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Mixed race girl in Poland, good idea?


enkidu 7 | 623
7 Mar 2010 #61
The whole insinuation is racist, enkidu. Blacks call themselves 'nig*a' and it's ok. Whites could call one another cracker. But to say Czarnuchu to a black guy is not nice at all, it singles out his colour.

That simply because as a Polish I see no shame in the fact that somebody is black. For that reason I can't see nothing wrong in describing somebody as such. And I've never said this is nice. The same way - describing some overweight person as "fatty" wouldn't be nice. But we are not talking about what is nice and what is not. We are talking about racism.

In my eyes (and I think I can speak in the name of majority of Poles) - racism is not about being nice or not. It's not about name-calling, liking or disliking. Racism started when someone dehumanize some group of people and deny them a status and right of human. This is non-existent in Polish culture.

And Matowy - I also think there is nothing wrong if someone dislike certain people or group of people. You don't have to love all the Humanity simply to prove that you are not racists.
beelzebub - | 444
7 Mar 2010 #62
That simply because as a Polish I see no shame in the fact that somebody is black

But you can't project your view in this case onto the entire culture..it is YOUR view and the view of others in Poland for sure but many others do not think that way. Anytime someone says the culture overall is a bit racist people run in and say "no it's not..I don't think that way". As an outsider who observed it for a long time the CULTURE is racist. But rather than accepting reality they start defending the great pride of Poland.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
7 Mar 2010 #63
Enkidu enkidu! For starters, there is sth wrong when sb dislikes certain groups of people. Why not judge people as individuals and not mention their colour at all?

If you want to get smart about it, you should draw a dichotomy between racialism and racism. Czarnuch is a racist term, przyznaj to.
Matowy - | 295
7 Mar 2010 #64
That simply because as a Polish I see no shame in the fact that somebody is black. For that reason I can't see nothing wrong in describing somebody as such. And I've never said this is nice. The same way - describing some overweight person as "fatty" wouldn't be nice. But we are not talking about what is nice and what is not. We are talking about racism.

I have already said that the word "black" is not remotely racist in most contexts, as it is both a method of identification and a racial designation. In the UK you will find it on any form that asks you to state your ethnicity.

In my eyes (and I think I can speak in the name of majority of Poles) - racism is not about being nice or not. It's not about name-calling, liking or disliking. Racism started when someone dehumanize some group of people and deny them a status and right of human. This is non-existent in Polish culture.

No, that de-humanization is a specific type of modern racism that came about through slavery and pseudo-scientific ideologies such as Nazism. It is not the sole definition of racism, and certainly did not begin there.

And Matowy - I also think there is nothing wrong if someone dislike certain people or group of people. You don't have to love all the Humanity simply to prove that you are not racists.

There is most certainly something wrong with it. If I hate Polish people, simply because they're Polish, then I am basically saying that I hate 40 million people who I have never met based on next to nothing. There is nothing wrong with it in that it is personal choice, but you cannot say that it is right or proper.

The most common type of racism is assuming that someone's ethnicity determines what kind of person they are. This is obviously incorrect for reasons I don't even need to mention. This is not about "loving all humanity", it's about common sense and respect. It is both unintelligent and disrespectful to judge someone solely by their ethnicity. You can dislike them for all sorts of reasons, but race has got to be one of the dumbest reasons to not like someone.
enkidu 7 | 623
7 Mar 2010 #65
Enkidu enkidu! For starters, there is sth wrong when sb dislikes certain groups of people. Why not judge people as individuals and not mention their colour at all?

If you want to get smart about it, you should draw a dichotomy between racialism and racism. Czarnuch is a racist term, przyznaj to.

I hate telemarketers. All of them. I have in contempt all supporters of Polonia-Bydgoszcz speedway club. If I think hard enough - there are a lot of groups of people that I like... let's say: less then the others. Nothing wrong with that. I don't deny them right to live. I don't see them as animals or something. I just like them less than the others. This is my right.

And - Czarnuch is racist term only if somebody really hard want it to be racist. There is no cultural context in this word. Its empty.
Trevek 26 | 1,702
7 Mar 2010 #66
Interesting, one of the major novelists of 20th Century, who wrote about Black African tribesmen in Africa was Polish (Conrad).

One of the major figures of early anthropology, and pioneer of long-term fieldwork (because he had to sit on an island because he had Austrian citizenship) was Polish, and wrote such classics as "The sex-lives of savages".
Seanus 15 | 19,706
7 Mar 2010 #67
miejski.pl/slowo-Czarnuch I can get more if you wish. It is racist.

