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The Blame Game (Have you ever noticed that a Polish person is never wrong!?)


Sidliste_Chodov 1 | 441
4 Sep 2011 #91
It's even worse when it's a Polish-born woman with a British-born Pole (like me), who understands where's she's coming from, but will not under any circumstances fall for the "mój misiu" controlling stuff, and has no fear of the inevitable "masz do mnie pretensje?" confrontational response. Men from Poland are more likely to give in, just to make peace. We won't over here, and they don't like it, because they are too used to getting their own way back home.

You have to call their bluff - like the one who I dated who threatened to go with some non-white if I didn't do what I was told, so I was like "no to idż i puszczaj się jeśli tak chcesz i wracaj z nim do B*********!" or something, and of course she turned into putty in my hands after that and it was back to the "misiu" stuff immediately after, lol :)

Think of it in astrological terms: Aries and Capricorn will never get on (except maybe in bed, hehe) because each simply MUST win, and each will NEVER give in. Two headstrong people will always come to blows, whether physically or otherwise. ;)
Seanus 15 | 19,706
4 Sep 2011 #92
Top post, Sid. Bang on topic and full of truth!
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
5 Sep 2011 #93
No offence, but you are the guys best friend, , so whose side of the story would you take anyway? If what you say is true that she left him because he had no job, I fail to see how their managed to stay together for 23 years in the first place-there must be more to the story than you brought up.

It would be also interesting to see how "successful" Poland would be if the UK immediately deported every Pole who has come over since 2004. We know it will never happen, but it would still be interesting to see what would happen if it did ;)

You say it as though you would love to see i happen.
wielki pan 2 | 250
5 Sep 2011 #94
I thought you would understand

Sorry Avalon, but your comments smell of arrogance and blame, change yourself and not the system...lets talk turkey, your motivation for living in Poland was cheap housing and a way of life and now you realise that there are strings attached, firstly the system and practices will not change for another generation, you have to live within the system, secondly you a newcomer to the country and need to keep this in mind, Thirdly Poland is Poland a religious country which have different sets of standards and values.

I personally think that people like you and Seanus have a very positive impact in bringing change or giving options to people they come across in their lives. Work practices need to change, the practice of giving foreign companies tax breaks is only a band aid solution, although with the current global financial downturn I doubt if things will change for a long time with increased costs and stable wages. The person on old age pension receiving 900zl a month will need to change is lifestyle etc to survive
pawian 173 | 12,567
5 Sep 2011 #95
Pawian, I have known them many years,

Excuse me, but this story still doesn`t hold water if the main motif of breaking the family is her husband`s loss of work. People don`t walk on each other for such trivial reasons, especially immediately after losing a job. Such things might happen months or years after becoming jobless, when a person can`t find a new position and collapses mentally, then his/her partner might start thinking of leaving.

Sorry, warszawski, you just don`t know all the other details which haven`t been revealed to you. So, let me repeat, don`t accuse this woman of irresponsibility and set her as an example here.
poland_
5 Sep 2011 #96
Sorry, warszawski, you just don`t know all the other details which haven`t been revealed to you. So, let me repeat, don`t accuse this woman of irresponsibility and set her as an example here.

This woman is a classic example of person who was born in the late 1960's Poland, finished her studies in the early 90's, she had opportunity that most Poles today could only dream of. While on her year off in England, she met an Englishman who was prepared to give up a job in the city and move to Poland. She is a complete

'fantasist' who blames history for the loss of her family fortune, and believes life owes her a living. Furthermore she will do whatever it takes, at what ever cost, in order to maintain her lifestyle. This woman is an example of a generation in Poland, that have experienced two very different periods of Polish history, she knows the period and hardship of Poland in her formative years, although for five years during the 80's her family relocated to Libya as her father was a surgeon, a luxury most Polish families during the 80's would dream about. The antique Polish furniture she has collected over the years, is now part of her family legacy, she informs all her friends it was handed down through the family over the centuries.

Pawian, you know absolutely nothing about these two people I refer too, nor from your naive comments this type of people in Poland today.

Excuse me, but this story still doesn`t hold water if the main motif of breaking the family is her husband`s loss of work.

