce

You would be wrong, the catholic church only views people who are married in a catholic church as married before God.

since u are already married is it not possible for your wife to wear white and u both simply repeat your wedding vows. or is this what u are doing ?

just asking.

She can wear white, a north American colleague of mine went through the same process as the OP about 18 months ago
Ironside 50 | 10,907
19 May 2011 #43
the catholic church only views people who are married in a catholic church as married before God.

Nope, you are wrong !
OP coppermouse 16 | 62
19 May 2011 #44
I never said I was unwilling to be baptized, it just wont be possible in this time frame and I would have to have other things like confirmation, I am not opposed to it. Also I already agreed on this application to respect her religion and have children baptized
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,443
19 May 2011 #45
Sure, aphro an expert on bribe, is that the reason that you left Canada ?

the Polish priest has a price and it is common knowledge (if only among Poles), if you want to be in denial it is not my problem:). I know it is sad, I agree with you.
poland_
19 May 2011 #46
Nope, you are wrong !

No I am not, As I posted above a colleague of mine went through a very similar process and I watched it happen every step of the way, until the day he was married. The only difference was he was baptized in the Catholic church age 6 months, at the age of twenty six he was married in a Anglican church and they divorced six years later. When he met with the priests here in Poland he was told, the Catholic church does not recognize a marriage in any other church than a Catholic church. After a lot of paper work and translation of documents all worked out fine. She walked down the aisle all in white.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
19 May 2011 #47
My, aren't you a kind soul. And how very christian of you to phrase it just that way.

I'm into Old Testament, God nuked two cities filled with fags so me being rude on these boards is nothing.
poland_
19 May 2011 #48
the Polish priest has a price and it is common knowledge, if you want to be in denial it is not my problem:)

Aphro: I would question this I know at least three foreigners married to Poles who had to go through a lot of jumping through hoops to make it happen, if it was so easy as a bung they would probably have taken the easy route, but nothing like that was on offer. So I would say it is just the anti Catholic bashers spreading their rumors of corruption in the Church.

I'm into Old Testament, God nuked two cities filled with fags so me being rude on these boards is nothing.

I guess those bombs originate from Israel then.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,443
19 May 2011 #49
So I would say it is just the anti Catholic bashers spreading their rumors of corruption in the Church.

sure, you are right;).
Ironside 50 | 10,907
19 May 2011 #50
I never said I was unwilling to be baptized, it just wont be possible in this time frame and I would have to have other things like confirmation, I am not opposed to it. Also I already agreed on this application to respect her religion and have children baptized

I suppose you need to go there in person.

No I am not, As I posted above a colleague of mine went through a very similar process and I watched it happen every step of the way, until the day he was married

Well, I know somebody married in Anglican Church no problems, with OK from CC, all legal, thought he didn't divorce as yet.
So, I think that either it was a long time ago , or the priest in question was misinformed, or there is something I don't know.

the Polish priest has a price and it is common knowledge (if only among Poles)

it is BS! what else is a common knowledge, do you agree with all that ?
Harry
20 May 2011 #51
it appears this wedding at the end of June is not going to happen.

Seriously dude, just hire an actor and tell him he's playing the part of a priest.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
20 May 2011 #52
Aphro: I would question this I know at least three foreigners married to Poles who had to go through a lot of jumping through hoops to make it happen, if it was so easy as a bung they would probably have taken the easy route, but nothing like that was on offer. So I would say it is just the anti Catholic bashers spreading their rumors of corruption in the Church.

Make that four.

You would be wrong, the catholic church only views people who are married in a catholic church as married before God.

I'm not so sure you know - it was told to me (not being Catholic) that any marriage before God disqualifies you in their eyes.

Probably depends on the interpretation of the priest that's handling the licence, anyway.
Harry
20 May 2011 #53
Probably depends on the interpretation of the priest that's handling the licence, anyway.

And there we have the crunch: when the church needs a new roof (as it always does) and somebody is offering to donate, interpretations can change.
OP coppermouse 16 | 62
20 May 2011 #54
I would donate, but she refuses.
The thing that pisses me off is that they said it was ok at beginning and we went through whole application etc... . then they say no after we send invitations etc.....
ShortHairThug - | 1,103
20 May 2011 #55
We know that it clearly was not a Catholic ceremony

Duh.

which means that in the eyes of the Catholic church he has never been legally married.

Once again you talk out of your blow hole. Protestant wedding is viewed just the same as Catholic wedding by RCC. Perhaps I should rephrase this so even you can understand this simple concept “it’s all kosher”.

When I say "do this to them", I mean first they said this document from the court was acceptable and now it is not.

As far as the civil wedding goes this document most certainly is but since you mentioned a Methodist priest you must clarify. What’s a big deal to obtain in writing a simple statement testifying that you have never been married in Methodist church instead a ******** here? This simple statement would make your problems go away and make your life lass complicated.

Maybe in the future something can change but it appears this wedding at the end of June is not going to happen.

It certainly won’t not the way you take care of your affairs, besides you haven’t mentioned premarital counseling yet, that takes some time too you know.

I never said I was unwilling to be baptized, it just wont be possible in this time frame and I would have to have other things like confirmation,

With this statement you prove yourself to be a troll once again; a little knowledge on the subject at hand goes a long way. Let me explain:

1) The only requirement that you have to meet in order to have a wedding in CC is to have the sacrament of baptism.
2) As an adult joining the ranks of CC you would receive three of the sacraments the baptism, communion and confirmation all at once.
Besides having not been confirmed only disqualifies you from certain duties you may or may not perform in CC. As far as having a wedding there’s no problem but you cannot be someone’s Godfather. To do this you do have to be confirmed.

