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Why is cheating at schools in Poland accepted?!


GoDfaTheR420 6 | 43
29 Apr 2009  #1
Why oh why is cheating accepted in schools??

I'm a teacher here...and some of the things I have seen have shocked me beyond words...eg..Teachers allowing students to go on a ''toilet break'' ....then following the student and passing on the answers!!!

My wife does ALL her younger brothers homework for him...not help...but actually completes the exercises!!!!!....and says its usual!!!

You can ''pay'' for better exam results!

Even private students that I teach cheat....they actuall pay for lessons....and CHEAT!!!

I have seen many threads on here....how to improve Poland etc...well start by stopping the cheating culture~!
pawian 154 | 8,597
29 Apr 2009  #3
I have seen many threads on here....how to improve Poland etc...well start by stopping the cheating culture~!

Yes, it should be stopped but it is too deeply rooted in Polish culture. If you know Polish history, with multiple occupations and foreign domination in the last 300 years, you should understand why Poles still see cheating as sth normal. It was one of their methods of self-defence- cheat an occupant.

Besides, the material to learn in Polish schools is beyond the capacity of an average student. It is commonly known that Polish students do things which in Western schools are done in next type of school, e..g, Polish primary students learn things which are taught in American or British high schools, and so on.

It is no wonder that having so much material to master, Polish students resort to cheating.

Read more: elt.britcoun.org.pl/elt/forum/code.htm

There is a deeply grounded conviction among Polish people that our problems with honesty and cheating are of historical origin. One source of this behaviour might be seen, as presented by a Polish cultural sociologist Żygulski (1975: 221), in Catholic patterns of upbringing. By suggesting a disregard for all earthly property it has not promoted order in social life nor care for one’s rights, as opposed to the Protestant belief that individual development and care for earthly property is a way of promoting one’s future salvation.

Some Poles also think that it might be the famous right of liberum veto (allowing any member of the 17th century Polish Parliament to break a parliamentary discussion for no stated reason) which promoted bad, undemocratic habits among lawmakers. This unfortunate right was one of the reasons for the Polish partitions which lasted for 123 years. During this period people tried to avoid or break the various rules imposed by Russians, Austrians and Prussians who ruled Poland at that time. The same situation happened during communist times after World War II. The communists created laws for Polish people, who then broke them and in this way opposed the foreign power, the Soviet Union.

ShelleyS 14 | 2,895
29 Apr 2009  #4
with multiple occupations and foreign domination in the last 300 years, you should understand why Poles still see cheating as sth normal. It was one of their methods of self-defence- cheat an occupant.

LOL, you just justified cheating...that's funny!

Besides, the material to learn in Polish schools is beyond the capacity of an average student.

How do they know, they dont "learn" they cheat!

Polish primary students learn things which are taught in American or British high schools, and so on

Where is your evidence?
Seanus 15 | 19,715
29 Apr 2009  #5
Pawian does have a point, though. Jewish merchants and all manner of others cheated Poles in the past. However, 2 wrongs don't make a right.

It's the same in the UK, pawian. You are swamped in schools, simultaneously studying many subjects. It's a nonsense really, I have learned to see through that BS.

There is cheating as I was witness to it. Still, the tests were flimsy and worthless so I let them do it.

If pawian meant that there was substantive overlap, then yes. There is bound to be some common ground on syllabi.
polishcanuck 7 | 462
29 Apr 2009  #6
My wife does ALL her younger brothers homework for him...not help...but actually completes the exercises!!!!!....and says its usual!!!

Kids in poland get too much homework. The educational system must be reformed in such a way that kids will be able to do most their work in the class room. Quality vs quantity.

I have seen many threads on here....how to improve Poland etc...well start by stopping the cheating culture~!

Hahaha good luck!
Ironside 47 | 9,587
29 Apr 2009  #7
I have seen many threads on here....how to improve Poland etc...well start by stopping the cheating culture~!

I agree it is disgrace and should be stoped.
porzeczka - | 102
29 Apr 2009  #8
Cheating isn't accepted in Poland! Please, don't make such unfair generalizations - you are implying some „cheating culture” and trying to explain it, there is no such thing as „cheating culture” in Poland. It's true that some students try to cheat, but no more than 5-15%.