It is NOT about loss of work, the issue here is about loss of lifestyle, irresponsibility and blame, he will come out at the end of 2011, with a large payoff and a pension, at the age of 49, it is very unlikely he will find another position with the same prestige and package,most likely he will become a consultant, she will make sure all the money goes to her, she will never admit to anyone, she always had plan B and was ready to implement, when the day came.
OP Avalon 4 | 1,068
5 Sep 2011 #97
That is why I take the whole complaint by Avalon with a giant pinch of salt.

Pawian, I am not in the habit of lying. I leave that to others.
The parking incident was in a main square, did not involve being on the grass or pavement, blocking anyone else in or being nearer than 1.5 metres from a building. This is your interpretation to justify you accusation that I must be lying or making up stories to "bash" Poles.

On receiving the parking ticket I went to the local "straz" station, explained what had happened to the officer who issued the ticket and he agreed that there was a lack of signage, no parking bays are marked out and the fact was that many tickets were issued there because of this. He "tore" the ticket up. This has happened twice now. A waste of everybodies time.

The incidents in my original post did happen, and, those are only a few of them.
Sometimes the stupidity gets a bit too much and I get very angry. Its interesting to see the comments on my post. Most non-Polish who live here tend to agree with what I tried to say (I apologise if it sounded like a generalisation as this was not my intention, I can only write about my experiences here in Southern Poland) but the Polish contingent have automatically jumped on the defensive, accusing me of lying and telling me to go home?. This is my home!!!, I have been here for 8 years now and I would never want to return to the UK.

Is it so wrong of me to want to see Poland progress and become more business friendly. Is it so wrong to want people (of any country) to do what they are supposed too and know the rules and regulations that apply to the jobs they are paid to do?

I have permanent residence here in Poland, I pay ZUS and I am supposed to be treated, eactly, the same as any Polish Person. My partner recently went to pick up our "Health Cards" to carry with us when we went on holiday. Hers and the childrens were valid for 6 months, mine was valid for 30 days, what happened to the "equal" part?

Fed up with my bad (Radio) internet connection, I decided to change to "Netia" which involves letting go one of my TPS landlines. Now, after two months, 5 couriers coming to the house asking me to sign contracts/transfer forms, I still do not have the new service installed.

I am not Pole bashing, simply pointing out how difficult it is to get the simplest things done. Polish people might think this is "normal" in everyday life and I should get used to it, at my age, I am too old to change and I do not tolerate fools gladly.

To me it makes no sense for business's to be run this way and may explain why the costs of services is so high here. If all these people have to run around with bits of paper to be signed and stamped, the cost will always be passed on to the customer.

Just because I criticise things that annoy me, does not mean that I do not love this country. Sometimes things build up and you have to let off steam. I am not asking for forum members to agree with me, I am just explaining things that happen to me on a far too regular basis.

For the foriegners living here, you know the truth. For the Polish who seem to think that any criticisem is a slight on the whole of Poland, be aware, if you do not learn from mistakes you are apt to repeat them and nothing will change for the better.

Lastly, I repect the present Polish government and admire the way they have guided Poland through a very difficult financial period. I simply wanted to point out that if thy removed a lot of the "red tape" and stupid rules/laws, the economy would grow at an even faster pace and truly make peoples lives, easier.

lets talk turkey, your motivation for living in Poland was cheap housing and a way of life and now you realise that there are strings attached

Really!!!, I have never lived anywhere "cheap", even now. There are no strings attached, unless you think that stupidity is something we all have to accept?

arrogance and blame, change yourself and not the system.

You then go on to say,

I personally think that people like you and Seanus have a very positive impact in bringing change or giving options to people they come across in their lives.

Which is it?, either I need to change, or I bring a positive change to others?
The rest of your comments I agree with.
vndunne 43 | 279
5 Sep 2011 #98
Speaking as a non polish person who has lived here for over 5 years, i have to agree in principle with Avalon. I have had a lot of dealings here and very seldom see someone putting their hand up to accept responsibility. However, i have given up expecting it and just appreciate the occasional time that some does take responsibility...along with the few times people say thank you or excuse me.
PWEI 3 | 612
5 Sep 2011 #99
warszawski
he suspects she has put all the furniture in storage as it mostly expensive antiques they have collected over the years.

