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Polish culture versus rotten West


rozumiemnic 8 | 3,846
12 Feb 2016 #61
also, abuse exists in all large organisations, not just the Catholic church.
Look at the BBC for example..:)
Interesting that you mention Spain. that country has spent the last quarter of a century recovering from Franco. Other stuff will come out later.
Roger5 1 | 1,455
12 Feb 2016 #62
Ireland, long known for its Catholicity, has produced such a bad track record regarding Church abuse of women and children. Yes, that happens everywhere, but the intensity seems greater in Ireland.

I don't know that the intensity, as you call it, is/was greater in Ireland, but in recent years people have been much more willing to question what was the great social power of the Church, and that has led to more people coming forward with allegations of historical abuse.

There are parallels between Ireland and Poland in that the Church was seen in both countries as a refuge from foreign cultural and political hegemony. Having said that, in Ireland the case is much more complicated, as British rule was not universally seen as malign.

The RC Church in Ireland did, and has done, many good and bad things, and this forum is perhaps not the place to discuss them in depth, but I would like to recommend a documentary on the notorious Magdalene Laundries.

youtube.com/watch?v=FtxOePGgXPs&feature=youtu.be

I now feel nausea every time I read 'Serbia", "Serb" and I have stopped reading his messages

I have successfully trained myself to do just that, and I must say that my PF experience has improved. I'm now trying to ignore two other members, but it's proving to be more difficult.
Tictactoe
12 Feb 2016 #63
I went to a Catholic school in England ran solely by nuns and priests, and all they did was spend the days putting the fear of God and the devil into every single kid in that school.

I actually believed I was the devils child for a short while when a child.
Roger5 1 | 1,455
12 Feb 2016 #64
the fear of God

Yes, they were very good at that. It was a kind of good cop/bad cop thing, with gentle Jesus, all loving, all forgiving, and then there was the terrifying Old Testament God of thunder and retribution.

nuns

It is my fervent belief that nuns should not be placed within one mile of a child's mind.
OP Ktos 16 | 440
12 Feb 2016 #65
The easiest way for a nation to commit cultural and ethnic suicide is to become more and more Western a.k.a. degenerate and progressive.

I could not have put it any better. The downfall of capitalism is that while the economic prowess (only of some western countries) allows for opportunities to live a little better (but mainly for the lucky and cunning) than in non-capitalist countries the cultural and ethnic outlook is grim. For example, one of the areas affected are family dynamics: the families are broken up through push for individualism which is promoted mainly for the purpose of young ones moving out of home, getting a job and paying taxes - this is something that average capitalist can not see. There is no push for children to go to universities, to obtain better schooling, to stay home longer or to respect parents, quite the opposite and this is the trend that is now more and more apparent in Poland which follows in the foot steps of western style and if this continues it will resolve in cultural suicide. I just presented one example but there are many.
TheOther 6 | 3,692
12 Feb 2016 #66
is that ALL countries have nevertheless kept (most of) their traditions, languages, "values".

I will have to strongly disagree with you here. No matter where you go these days (except for North Korea, of course...) you will notice how dramatically the world has changed over the past thirty/ forty years or so in terms of loss of local culture - be it language, music, cuisine, or even the way how people live together. Give it another 50 to 100 years and the world will look (almost) the same everywhere.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
12 Feb 2016 #67
@The Other: of course as in terms of consumption (and I am saying it) but trust me, if you visit any (not only) European country in provinces, you'll see that there are tons of traditions that are still well alive. Maybe in countries such as France, Spain, Italy, Portugal (where each region is really different from others, often with different dialects or even languages, architecture, cooking...) it is more visible. Outside of Europe, Japan is another example and there are more examples..
Ironside 51 | 11,339
12 Feb 2016 #68
One question: how is it that Ireland, long known for its Catholicity,

For a long time clergy in Ireland had to double as a elite in lieu of the national elite. When secular educated elite came into existence in the second part of the 19th they came as very left wing and opposed to domination of the Church as well as the British Empire.

In the Republic of Ireland schools step by step have been take over by secular and at the same time left elements of the Irish elite. They domination in the state apparatus and in schools ensured a slow decline of the RCC in Ireland.