What GoDfaTheR420 described is scandalous indeed, but very uncommon. I ended my primary and secondary school in Poland. Teachers were always very strict. Usually, at exams we had to sit individually, we had few versions of exam sheets/questions. If someone was spotted cheating or even looking in the wrong direction, this person automatically had to give back his/her work and got 1 (the lowest grade) and had to get out of classroom and was humiliated. I can't even imagine a teacher helping a student!

Paying for exams common? Definitely not. If any teacher or professor was caught on taking łapówka, his carrier would be broken! If someone is doing this, he must be hiding that very carefully like in every other country.

My wife does ALL her younger brothers homework for him...not help...but actually completes the exercises!!!!!....and says its usual!!!!

What your wife is doing is definitely not good, but really, that's not true it's normal in Poland. Although, I have to say, everywhere one can find some students trying to make their life easier. Look for example at yahoo answers where thousand of students from all over the world are posting, to make someone do their homework. If you think all students in Poland have such 'help' like you wife's brother, you are deeply mistaken. Majority of parents just don't have a time, wilingness (they want their children to actually learn something) or enough knowledge (they have forgotten some material from school). Even if they are helping, they're not doing whole homework for their children!

And, In Poland, exams aren't everything, you have to participate actively in a lesson (you got points for that), you have to answer teacher's questions, you have kartkówki (unannounced little exams - quiz?), projects, presetations. We don't get grades for nothing.

well start by stopping the cheating culture~!

How do they know, they dont "learn" they cheat!

I agree it is disgrace and should be stoped.

What are you doing here is creating another ugly myth about Poland, please don't do that.

I ask you, what do you really know about Polish schools? Were you educated here? I was. And I've been learning English in the Polish public school - that's the only source of my english 'skills' . There are probably very limited and I'm still making a lot of mistakes, but I wouldn't know English at all, if I was cheating at school.
pawian 154 | 8,597
29 Apr 2009  #9
LOL, you just justified cheating...that's funny!

I think I tried to explain, not justify. I am sorry you got such impression.... :):):)

How do they know, they dont "learn" they cheat!

Even brilliant hard-working students cheat.

pawian:
Polish primary students learn things which are taught in American or British high schools, and so on
Where is your evidence?

There are hundreds of stories on the Net or by word of mouth.
Polish students who migrate to America or Britain are considered stars or aces in schools there.
And the other way round too. One of my students who had spent a few years in US school, with many successes, with head teacher praising her extensively, was a mere E/F student in my class. There was even problem with her passing to a higher form.

So, if the US principal wished to have all his students like the Polish girl, while I was wondering how to tell her parents she might not pass to another form, it means sth. :):):)

Kids in poland get too much homework. The educational system must be reformed in such a way that kids will be able to do most their work in the class room. Quality vs quantity.

No. Homework is beneficial for students. :):)
Wroclaw 44 | 5,389
29 Apr 2009  #10
No. Homework is beneficial for students.

Only if it's an hour or so. The problem is that they are almost expected to learn at home.
I hardly think that it is right that the working day for adults is eight hours, but the school day, plus homework, can be longer.

you are implying some ''cheating culture''

It certainly exists.
porzeczka - | 102
29 Apr 2009  #11
It certainly exists.

But not necessarily in Poland.

amazon.com/Cheating-Culture-Americans-Doing-Wrong/dp/0151010188
Seanus 15 | 19,715
29 Apr 2009  #12
What an intelligent way of making the Polish education system appear high ;) ;) Get the smartest kiddo and everyone copies from them :)

And the latest GUS statistics reveal:

Paweł Nowak 93%
Ewa Wajda 93%
Monika Kus 93%
Bartek Kowal 93%
Kasia Burak 93%
Piotr Grelik 93%
Magda Baron 93%
Jacek Bąk 93%

Etc etc ;) ;)

And a big cry of 'dziękujemy, dziękujemy', LOL
porzeczka - | 102
29 Apr 2009  #13
What an intelligent way of making the Polish education system appear high ;) ;) Get the smartest kiddo and everyone copies from them :)

Ha ha, that's not very funny ;)
Seanus 15 | 19,715
29 Apr 2009  #14
Try telling that to the students :)
porzeczka - | 102
29 Apr 2009  #15
I'm deadly serious about this matter and I'll defend Polish students ;). So...where did you get this 'GUS statistics'? ;)
Seanus 15 | 19,715
29 Apr 2009  #16
No, widze właśnie ;) ;) Lubisz mrugać. Well, so will I then, so there!! :)

GUS statistics, w dupie, a co?
pawian 154 | 8,597
29 Apr 2009  #17
The problem is that they are almost expected to learn at home.