That's not clever: that furniture is jointly owned and by taking all of it and putting it where he can not use it is going to look more than a little bit bad when the divorce comes to court.
Ziemowit 13 | 4,101
5 Sep 2011 #100
Despite being a Pole living in Poland (and, for that matter, one who has never chosen to go to live in America), I must to some extent agree with the above. Even my wife is a vivid example of that, and her brother is usually quick to spot it at family meetings - he then says to the rest of the company: "Look, it is never her fault! It is always everybody else's fault".

In a way, the "blame game" may be an Eastern European feature of character that makes us look so different from our Western European cousins. I remember reading once a book on Romania written by a Romanian writer praising the extraordinary (extra-terrestial, I would add) qualities of the Romanian nation to such an extent that I simply was unable to read the book even down to the middle of it.

Therefore I can understand the point of view of Westerners who are able to see that "a Polish person is never wrong", whereas we Poles are "incapable" to do it since we are simply too much used to the thing you call the "blame game". Historically speaking, there was one interesting example of an attempt to implement values that were common in the West onto the Polish soil by a group of people a little like you; this had something to do with Dutch farmers in the 17th or 18th century who emigrated to Poland to set up agricultural enterprises (this attempt is mentioned in one of the books by Polish socilogist Jadwiga Staniszkis - if you are interested, I may find it somewhere among my books). That attempt failed. A very serious attempt to adjust Polish "mentalities" to Western standards was the Third of May Constitution of 1791 which began to provoke an influx of foreign enterpreneurs into Poland, but failed as well as it had met with enormous opposition not only from foreign powers, but as well from domestic magnates who did not want to change anything in the "Sarmatian way of life and governance".
Sidliste_Chodov 1 | 441
5 Sep 2011 #101
You say it as though you would love to see i happen.

Well, considering that this country has three million unemployed, is losing around a thousand jobs a day, while almost a thousand new immigrants arrive daily (not all Poles, of course), only a fool would say that returning 1/2 million people back to where they came from would be a bad thing for the economy. It's what they do in the oil states, I see no reason why it shouldn't be the case here. There's already way too many people (of all races/ethnicities) in this country who can't find work or adequate housing. There's plenty of people here to do the work; we don't need more foreigners, we just need a government which will force the lazy to do the jobs which are hard to fill. My occupation isn't that badly hit yet (but will be soon), but we're already getting 10 applicants for each job, and adverts are being closed on the day they are advertised, not the two weeks which they used to run for. The only people who benefit from this competition are the employers, certainly not us!
pawian 173 | 12,567
5 Sep 2011 #102
=Avalon]He "tore" the ticket up.

So I was right when I said that you made up everything. :):):)

Did you pay the fekking ticket?

No. It was annulled on the spot. You didn`t have to argue extensively or go to court to prove your innocence. The municipal police officer, by tearing the ticket off in your presence, admitted they had made a mistake.

So why are you telling this stupid story at all as an example of never wrong Poles?

Are you crazy? Don`t you understand that all your other examples are doubtful too in result? I would never buy a basket of apples if I found one rotten apple in it.

If I were picky and impolite, I would call it all a pack of lies. :):):):):)

=warszawski]It is NOT about loss of work, the issue here is about loss of lifestyle, irresponsibility and blame, he will come out at the end of 2011, with a large payoff and a pension, at the age of 49.

Sorry but it is naive on your part to try selling this story as an example of irresponsibility of Poles. People do such things everywhere, worldwide. Don`t be silly. How old are you? Don`t you know life and haven`t seen such cases before?

=vndunne]Speaking as a non polish person who has lived here for over 5 years, i have to agree in principle with Avalon.

You have the right to it.

=vndunne]I have had a lot of dealings here and very seldom see someone putting their hand up to accept responsibility.

Is it better in the country where you come from? Do car mechanics inform you in your country that they flunked the job (repaired sth else than what you wanted) or even damaged sth and want to refund it to you? :):):)

=Avalon]To me it makes no sense for business's to be run this way and may explain why the costs of services is so high here. If all these people have to run around with bits of paper to be signed and stamped, the cost will always be passed on to the customer.