Nevertheless some kind of cooperation and cohabitation ensued.
I guess that scandal with Bishop/s hiding those guilty of transgressions came about because some bishops were confused by their double role that of a bishop and that of a politician.
smurf 39 | 1,981
12 Feb 2016 #69
In the Republic of Ireland schools step by step have been take over by secular and at the same time left elements of the Irish elite.

I don't know where to being with how much is wrong with this sentence
Atch 17 | 4,087
12 Feb 2016 #70
in countries such as France,

Ok then missus, let's hear a few bars of at least a dozen French folk songs handed down for the last few hundred years or so and see you do the basic steps of any French folk dance. No, not some peasant from the mountains, but you ma petite member of the bourgeoisie.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
15 Feb 2016 #71
loss of local culture

***Germans "embellishing" (?!) their speech with "trendy"( because English) words such as die Party, der Job, Das Baby, Das Basement, Das Coaching, das Arrangement, etc.

***Once almond-skinned Japanese teens now acne-scarred from two many burgers, chips and KFC...
***Young Poles peppering their speech with wow, f*ck and Jesus, high-fiving and knuckle-bumping like it's going out of style...
***Christmas trees, holly wreaths and Santa-Creeps all over Seoul malls although those gimmicks are absolutely alien to local culture...
.***Rap-crap, the product of black American slumland, is not only alien to European and Asian culture, but perniciously promotes anti-values such as glorifying gangsters, drug dealers, woman-bashers and other forms of violence.

Since there are only 24 hours in the day, those alien imports are definitely pauperising people's cultural awareness and infiltrating the indigenous local heritage with things usually quite inferior. Some may say people are free to choose. Yes and no. When for mega-financial gain the promotion of alien substance is being bankrolled by a multi-billion-dollar brain-washing machine, one can hardly speak of a conscious, well-considered choice.
Atch 17 | 4,087
15 Feb 2016 #72
Actually Polly I think that the decline of local customs and cultures goes further back. I think the roots are in the industrialisation of Europe and the movement of people from the land to the cities. That's part of it anyway.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
15 Feb 2016 #73
industrialisation

Of course, peasants moving to work in city textile mills or whatever naturally lost some of their rural ways and adopted urban ones in their place. But that was a gradual process and in many ways they bettered themselves in terms of language, culture, hygiene and work ethic. And they weren't harangued 24/7 by anything like today's high-powered commerpop which downdumbs rather than improving anything other than the shakers & movers' finances. Let me ask you point-blank: are you a big fan of today's popculture?
Lolek222 - | 80
15 Feb 2016 #74
rott set in ans is spreading! Seriously are you reading your posts..
High time u should...
Atch 17 | 4,087
16 Feb 2016 #75
Let me ask you point-blank: are you a big fan of today's popculture?

No.

Today when I logged on my senses were assaulted with the question of the moment 'What's happened to Tom Cruise's Face?' Really?? Apparently it looks inflated.............No Polly I don't care about Tom Cruise's face or Kim Kardashian's rear end or Madonna and her Gollum-like arms. The media also informs me that I should be outraged that Brooklyn Beckham has been given the Burberry campaign. Yes that grieves me deeply.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
16 Feb 2016 #76
grieves me deeply

Great, I'm glad we're on a similar wave-length over this. Now another question. Since I know next to nothing about today's Ireland (only the stereotypical hotch-potch about shamrocks, clay pipes and leprechauns), you are my only reliable source. Since you know both countries, which of the two has succumbed the most to the toxic, corrosive and down-dumbing codswallop known as "pop culture"?

misdeeds against kids and women in Ireland

What does Atch have to do with such violations? Collective responsibility? Maybe the Jews on PF should be blamed for the misdeeds of Berman, Minc, Fejgin, Światło, Romkowski, Brystygier, Mietkowski, Wolińska and many, many more? In post-war Poland Jews accoutned for only abotu 1% of the population but held one-half of the top posts in the Stalinist security apparatus.