So you are the hateful type then?

I was clearly referring to coloured folk if you read on.
Nika 2 | 507
7 Mar 2010 #68
And - Czarnuch is racist term only if somebody really hard want it to be racist. There is no cultural context in this word. Its empty.

oh come on enkidu! Czarnuch is a racist term! And no, there is no cultural context to it what-so-ever, it's a stupid, insulting word!
enkidu 7 | 623
7 Mar 2010 #69
hmiejski.pl/slowo-Czarnuch, I can get more if you wish. It is racist.
So you are the hateful type then?
I was clearly referring to coloured folk if you read on.

I never stated that this word is not used to describe a black person. It is. Also: czarny, murzyn, mahoniowy, opalony etc. There is nothing wrong to describe somebody's skin colour. To pretend that you can't see the color - that is wrong.

This word Czarnuch has no cultural contexts in Polish language.

BTW: You can also describe a white (or any other colored person) with this word. Other meaning is: somebody who work very hard for a very little gratitude.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
7 Mar 2010 #70
Anyone need a flimsy defence lawyer? ;0 ;)

Look, it's racist and that's that. OK, why would you want to describe sb's skin colour in the first place?

It has a very definite cultural context at football matches or is that suddenly not a part of Polish culture?

I can see the colour, and what?

So is czarnuch a racial classification then? What is it, a general adjective?
Trevek 26 | 1,702
8 Mar 2010 #71
I think Jem got quite good value for her first post on PF!

Anyway, goodnight guys
enkidu 7 | 623
8 Mar 2010 #72
Anyone need a flimsy defence lawyer? ;0 ;)

Oh come on. Personal attacks are never a good way to reach any conclusion.

Look, it's racist and that's that. OK, why would you want to describe sb's skin colour in the first place?
It has a very definite cultural context at football matches or is that suddenly not a part of Polish culture?

I see you are beginning to understand. Skin colour is one of many attributes that any person can have. One can be tall or short, red-haired, blue-eyed, black or white, nice looking or not very handsome. You can describe any person in hundreds of ways. Skin colour is just one of attributes (at least in Poland) - not better and certainly not worse way to describe someone.

I can see the colour, and what?

Well - if you can see the colour but for some reasons you pretend you don't and you refrain to decribe some person by it (especially - if it's the only black guy on the field) then it's imply that you see something shameful or insulting in this particular person's skin shade. And that is racists.

So is czarnuch a racial classification then? What is it, a general adjective?

Is one of many way to say "This is a black guy and nothing wrong with that".

The most common type of racism is assuming that someone's ethnicity determines what kind of person they are.

French are nation of lovers.
Germans like everything clean and in order.
Czech are laid back - they love beer.
Italians are noisy and hot-tempered.
Poles are great at improvisation.
Gypsies are travelers and musicians.
Nigerians are good at marathons.

Which of this statement is racists and why?

You see - Matowy. You can't deny that people are different. Chineese are not the same as Africans or Europeans. Western culture in order to fight "racism" pretend that all people are the same, robbing them of identity and individlity. Basically - the Political Correct answer to racism is: "Lets pretend that we all are white".

In Poland we see it other way. People are different and shall be proud of it. That is why we are freely call black guy a black. We expect him to being proud of it. Exactly the same way that I am a proud white Pole.
convex 20 | 3,978
8 Mar 2010 #73
Which of this statement is racists and why?

How about "Lazy thieving Polak"? Is that racist? It's not when I'm drinking with friends. It is when I'm screaming it in the neighborhood after my car was just broken into. Right?
enkidu 7 | 623
8 Mar 2010 #74
You have got every right to your own opinion.
What you screaming is your own business. Its just words.
Of course - any passing by Polish guy have got every right to his own opinion about your opinion. He may even express his opinion by kicking your ass.

Nothing racists about that.
convex 20 | 3,978
8 Mar 2010 #75
So if i'm walking with my buddy, we hear czarnuch, it'd be alright to beat the holy hell out of the person that mouthed it? I mean, he's offended and all..
Matowy - | 295
8 Mar 2010 #76
French are nation of lovers.
Germans like everything clean and in order.
Czech are laid back - they love beer.
Italians are noisy and hot-tempered.
Poles are great at improvisation.
Gypsies are travelers and musicians.
Nigerians are good at marathons.

Which of this statement is racists and why?

Those are national stereotypes. Not racist, just poorly conceived.

You see - Matowy. You can't deny that people are different.

Never have done. I don't divide people based on country or ethnicity, though. I divide them based on personal merit. I realise that people who are lazy and naive like to divide the world into black and white extremes, but that is not how I choose to do things.