And that`s the way it should go. School hours are not enough to master the whole material. If a student wants to get to an elite school/uni, he/she must swot a lot at home.

If such an attitude like yours is prevalent in US or UK, then I know why Polish students do so well there. :):):)

I hardly think that it is right that the working day for adults is eight hours, but the school day, plus homework, can be longer.

Come on, school lasts from 8 am to 2 pm, about 6/7 lessons a day, each 45 minute long, with breaks in between. It is nothing. :):):) Plus homeowrk, it certainly isn`t more than 8 hours.

Even if it is, competition in the market is hard, those who aim at jobs better than a taxi-driver or shop-assistant must learn.
The problem is that many students don`t care, prefer cheating, and they only wake up when they finish school and get the first lousy wage for their menial job. Then such students organize demonstrations or strikes and demand better life but it is too late. :):)

g
porzeczka - | 102
29 Apr 2009  #18
GUS statistics, w dupie, a co?

Z dupy? From your ass? :P

No, widze właśnie

Very good Polish ;)
Seanus 15 | 19,715
29 Apr 2009  #19
Yeah, couldn't you tell? ;) Z dupy, exactly. Oops, basic mistake :)

Thank you, Żubrówka helps :)
delphiandomine 84 | 17,703
29 Apr 2009  #20
You can ''pay'' for better exam results!

Bollocks. There might be a lack of transparency to some extent in university tests, but how, exactly, do you propose to pay someone to pass the Secondary/High school exams, given that they're externally marked? The other exams barely count for anything.

The problem, and the only problem is a lack of a suitably harsh punishment for cheating in schools. Although I agree that the systematic approach to cheating is bad for Poland - they could solve the problem overnight by simply awarding a 1 for the entire year to anyone undeniably caught cheating. Likewise, universities could stamp it out by applying an automatic fail to the module in question.

Even private students that I teach cheat....they actuall pay for lessons....and CHEAT!!!

That's their choice to do so. If it makes them feel good, great - it's entirely their choice if they want to cheat or not. Certainly as paying customers, they have the right to cheat if they so want.

What you or I think about people cheating in private situations is neither here nor there - it's entirely a matter for the individual.
scrappleton - | 832
30 Apr 2009  #21
You foster a cheating culture with kids certainly it carries over into adulthood with corruption and bribes.
pgtx 29 | 3,160
30 Apr 2009  #22
Why oh why is cheating accepted in schools??

because they want to teach 'kombinatoryki'...
BritishEmpire - | 148
30 Apr 2009  #23
There are hundreds of stories on the Net or by word of mouth.
Polish students who migrate to America or Britain are considered stars or aces in schools there.
And the other way round too. One of my students who had spent a few years in US school, with many successes, with head teacher praising her extensively, was a mere E/F student in my class. There was even problem with her passing to a higher form.

I wonder pawian if you have spent any time thinking about these stories, maybe some are true but its very doubtful that the school they attended in the us/uk would have been of the same quality as they attended in poland.
freebird 3 | 532
30 Apr 2009  #24
Why oh why is cheating accepted in schools??

why not? Cheating is excepted all over Poland not only in schools.
OP GoDfaTheR420 6 | 43
30 Apr 2009  #25
That's their choice to do so. If it makes them feel good, great - it's entirely their choice if they want to cheat or not. Certainly as paying customers, they have the right to cheat if they so want.

What you or I think about people cheating in private situations is neither here nor there - it's entirely a matter for the individual.

''If it makes them feel good then great???''....are you having a laugh!..Whats great about cheating!

These same people GET qualifications...these same people GET jobs due to these qualifications...these same people are usually the incompetent people that we all often complain about on here!...Sometimes I look at a doctor and ''man!.. are you a real doctor ...or did you cheat at medical school!''....some of these people even become teachers...and so the cheating culture goes round and round!!!......''they are paying cutomers and have the right to cheat![/b]''...oh give me a break...do you really want this country to be based on and around cheaters!..I think not!

And what you and I think does matter....teaching is a privilege and an honour...private school or not...its not acceptable!...The individual could be the next President.....Poland has enough problems with the current one...hmmm wonder why!

Hey delphiandomine please go ahead and bury your head in the sand...but in my remaining 2 years I'll be damned if I don't try and change this!

I have a lesson now..but I'll be back with more examples...I will not...cannot let this rest!