BTW is it true you're French of Spanish origin? Your PF profile doesn't mention that.
Atch 17 | 4,087
16 Feb 2016 #77
Since you know both countries, which of the two has succumbed the most

I don't think either of them have really, but I would say that Poland is more in danger of heading in that direction than Ireland for many reasons. For the one thing Ireland has evolved gradually, experiencing the cultural revolution at a steady pace from the 1950s onwards. With Poland, they were pitchforked more suddenly and forcefully into the 'modern' era. Secondly Ireland still retains a very strong sense of its own cultural identity and aspects of the old Gaelic ways are actively alive in everyday life with the music, the Gaelic sports etc. Polish traditions and customs seem to be more regional, not really relevant for a lot of Poles and somehow a part of the past. And finally, thinking beyond the material, volunteering and giving to those in need is strongly rooted in Irish culture in a way that it doesn't seem to be in Poland.
smurf 39 | 1,981
16 Feb 2016 #78
Let me ask you point-blank: are you a big fan of today's popculture?

It's a pointless question.

Tell me this though, what is the difference between today's pop culture and that of the 1960s, or 50s, or 20s or the 1880s?

From a purely sociological viewpoint there is none whatsoever. Pop culture will always focus on people famous from the culture section of society, artists, actors, singers, writers etc.

The populace has always been interested in gossip concerning famous people, be they kings, writers, singers, vloggers. It's is human nature.

Your problem is that while you're obsessed with certain elements of culture, i.e. the political ramblings of morons you fail to understand that for many this means almost nothing. So you rush to judge as if you're style of living is the best.

Stop being a judgemental tossbag and quit the b!tching and moaning. You're a old broken record and it's incredibly boring. If you hate people and life so much, do us all a favour and leave.

Polish traditions and customs seem to be more regional, not really relevant for a lot of Poles and somehow a part of the pas

I agree, Poland isn't really a united country, they only time it is united is durung bandwagon sporting events, other than that it's pretty much a few countries pretending to be one and the sooner it breaks up the better for all involved.
Harry
16 Feb 2016 #79
If you hate people and life so much, do us all a favour and leave.

That's a bit harsh, smurf. Isn't there likely to be a better solution? I find that a lot of the time people who hate and rail against everything (whether they are an American ranting about how their culture/society is rotten and the culture/society of Poland is pure, or a Pole ranting about how Polish culture/society is now rotten due to the evil influences of 'the west') the problem is often not they hate American/Australian/Polish culture/society/whatever but that they hate themselves. The cure for that is to stop hating themselves and to just be honest about themselves. A poster I won't name is older than the rest of us, he doesn't have many years left: don't you think that he'd be happier in those years if he stopped ranting about American/Polish culture/society and was just honest about himself?
smurf 39 | 1,981
16 Feb 2016 #80
but that they hate themselves

That certainly is the problem.
110%

If I hated myself and my life that much I'd put myself out of my misery.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
16 Feb 2016 #81
between today's pop culture

The main difference is its omnipresence and pervasivenes, backed by big money and high technology which give it power and influence far beyond any of the periods you have mentioned.

Enterainmetn of one sort or another has always been with us. Centuries ago, villages were visited by jugglers and gipsies with dancing bears. The villagers gathered watched the ursine performance, tossed a coin or two and off they went on their merry way. None of the spectators wanted to become a gipsy or emualte the bear!

Today's celebrity system has created a pattern for emulation. More and more people these days are taking their cues from showbiz types, who often lead the most convoluted and mucked-up lives around. To a large extent they have replaced genuine authorities. Culture and a sense of aesthetics have been largely displaced by tawdry, tinsley crapola, and in place of ethical values we get ego-tripping and narcissism. Celebromania and other aspects of commerpop impact much of the lives of a growing number of people in Poland and world-wide. I don't know about you, but I feel this stunts people's cultural and intellectual development. The more so that most people do not realise what is actually happening to them and behind the scenes.
Atch 17 | 4,087
16 Feb 2016 #82
Today's celebrity system has created a pattern for emulation.

There was always a pattern for emulation in society Polly. In Poland for example at one time, the gentry had a very strong influence, indeed as they did in England. The gentry with their wealth, superior health, ample time and opportunity to educate themselves etc were able to cultivate high ideals which the masses actually tried to embrace on some level. The lord of the manor was your role model.