Western culture in order to fight "racism" pretend that all people are the same, robbing them of identity and individlity. Basically - the Political Correct answer to racism is: "Lets pretend that we all are white".

Race is a superficial detail, so I fail to see how it factors into "individuality" except as a fashion statement. In fact, conforming to standards set by your country or ethnicity is the very epitome of non-individuality. If some people are so boring and lifeless that they need to derive identity and sense of self from their country or ethnicity, then I would name that person a simplistic fool, and nothing less.

In Poland we see it other way. People are different and shall be proud of it. That is why we are freely call black guy a black. We expect him to being proud of it. Exactly the same way that I am a proud white Pole.

I have repeatedly stated that the word "black" is something inoffensive and acceptable as a common term to describe a black person. I do not know why you keep bringing it up.
enkidu 7 | 623
8 Mar 2010 #77
So if i'm walking with my buddy, we hear czarnuch, it'd be alright to beat the holy hell out of the person that mouthed it? I mean, he's offended and all..

Mentioned above The Great Polish Code of Conduct specifically stated that decision if somebody feels offended is entirely at offended person's discretion. In order to be offended by the word "czarnuch" you don't even need to be black. Or by any other word.

Attachment to The Conduct called : "How to behave in backstreet on the Saturday night" instructs that if someone decide to feel offended without any verbal provocation he shall choose the offender, look straight in his eyes and start conversation:

- Co się, k**wa gapisz? (What the hell are you looking at?)
The designated offender shall not try to calm down the situation. Instead he shall answer:
- A co k**wa? (Hard to translate. Maybe: At your service, sir)
Then the both sides are free to express their opinions in more physical way.

I remember once that far from behind me I've heard "Eeeee... pedały" (Hey gays! - plural form used to describe homosexuals). I am not a gay. I was alone. Nonetheless I've decided to investigate if I have a reason to be offended. After rather long walk I did find this merry gang and asked:

- A co k**wa?
These young gentlemen explained to me that until now, they weren't aware of my existence and certainly this initial remark about homosexuals wasn't used to offend me. But - since I already was here (a little offended - as I decided) ... We decided to express our opinions in more physical way.

This is very interesting subject, but I am afraid has little in common with our discussion about racism.
beelzebub - | 444
8 Mar 2010 #78
You keep stating that it is not racism in many cases because the offender means no offense. I think everyone knows what is offensive and what not. Pretending innocence is weak.
enkidu 7 | 623
8 Mar 2010 #79
Being rude, offensive and aggressive is not the same as being racist. Being nice and kind doesn't equal of being tolerant and open-minded. I am sorry, I have to repeat this. Few post ago I described precisely my understanding of phenomena of "racism".

Matowy - until you decide to stay on topic an refrain of expressing your opinions about myself - I consider discussion with you as closed.
convex 20 | 3,978
8 Mar 2010 #80
Being rude, offensive and aggressive is not the same as being racist.

When you're rude, offensive, or aggressive in reaction to someones skin color, that's racism.
beelzebub - | 444
8 Mar 2010 #81
Being rude, offensive and aggressive is not the same as being racist. Being nice and kind doesn't equal of being tolerant and open-minded. I am sorry, I have to repeat this. Few post ago I described precisely my understanding of phenomena of "racism".

Convex said exactly what I wanted to. Seems you don't get this part.
Matowy - | 295
8 Mar 2010 #82
Matowy - until you decide to stay on topic an refrain of expressing your opinions about myself - I consider discussion with you as closed.

I have expressed no opinions about you thus far.

Being rude, offensive and aggressive is not the same as being racist. Being nice and kind doesn't equal of being tolerant and open-minded. I am sorry, I have to repeat this. Few post ago I described precisely my understanding of phenomena of "racism".

That would be why I said this on the last page:

I think it has little to do with where someone is from, as much as it is to do with what someone is like. There are good and bad people from every place, and there are open-minded and small-minded people from every place as well.

enkidu 7 | 623
8 Mar 2010 #83
When you're rude, offensive, or aggressive in reaction to someones skin color, that's racism.

Come on - how can you be aggressive in reaction to colour? Any colour? That is mad.
Of course - I can hate a person. Maybe dislike a dog. But colour? Nah - I haven't got any personal feelings towards colours.