You would be wrong, the catholic church only views people who are married in a catholic church as married before God.

Not true, a Catholic can be wed in an Orthodox and Protestant church and his marriage recognized by RCC as lawful wedding if he/she receives a permission from the bishop. There are plenty of people who want to get married with people of different faith (Love is Love and one can’t help who he may fall in Love with) and not change their faith as a result hence the provision.

I'm not so sure you know - it was told to me (not being Catholic) that any marriage before God disqualifies you in their eyes.

Utter BS but I’m somehow not surprised by this kind of statements coming from you and your sidekick Harry.

Probably depends on the interpretation of the priest that's handling the licence, anyway

There’s only one interpretation. Was he or was he Not previously wad in the church which would make it a lawful marriage in the eyes of the RCC. If he was, was the marriage annulled? Those are very important questions that need to be answered. Same as in civil ceremony you can’t be married twice. Without divorce papers no city hall will perform this ceremony same applies here and no amount of donation (a bribe if that’s what you prefer to call it) will change that but I’m sure it will be gladly received.

So to you and Harry or any other moron calling for a bribe; God Blass your kind souls my sons and daughters for your generosity, thanks to you the roof in need of repairs will get fixed after all. Lord sure works in the mysterious ways indeed. LOL
sobieski 107 | 2,128
20 May 2011 #56
And there we have the crunch: when the church needs a new roof (as it always does) and somebody is offering to donate, interpretations can change.

Exactly, the polish church has its price for everything - preferably in cash. After all they did not mind to employ SB agents in the Komisja MajÄ…tkowa. Look in every Polish village who has the nicest house....
Harry
20 May 2011 #57
Protestant wedding is viewed just the same as Catholic wedding by RCC.

If it is viewed just the same, why is there the need to get permission from a bishop? As you say:

a Catholic can be wed in an Orthodox and Protestant church and his marriage recognized by RCC as lawful wedding if he/she receives a permission from the bishop.

Could you perhaps make your mind up?

Was he or was he Not previously wad in the church which would make it a lawful marriage in the eyes of the RCC.

Can you actually read? He has said that he was married in a park and it was a civil ceremony.

you and Harry or any other moron

Says one who is too cretinous to be able to read.

The thing that pisses me off is that they said it was ok at beginning and we went through whole application etc... . then they say no after we send invitations etc.....

Once you are locked in, you're much more likely to pay up.
Seriously dude, just hire an actor and tell everybody that he is an Opus Dei priest.
poland_
20 May 2011 #58
Not true, a Catholic can be wed in an Orthodox and Protestant church and his marriage recognized by RCC as lawful wedding if he/she receives a permission from the bishop.

That makes sense to me, but it was NOT the issue we are debating if a divorced non Catholic can get married in a Catholic Church.

There are plenty of people who want to get married with people of different faith (Love is Love and one can’t help who he may fall in Love with) and not change their faith as a result hence the provision.

No one has suggested changing faith in order to get married quite the opposite. If you change your faith in order to get married you are being a complete hypocrite anyway.

I'm not so sure you know - it was told to me (not being Catholic) that any marriage before God disqualifies you in their eyes. Probably depends on the interpretation of the priest that's handling the licence, anyway.

I know Polish Catholic woman, who was married in the Church here in Poland, then divorced, she had the marriage annulled and re married again in the Catholic church here in Poland. So you have to know the rules.

Her husband turned out to be a complete alcoholic and she divorced him on these grounds.
z_darius 14 | 3,968
20 May 2011 #59
The whole recognition issue by RC may be a pretty complicated thing. For instance, during commie times, a priest would not marry two people if they didn't have have civil marriages papers first. The reason was that RC marriage alone was not legally recognized by the government.

So one way of looking at it is that RC will recognize ALL marriages, but those marriages will not necessarily be recognized before God. The God thing is what warszawski mentioned and this is an important part that seems to have gone largely unnoticed. Further to that, RC church won't marry two people if one is still married, even outside any religion. At that point it's not a question of dogma but civil law that the Church would be breaking by allowing polygamy (depending on the country).

It may (stress on MAY) be a case that a priest could decide he wants to sea a divorce instituted by the same authority that had previously married the couple.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
20 May 2011 #60
I know Polish Catholic woman, who was married in the Church here in Poland, then divorced, she had the marriage annulled and re married again in the Catholic church here in Poland. So you have to know the rules.

Yeah, that's quite normal - a good question would be over whether or not the Catholic Church would recognise an annulment made by a non-Catholic church? The answer must be in canon law somewhere.... as far as I can tell - the RCC is demanding that they go through the RCC annulment process regardless.

Utter BS but I’m somehow not surprised by this kind of statements coming from you and your sidekick Harry.

Sorry pal, but I actually had a rather in-depth discussion with a priest in recent weeks concerning this very issue - the RCC considers marriage to be binding regardless of who performs it. Check canon law - but that's too difficult, isn't it?

There’s only one interpretation. Was he or was he Not previously wad in the church which would make it a lawful marriage in the eyes of the RCC. If he was, was the marriage annulled?

And you think a few (more than a few, really - more like 20-30k) wouldn't get a blind eye turned to past issues, provided the paperwork was correct?

There's plenty of mysterious high profile annulments in the RCC - nothing new there.


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