In the Victorian era with cheap newspapers, magazines and photography Brits went Royal Family crazy and began collecting photos of their various Royal favourites. Then photos of actresses and singers began to appear and people collected those. Many people followed the activities of the celebrities of the day, but as you say, theirs was an untouchable life that the general population were content to merely observe. But all that began to change after the First World War.

But you have a very gloomy view of the world. There are still plenty of people who read things other than tacky mags or celebrity gossip, people who admire art, watch quality films, play a musical instrument, take part in sports, grow flowers or veggies.....
smurf 39 | 1,981
16 Feb 2016 #83
The main difference is its omnipresence and pervasivene

No it isn't

You don't like Rihanna, stop listening to RMF
You don't like Kim Kardashian, don't watch E Entertainment

It's really that feckin simple

None of the spectators wanted to become a gipsy or emualte the bear!

Of course they did, cultures are full of stories of heroes going off and joing the circus, becoming magicians/wizards etc. And if people didn't want to run off and join the travelling bands then where did they keep getting their entertainers from?

Come on man, try harder.
I know if I had a chance to become a trainer for bear jugglers or remain a feckin chicken farmer I know I'd be high tailing it after the travelling troupe.

Today's celebrity system has created a pattern for emulation

No different from 100, 2000, 500, 1000 & 2000 years ago. Christ sake man, you're a (supposed) Christain, you're whole life is based on emulating your long-haired leader.

More and more people these days are taking their cues from showbiz types

Whereas it used to be from clergy, same thing. People are idiots and need to get their cues from elsewhere coz they're too feckin stupid to have an original thought.

who often lead the most convoluted and mucked-up lives around

Same as above.

To a large extent they have replaced genuine authorities

Why do you need authorities? Are you too stupid to have an original thought?

Culture and a sense of aesthetics have been largely displaced by tawdry, tinsley crapola, and in place of ethical values we get ego-tripping and narcissism

No, they haven't.
Aristotle said about young people

They have exalted notions, because they have not been humbled by life or learned its necessary limitations; moreover, their hopeful disposition makes them think themselves equal to great things -- and that means having exalted notions.

They would rather do noble deeds than useful ones: Their lives are regulated more by moral feeling than by reasoning -- all their mistakes are in the direction of doing things excessively and vehemently. They overdo everything -- love too much, hate too much, and the same with everything else.

The thing is, you're just old and past it man, you don't understand the youth coz you've forgotten what it was like to be young. Societies don't really change, people just get older and fatter and more useless and judgemental.

Celebromania and other aspects of commerpop

These are not words.

impact much of the lives of a growing number of people in Poland and world-wide

As did the lives of celebrities 100, 2000, 500, 1000 & 2000 years ago. Get over it.

I don't know about you, but I feel this stunts people's cultural and intellectual development

And who exactly are you to be the feckin leader on cultural and intellectual development? You're an ultra-religious homophobe bully. You are in no position to pass judgement on what is cultural and intellectual development. Give me a break chopie.

The more so that most people do not realise what is actually happening to them and behind the scenes

Most people don't care. Why don't you understand that. Most poeple would rather watch Rihanna or Kim Kardashian or Barcelona or Bayern Munich than tune in to depressing Polish political broadcasts. Pop culture is escapism, as is sport, people escaping from the grim realities of this f!cked up country or whatever f!cked up country they're from/living in. Can you blame them? I certainly can't.
Ironside 51 | 11,339
16 Feb 2016 #84
Hey simple solution for simple minded. If in doubt ask papa smurf.
Atch 17 | 4,087
16 Feb 2016 #85
Polonius and Eamon De Valera separated at birth? Read on.............

'the home of a people who valued material wealth only as a basis for right living, of a people who, satisfied with frugal comfort, devoted their leisure to the things of the spirit - a land whose countryside would be bright with cosy homesteads, whose fields and villages would be joyous with the sounds of industry, with the romping of sturdy children, the contest of athletic youths and the laughter of happy maidens, whose firesides would be forums for the wisdom of serene old age. The home, in short, of a people living the life that God desires that men should live.' (De Valera's vision for Ireland from his 1943 radio broadcast).
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
16 Feb 2016 #86
Most people don't care

I agree and that's precsiely why they should be made more aware of things. "You don't like Rihanna, dont' listen," you wrote, but this is not about liking. No-one likes anything they're not exposed to. It is repetitive exposure that leads to liking. Back in the day in the US there was a big payola scandal. DJs were getting paid to play a given selection over and over to make it popular. Now that is standard practice. You don't get played on Radio Zet or RMF without a juicy gratuity for the station.