You foster a cheating culture with kids certainly it carries over into adulthood with corruption and bribes.

Absolutely agree!

What are you doing here is creating another ugly myth about Poland, please don't do that.

This is not a myth....its true..it happens..take off your blinkers!!...and I WILL bring it up until the problem is under control!!

''Cheating isn't accepted in Poland! Please, don't make such unfair generalizations - you are implying some „cheating culture” and trying to explain it, there is no such thing as „cheating culture” in Poland. It's true that some students try to cheat, but no more than 5-15%''

^^ Nonsense...I'm sorry if this hurts but it IS part of Polish culture....Football..Politics...Construction....Government Benefits etc! ....but Cheating in schools is the worse..,....the cycle will never stop unless you stop it at the source..Polish schools!

As for 5-15% ....try 50-65% and you will be nearer the correct number ( source British Council Warsaw)
southern 75 | 7,102
30 Apr 2009  #26
The culture is also strong in western Ukraine.I had one gf bragging to me about how good she could cheat in exams and she was a good student.Other students who fail the exams and go to lower class institutions or have to pay fees simply bribe the proffessor.

So there you have four types as far as I understood.
1.Poor students who cannot bribe and have to study hard and do not cheat.They are usually labelled as antisocial and geeks.
2.Poor students who cannot bribe and study and cheat whenever they can to get higher grades.They are considered the most capable and intelligent among all.

3.Poor students of lower academic ability who gather and pay a collective bribe to the professor to pass the exam together
4.Rich students who simply bribe everything and everyone and get good grades in good universities.

The situation is considered fact of life and nobody sets it in doubt in Ukraine.
Foe example:Girls who study and work at the same time,getting some sponsoring from men or doing prostitution to bribe for the exams and a lot more things.
niejestemcapita 2 | 561
30 Apr 2009  #27
This is not a myth....its true..it happens..take off your blinkers

I have to agree with you here....I taught English in Poland for a year and learnt/saw some really inventive cheating methods, that I had never never heard of or seen before..for example copying asnwers in tiny tiny writing onto a tiny strip of paper and inserting into a biro, writing on leg under skirt, etc etc in fact so much effort and time was being put into cheating it would have been easier/quicker just to study....:)
southern 75 | 7,102
30 Apr 2009  #28
copying asnwers in tiny tiny writing onto a tiny strip of paper and inserting into a biro, writing on leg under skirt,

Be aware of girls wearing bras and stockings on the exams.They use them to hide there the strips of papers.In Greece outside the universities there are whole lot of photo copy shops turning big textbooks into tiny calendar like works for the motivated student usually just the day before exams.

The use of headphones covered by long hair in order to listen to the answers to the questions by sb speaking to mobile outside the classroom is also common.

Some have even proceeded to transplanting subcutaneously small headphones and microphone to ear lobe by small operation in order to be able to cheat at exams.
OP GoDfaTheR420 6 | 43
30 Apr 2009  #29
niejestemcapita:
copying asnwers in tiny tiny writing onto a tiny strip of paper and inserting into a biro, writing on leg under skirt,

Hey thats nothing....the ''NEW FCE'' exam was being distributed outside the British Council Warsaw the day BEFORE the actual exam for 100zl!!!...this is being investigated as i type by the ''Never cheat'' police!

The exam was taken a day before in Columbia, South America...and some clever sod faxed it over to Poland and made a killing!
delphiandomine 84 | 17,703
30 Apr 2009  #30
''If it makes them feel good then great???''....are you having a laugh!..Whats great about cheating!

Nothing, but we're not the ones paying our wages. If they want to cheat, then it's their choice. You'll find that much more experienced teachers than you regard cheating in private schools as being nothing more than amusing - if they want to cheat, it's only themselves that they're cheating. Certainly, I don't think anyone regards 'CALLAN METHOD STAGE 9' certificate as being actually worth anything, or indeed having any integrity whatsoever.

These same people GET qualifications...these same people GET jobs due to these qualifications...these same people are usually the incompetent people that we all often complain about on here!

Who are these people? I certainly haven't had any issues with people that have specific qualifications to do certain jobs. The only problems I've had here is with unskilled jobs, such as ticket inspectors. But relating to your own experience - what use is a certificate from a language school in the real world? Even the Polish civil service demands the FCE as the standard - private language school certificates mean nothing.

Sometimes I look at a doctor and ''man!.. are you a real doctor ...or did you cheat at medical school!''....