For instance - if I get tanned - should I dislike myself? Crazy idea.
beelzebub - | 444
8 Mar 2010 #84
You are either being purposefully obtuse or you are dense. Do you really think it is the actual color of the skin that people are making a scene over? It is the idea, stereotype, rumors, culture etc that goes along with it.
convex 20 | 3,978
8 Mar 2010 #85
Come on - how can you be aggressive in reaction to colour? Any colour? That is mad.
Of course - I can hate a person. Maybe dislike a dog. But colour? Nah - I haven't got any personal feelings towards colours.
For instance - if I get tanned - should I dislike myself? Crazy idea.

You are aware that there is racism in the world right? You understand that concept? That someone can be attacked because of the color of their skin? That some people treat others differently based on the color of their skin. Some are even singled out because of their nationality, or their religion. That happens today. It's happened all throughout history. If you're sitting on a tram and someone starts making comments about monkeys running wild in Poland, guess what, racist.

It's not the comment that is the problem, it's who it's targeted at, and why. If the criteria on whether to call someone a c*nt or not lies with the color of the persons skin, that is racist.

Back to the original question, there are much, much, much more racist places in the world than Poland. You probably aren't going to have much of a problem on a visit other than being treated as a curiosity every once in a while.
enkidu 7 | 623
8 Mar 2010 #86
You are either being purposefully obtuse or you are dense. Do you really think it is the actual color of the skin that people are making a scene over? It is the idea, stereotype, rumors, culture etc that goes along with it.

I am quite happy, that you said that. This is exactly my point for whole discussion.
I don't pretend that Poles are angel-like open minded persons in general. We simply haven't got historical opportunity to develop any "ideas, stereotypes, rumors, culture etc" about other races or cultures because we haven't got any contact with them. In 20 years it may change. Even racism takes time to develop.

For instance we had some contact with Jews. And some people think that we are antisemits. Maybe they're right. Or with Gypsies. But - thats all! No colonies, no slave trade etc.

Therefore a real racism is rather new idea in Poland.

You are aware that there is racism in the world right? You understand that concept? That someone can be attacked because of the color of their skin? That some people treat others differently based on the color of their skin. Some are even singled out because of their nationality, or their religion. That happens today. It's happened all throughout history. If you're sitting on a tram and someone starts making comments about monkeys running wild in Poland, guess what, racist.

It's not the comment that is the problem, it's who it's targeted at, and why. If the criteria on whether to call someone a c*nt or not lies with the color of the persons skin, that is racist.

I am aware of this. But I don't believe that colour of the skin has anything to do with racism. In India there are "lower castes". In Japan - Buraku communities. They looks exactly like the rest of the population. Racism towards them is still very strong. The racism is when somebody consider other people or group of people of being half-human and deny them rights an respect. Exept some loony-psychos, this situation is non-existent in Poland. Even more - It never existed in the past.
convex 20 | 3,978
8 Mar 2010 #87
I am aware of this. But I don't believe that colour of the skin has anything to do with racism.

The skin color in this case is just used to identify that the person is of a different race.

Exept some loony-psychos, this situation is non-existent in Poland. Even more - It never existed in the past.

This is where you lose me completely.
Matowy - | 295
8 Mar 2010 #88
In India there are "lower castes". In Japan - Buraku communities. They looks exactly like the rest of the population.

From an external perspective there are no visible differences. An Indian or Japanese person would be able to look at someone and immediately determine their caste from ethnic features and skin tone + colour. Incidentally, the lower castes have the darkest skin, and the higher ones have the lightest. If anything, the Indian caste system is everything to do with colour. Black Americans also get better general treatment if their skin tone is light, as opposed to an African type black.

Therefore a real racism is rather new idea in Poland.

Then why does Poland have a reputation for being a bad place for black people to visit? Even this thread is evidence of that.

Except some loony-psychos, this situation is non-existent in Poland. Even more - It never existed in the past.

A narrow textbook definition of a certain type of racism. That is not the entire definition of racism, it only describes a certain kind that has risen in the West through slavery and Nazism.
enkidu 7 | 623
8 Mar 2010 #89
This is where you lose me completely.

In our tradition (Polish, Catholic - I am not sure how to call it) there is no room for real racism. Even enemy has a immortal soul which makes him human. Therefore no one can be half- or subhuman in Poland. Without this - real racism is simply impossible.

Maybe we will learn it in time. Along with "ideas, stereotypes, rumors, culture etc" about other races and cultures. Who knows?
Matowy - | 295
8 Mar 2010 #90
In our tradition (Polish, Catholic - I am not sure how to call it) there is no room for real racism.

That is so incredibly flawed. First you distort the definition of racism to mean only "considering others sub-human", then assert that since Poland is a Catholic country, nobody can be considered sub-human, therefore racism is not possible.

!!!

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