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Polish couples living out of wedlock?


Ziemowit 13 | 4,202
23 Nov 2012 #31
Recently my friend had to get her son baptised to get in to a school in Ireland.

That's amazing and means that the parent(s) has/have to produce a certficate from the Church that proves that.

Or was her son turned down by the school on any other formal excuse? Or was it a Catholic school which by law may be entitled to do that?
johnb121 4 | 184
23 Nov 2012 #32
An Irish Catholic couple I know in London wanted to get their son into a Catholic high school (in London) and could only get an interview with a recommendation from their priest - which they could only get after several months of regular (frequent) church attendance.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
23 Nov 2012 #33
Or was her son turned down by the school on any other formal excuse?

They were turned down by several schools only for not being baptized, their son is four years old.

Or was it a Catholic school which by law may be entitled to do that?

It's very different in Ireland.
Most schools in Ireland are Catholic schools and the church has a very long history of doing whatever the heck they want with impunity.

Our state couldn't afford to educate the country, so the church filled that void.

National schools date back to the introduction of state primary education in 1831. They are usually controlled by a board of management under diocesan patronage and often include a local clergyman.[9][10] The term "national school" has of late become partly synonymous with primary school in some parts. Recently, there have been calls from many sides for fresh thinking in the areas of funding and governance for such schools, with some wanting them to be fully secularised.

It's easy to spot discrimination, all you do is swap an irrelevant detail and imagine the effect.
If a secular school was not to accept a child because he was baptised, there would be WWIII
OP polonius 54 | 420
23 Nov 2012 #34
Nobody has to go to a Catholic school.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
23 Nov 2012 #35
If my taxes were not going to Catholic schools, I would agree.
But they are and to religion classes in normal schools and a whole list of other religious crap that I don't want to sign up for.
jon357 63 | 15,440
23 Nov 2012 #36
Nobody has to go to a Catholic school.

That's somewhat disingenuous given that RCC clergy are admitted into state schools and that the option of having Ethics lessons rather than religious instruction often exists only in theory.
OP polonius 54 | 420
23 Nov 2012 #37
Anglo-Celtic penury is a well-known fact: My taxes, my money, my penny-pinching this, that or the other thing...
But if we are to play that game, some Americans complain that their tax dollars are going to bankroll (male-bashing) gender studies, (Pole-bashing) holocaust studies and many other PC-slanted ideologies at state universities.
NorthMancPolak 4 | 648
23 Nov 2012 #38
Which pretty much sums up your real agenda, doesn't it.
Marysienka 1 | 195
23 Nov 2012 #39
As for "living in sin" and not baptising children - if they are not Catholic (or Christian for that matter) why should they?

As for schools. It's quite a problem for Catholics too, with religion at school when it started it was easier, and then things changed and now it's complicated wiht paying for reliigion classes, teachers, arithmetic mean, "etyka" classes and more.

"Szkoły społeczne" on the other hand are simple bussiness. If you want to you could create one without religion that accepts only out of wedlock kids.

"Szkoły publiczne" - what was said about not accepting child with not married parents should not have happened. There is no excuse for such teacher, I think it's against the law.
Harry
23 Nov 2012 #40
Given that the topic of this thread is 'out of wedlock', could the OP be so kind as to explain why any school, let alone one which is state funded, should be allowed to discriminate against children who are born out of wedlock? Of course if that subject is off topic for ths thread, I'm happy to staRt another one about that aspect of 'out of wedlock'.
natasia 3 | 368
23 Nov 2012 #41
Get married if you love her. If you have no confidence in the relationship - then you are just under a shelter, not a home.

That seems sensible to me. I like that.

And being married does make a Catholic Polish life simpler, at least.

If one wants to live a Catholic Polish life.
sa11y 5 | 331
24 Nov 2012 #42
Natasia, I'm pretty sure Harry is neiter Catholic or Polish...
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
24 Nov 2012 #43
It was not a public school: it is entirely state funded

If it was a state school, then 1) the parents should not be required to jump through hoops (like undergo interviews etc) to enrol their child in the first place (state schools are under the obligation to accept students from their catchment area);

2) the question of the parents' marital status was neither here nor there.
The parents in question should kick up a huge fuss and lodge a formal complaint with the Kuratorium. Did they?
What is the name and number of this school, by the way?