How do you do this, bearing in mind that you don't speak the language? I'd be very careful before slandering the medical profession in Poland, given that they often do an excellent job with a lack of resources. Or are you judging them on the basis that they don't speak English, like so many stereotypical ex-pats?

some of these people even become teachers...and so the cheating culture goes round and round!!!

Actually, this is where your ignorance is shining through. It's actually arguable that as many teachers coming through nowadays tried all the different ways to cheat, then it's much harder for the children to cheat in school. But the problem with the system here is not the teachers, but the system itself - there simply are no effective sanctions towards someone that's cheated. But that's a matter for the Ministry of Education.

Certainly no teacher with any integrity whatsoever would wilingly allow students to cheat. What's the point, when they can't influence the external exams?

''they are paying cutomers and have the right to cheat![/b]''...oh give me a break...do you really want this country to be based on and around cheaters!..I think not!

You really don't get it, do you? Private education in a language school is a business, not a vocation. In business, you pay for what you expect - and as private language teachers, it's our job to make people believe they can use the language. How they use it is entirely up to them - if they want to cheat, then it's their choice, because they're cheating no-one but themselves. They'll be found out quite quickly anyway, so why are you bothered about it?

And what you and I think does matter....teaching is a privilege and an honour...private school or not...its not acceptable!

A privilege and an honour? Are you living in cloud cuckoo land? Given the lack of job security and poor working conditions in many schools, it's certainly not an honour or a privilege. Even if you view it as that - you should be looking at why people are paying your wages. They're paying you to keep students happy - and if they have to cheat to be happy, then it's not an issue.

The individual could be the next President.....Poland has enough problems with the current one...hmmm wonder why!

They had problems with Kwaśniewski, they had problems with Wałęsa, they had problems with Jaruzelski. Having a problem with the President is a common issue in Poland, and you can trace this right back to the start of the 2nd Polish Republic.

Anyway, Kaczyński wasn't voted for on the basis of his qualifications, so your argument is rather moot.

Hey delphiandomine please go ahead and bury your head in the sand...but in my remaining 2 years I'll be damned if I don't try and change this!

Feel free, but you're not going to get much of a favourable reaction. You don't understand the culture, you haven't lived here for long and you're frankly acting like the stereotypical ex-pat who can't get his Full English Breakfast when on holiday.

Cheating is deeply ingrained in the national identity. For better or for worse, it's accepted in Poland and while Western/Northern Europeans might see it as alien and strange and unacceptable - it's perfectly fine for the Poles. Leave them to it - it's their culture, not ours.

I can't help but think that you're looking at this from the point of view of a Brit who can't accept other people's failings but are willing to ignore his own country's failings. For instance...

Nonsense...I'm sorry if this hurts but it IS part of Polish culture....Football

Ah, because Poland is completely alone in having cheated in the past at football. No British born player has ever cheated, of course not. I mean, Glenn Hoddle never said anything about disabled people being punished for their sins or anything, did he? Course not.

..Politics...

Ahaaaa...Haven't you heard about the mysterious case of ballots going missing in Glenrothes after a very dubious by-election win by Labour, or the postal voting corruption associated with Labour in several places? The Polish electoral system is rather sound, as far as I know.

Construction...

Goes on everywhere. The Skye Bridge is a rather famous example.

Government Benefits etc!

Because people never falsely claim benefits in the UK, do they? 800 million pounds was the last figure for benefit fraud in the UK. And that's merely the ones detected.

....but Cheating in schools is the worse..,....the cycle will never stop unless you stop it at the source..Polish schools!

Why don't you complain to the Ministry of Education, then? Funnily enough, cheating in UK schools is much more difficult and punished much more severely - yet we have exactly the same cheating culture as Poland. Why, Mr Social Scientist?

Hey thats nothing....the ''NEW FCE'' exam was being distributed outside the British Council Warsaw the day BEFORE the actual exam for 100zl!!!...this is being investigated as i type by the ''Never cheat'' police!

The exam was taken a day before in Columbia, South America...and some clever sod faxed it over to Poland and made a killing!

That's a problem with the British Council and Cambridge, nothing else. If they were stupid enough to not schedule the exam at the same time everywhere, then what do they really expect? Are you seriously telling me that Brits wouldn't sell an exam the day before if they could? Of course they would.

Perhaps you should live here for a lot longer before trying to change the way of living.


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