If interested check out: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payola
BTW Artistotle was speaking of high-minded idealistic and altruistic youth who lack the experience and realism of older folk. Today instead of idealism we have mindless, selfish hedonism, vandalism, devil-may-care promiscuity and and a total lack of concern for other people's feelings and interest. And all that is being officially glamourised and peddled by the financial powers that be.
Chemikiem
16 Feb 2016 #87
that's precsiely why they should be made more aware of things.

How do you know they're not? Give people some credit, you make it sound like you're the only person who has a mind of their own.

Polonius, much as you may dislike it, young people want to listen to the music of their choosing, go to concerts to see the bands they like play, watch the films they want to, and why shouldn't they? Just because you frown on what appears to be every type of entertainment going, you can't expect everyone else to.

No-one likes anything they're not exposed to.

So should we all get rid of our TV sets and radios too? If you don't like what you see/hear, turn over or turn off!

high-minded idealistic and altruistic youth who lack the experience and realism of older folk

They are young! You can't expect teenagers to have that awareness, they're not supposed to, they should be out having fun which is something you appear to have never had.

instead of idealism we have mindless, selfish hedonism, vandalism, devil-may-care promiscuity and and a total lack of concern for other people's feelings and interest.

People have been saying that with each passing decade, it's nothing new.
Especially common with older people, " It's not like it was in my day ", " young people today are so rude, they have no manners " etc etc blah blah
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
16 Feb 2016 #88
see the bands

Probably the heavy metal thing has blown over by now but for years it was all the rage.There was an ironic saying back then "as much good manners as at a heavy metal concert". Heavy metal promoted and gloried the rough, rude, crude, vulgar and outrageous among a generation of young people. Now as adults do you think they have acquried excellent manners are super polite, considerate and avoid foul language like the plague?

Dunno if you know Polish but there's an apt saying: Czym skorupa za młodu nasiąknie tym w starości trąci. (Roughly: what the shell absorbs in childhood it exudes in old age.)

It's not a queiton of doing away with TV sets but cleaning up what is shown. Preferably not by government decree but thanks to common sense. If more people took the time to study and analyse the situation and relaised how toxic commerpop can be to young impressionable minds, there could eventually be a groundswell of public pressure among the thinking segments of society.

Remember how once most everyone smoked. It was sophisticated and fashionable, or so we were told. And yet years of campaigning have convinced people that it was a health hazard. The same can take place with regards to commerpop if there aren't people who thoghtlessly defend it with excuses like "one person likes this and another likes something else." This is not about tastes but about toxic content and the clever propaganda that glamourises it.
Atch 17 | 4,087
17 Feb 2016 #89
as adults do you think they have acquried excellent manners are super polite, considerate and avoid foul language like the plague?

Well you're looking at one. I was a big metal fan in my teens, a real little head banger, though being the discerning type I favoured only the classic crème de la crème, more heavy rock than metal I suppose, Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Jimi Hendrix of course. I think pretty much everyone in school was into the same music. Now I went to a girls' school of course but at the weekends we hung out and socialised with the boys. They had long hair and leather jackets but they were good kids, properly brought up, said please and thank you and gave up their seat on the bus for an old person or a woman with heavy shopping. You're making assumptions about people's characters based on their tastes in music and the way they dress.

Anyway, people often carry on loving the music they listened to in their teens but they grow up and leave the other trappings behind. What about the old guys who were Elvis fans in their youth? Ok, some of them still have the hairstyle (!) but you don't see them in drainpipe jeans, Teddy boy drape jackets, winkle pickers and saying 'hey daddio' , 'see you later alligator'.................
Roger5 1 | 1,455
17 Feb 2016 #90
Atch, you are quite right. In the late 70s I could be found in the punk hangouts of London, copping an attitude in my army surplus and leather jacket. Now I am the very essence of civility! I don't even jaywalk. I wonder what Polonius did as a teenager. D'ye think he'll tell us?

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