So the school you talked about so vehemently doesn't exist after all, does it, Harry? ;-p
Harry
25 Nov 2012 #44
What makes you say that Magda? Your knowledge of Warsaw schools is clearly lacking if you think that all schools automatically take all would be pupils who live in the catchment area. But that's to be expected as you don't live in Warsaw and don't have kids going to Warsaw schools. Guess where I live.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
25 Nov 2012 #45
What makes you say that Magda?

I for one went to school in Warsaw. A state school is a state school - they might not have enough places (in which case they should assist you in finding a school place somewhere else) but they cannot pick and choose their pupils. My children have attended primary state schools in Poland as well - admittedly not in Warsaw, but again, all state schools are governed by the same rules.

To the first class of primary school managed by the municipality of public school or other belonging to a network of primary schools (which is determined by the municipality) accepted are:

ex officio - children residing in the periphery of the primary school;
at the request of parents (legal guardians) - children residing outside the perimeter of the school, where the school has places available.)

To the first class of public gymnasium managed by the municipality or other units belonging to a network of gymnasiums (which is determined by the municipality) accepted are:

ex officio - primary school graduates residing in the circuit of the high school;
at the request of parents (legal guardians) - primary school graduates residing outside the perimeter of the gymnasium, where the gymnasium has free places.

kuratorium.waw.pl/pl/news/471/og%C3%B3lne-zasady-rekrutacji-do-szk%C3%B3%C5%82.html

Unless the school you mentioned is not really a state school, which I strongly suspect. BTW, did the parents complain to the Kuratorium about the treatment they had received? And could you kindly provide me with the name and number of this school?
Lenka 3 | 2,181
25 Nov 2012 #46
What do you think of Polish couples living in sin, bringing out-of-wedlock babies into the world and not even bothering to baptise them? Why do you think so?

Because that's the way they want it?I wouldn't baptise my child as well.
Harry
25 Nov 2012 #47
And there you have it Magda, not enough places. None of the good schools in Warsaw have enough places (which is one of the reasons step-daughter two is at a semi-private school). I can't give you the name or number as I never knew it. I very much doubt the parents complained, what would be the point?
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
25 Nov 2012 #48
I very much doubt the parents complained, what would be the point?

Well if a state school was acting illegally by not accepting a pupil due to religious reasons, and not because of a lack of places, the Kuratorium would have been able to resolve this to the satisfaction of the parents. Also, why would the school come up with such an outlandish excuse (you're not married so no joy) if there actually was a rational excuse (lack of places). I just don't believe the story I am afraid.
Ant63 11 | 403
25 Nov 2012 #49
I just don't believe the story I am afraid.

How typically Polish of you again Magdalena. :) It is so typical because nobody believes anything bad about Poland until it happens to them. Poland is a paradise, and when it all goes wrong its the sh*t hole from hell.

Its about time religion was banned from schools. Teaching mumbo jumbo should have been resigned to the past decades ago. Frightening children into believing is really not nice. Playing on childrens weaknesses is not nice. Look what happened to Polonious. The rules to which we should live our lives a firmly entrenched in law. Teach them law instead. Its less fanatical.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
25 Nov 2012 #50
It is so typical because nobody believes anything bad about Poland until it happens to them.

I would believe the story if either:
1) the school was not a state school, or
2) the excuse was not "you're not married"

I can believe in "bad things happening in Poland"; I just like those bad things to sound at least a tad logical (within the Polish system of doing things, whether bad or otherwise) ;-)
Ant63 11 | 403
25 Nov 2012 #51
To be honest I would believe almost anything that I wouldn't have believed about what happens in Poland, two years ago. It's not how I imagined Poland from the descriptions the girls who worked for me gave. I did wonder why they grumbled about going home for a fortnight. Not because I'm a hater, but from first hand experience. I now understand its a democracy firmly rooted in communism and religious ideology. It's a mess.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
25 Nov 2012 #52
It's a mess.

To you, Poland is a mess. The UK is largely a mess to me. Not because of any of these countries' inherent "messy" quality, but because you and I are outsiders and do not see the internal logic that exists within the system.

Also, I don't wanna split hairs here, but you cannot have "a democracy that's rooted in communism". It's either one or the other, I'm afraid.
FlaglessPole 4 | 669
25 Nov 2012 #53
Look what happened to Polonius

is a much better headline than 'Out of wedlock?' imho
OP polonius 54 | 420
25 Nov 2012 #54
Know of any country these days that is not a chaotic mess? Switrzerland? Liechtenstein? Certainly not Poland, Germany, France, Italy, UK, Spain, Mexico or the US!
Harry
25 Nov 2012 #55
Well if a state school was acting illegally by not accepting a pupil due to religious reasons, and not because of a lack of places, the Kuratorium would have been able to resolve this to the satisfaction of the parents.

ROFL! I see that you know exactly how state schools in Warsaw work, or at least you think you do. Unlike you, the mother in question works in the education sector in Warsaw (just as I did for a decade) and that is precisely why she didn't bother complaining about the school to the Kuratorium.

Also, why would the school come up with such an outlandish excuse (you're not married so no joy) if there actually was a rational excuse (lack of places).

The truth was that the kid was rejected because the parents were not married. If they had needed to, the school could have claimed that the problem was lack of places but given the way the state school system works, they'd never need to (except possibly to a journalist).

I can believe in "bad things happening in Poland";

But if it's a foreigner telling about them, you have to defend the Poland: how sadly predictable.

It's a mess.

As Poles will agree when speaking to each other. But if a foreigner makes exactly the same observations, those Poles have to 'defend Poland'.

I just like those bad things to sound at least a tad logical (within the Polish system of doing things, whether bad or otherwise)

As shown by 'polonius', open bigotry is very much what can be expected from some 'religious' morons.
zetigrek
25 Nov 2012 #56
Its about time religion was banned from schools. Teaching mumbo jumbo should have been resigned to the past decades ago. Frightening children into believing is really not nice. Playing on childrens weaknesses is not nice. Look what happened to Polonious. The rules to which we should live our lives a firmly entrenched in law. Teach them law instead. Its less fanatical.

Ant you don't have a clue how lessons of religion look like in Poland. I was attending them to my 18th birthsday (after which I signed out) and I don't recall anybody "frightening me into believing". Your views are views of some brought-up laic who was strongly manipulated against everything regarding religion. Less hate more tolerance. Of course church has its sins but it's not even half as evil as you believe.
Harry
25 Nov 2012 #57
you don't have a clue how lessons of religion look like in Poland. I was attending them to my 18th birthsday (after which I signed out) and I don't recall anybody "frightening me into believing".

Perhaps you missed that letter sent to a parish priest which made the news recently?

A day or two after I wrote the column, a friend of mine posted a photo on Facebook. It's a letter from his school sent to the local parish priest and reads as follows:

"INFORMATION: I wish to inform you that X, son of Y and Z, residing at ABC Street, has resigned from Religious Education classes in this school year. Please add this information to the parish files and in future draw the appropriate consequences." It's then signed by the priest running the RE classes.

Frankly, I find the whole thing utterly disgusting. The lack of separation between church and state is a shock, and the passing on of information from school to parish with an explicit threat attached is frankly very little different from the actions of secret police forces. What kind of organisation maintains a record of the actions and choices of a fourteen year old? It's repellent.

new poland express

Just like Magdalena I can't think of any public school which would be a catholic school.

St. Dominik Savio in Lubin is a private school, is it? How much are the parents paying for their kids to lick cream off the knees of a priest?
zetigrek
25 Nov 2012 #58
Perhaps you missed that letter sent to a parish priest which made the news recently?

Yes I've missed it and I can ensure you that no letter was sent to my parish after my resignation from religion lessons in high school. Even my parents didn't know that :)

Edit.
Alright I've just checked it and it turns out that there are something like public Catholic schools. I didn't know that, nice to learn a new thing.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
25 Nov 2012 #59
St. Dominik Savio in Lubin is a private school, is it?

Well, it's definitely not a state school:

gimnazjum-lubin.salezjanie.pl

Check it out!

Unlike you, the mother in question works in the education sector in Warsaw (just as I did for a decade) and that is precisely why she didn't bother complaining about the school to the Kuratorium.

Well, forgive me but that's a dumb attitude because in this way nothing's ever gonna change. You should complain about the mother's attitude as much as you do about the school's - or not complain at all.
Lenka 3 | 2,181
25 Nov 2012 #60
The truth was that the kid was rejected because the parents were not married.

That's piece of...something smelly.Do you really want us to believe that public school refused a child because his/her parents weren't married?When was that?In 1925?

I want to add that my family has beed working in schools for last 4 decades.


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