It is simply necessary. When you plan to build a house in Poland, you need a tonne of documents from various specialists, which costs you a year on average.

Why do we often hear on TV news that a newly built hotel or apartment block collapsed in Turkey or Chile or a country of 3rd world, without being struck by earthquake ? The answer is: they don`t need any documents.

Why don`t I hear about such tragedies on Polish news? Any idea?

You are old, as you said. You want to make things run faster because you feel time is getting short.

Then, recall a nice Polish saying: when man hurries, the devil rejoices.
OP Avalon 4 | 1,068
5 Sep 2011 #103
So I was right when I said that you made up everything. :):):)

You want to learn to read dipsiht!!!.where did I say in my original post that I paid a fine for parking? I said that "I got a ticket"
Seanus 15 | 19,706
5 Sep 2011 #104
I think part of it lies in the lack of empowerment felt by people here. I can see that Poles can be passionate and enthusiastic, of that I have no doubts. However, many are affected by negativity around them and give up too easily. Many would rather point out what's wrong as opposed to putting it right. I think some Poles would benefit from assertiveness training and empowerment sessions.
OP Avalon 4 | 1,068
5 Sep 2011 #105
You are old, as you said. You want to make things run faster because you feel time is getting short.

With age comes experience and wisdom. Something you will never achieve.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
5 Sep 2011 #106
Avalon, pawian is just doing what he is conditioned to do. It's normal for Poles to defend their position and is indeed expected. Just clarify what you meant regarding the ticket part and all will be clear I'm sure. Tbh, I also took it that way pawian did. It appeared like they admitted their fault in the end. Maybe I read it too quickly. Generally, I identify with what you wrote in the OP and don't think it's fabricated or invented BS at all. Far from it!
OP Avalon 4 | 1,068
5 Sep 2011 #107
It is simply necessary. When you plan to build a house in Poland, you need a tonne of documents from various specialists, which costs you a year on average.

Really!!! as a developer/builder for 40 years, I never realised that!!!. You should take some time to read previous posts or, at least look at the cartoons.
poland_
5 Sep 2011 #108
. Don`t be silly. How old are you? Don`t you know life and haven`t seen such cases before?

Interesting retort Pawian, but as always your words are to provoke. In response to your questions, experienced and wise enough to have lived and experienced things you will only ever dream of, that I guarantee you of.

Sorry but it is naive on your part to try selling this story as an example of irresponsibility of Poles. People do such things everywhere, worldwide

I am going to remind you again of the title of this thread: The Blame Game (Have you ever noticed that a Polish person is never wrong!?)

Now just for you,

1. Is the woman in this story Polish and lives in Poland ? Ans - YES
2. Does she blame her husband for the situation that has developed? Ans - YES
3.Is the motivation for her behavior, in the interests of herself? Ans -YES
4. Will she admit, what she has done is wrong? Ans - NO
5. Is her actions typical of a Polish woman married to a foreigner in Poland? Ans - I can't say all Polish women would react in the same way.
OP Avalon 4 | 1,068
5 Sep 2011 #109
Just clarify what you meant regarding the ticket part and all will be clear I'm sure.

The ticket should not have been issued, there is inadequate signage in this square and as was rightly pointed out, it would have been kicked out of court. The point I was trying to make was that the ticket was issued by mistake, but, if I had not queried it, I would have had to pay a fine for something which was not my fault. I had bought a parking ticket to allow me to park for 2 hours and displayed it inside the windscreen, this was why I was so suprised to get a ticket.

It does not matter anyway, I criticised Poland so pawian will always believe I am a liar, Polish people are never wrong ;-)
teflcat 5 | 1,032
5 Sep 2011 #110
Avalon. Give it up, mate. You'll never get some people to admit that the bureaucracy here is often primitive compared with other countries. Their comments only confirm your observations.

From a personal point of view I'm happy to say that things are slowly getting better in many areas. When we were building a house here we found some offices very efficient and helpful; the staff had obviously been on training courses. My wife asked one guy what vodka he drank-she wanted to thank him, not bribe him- but he insisted that he was only doing his job. We were very impressed. It'll take a while for every place to become like this but I'm optimistic.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
5 Sep 2011 #111
You just need to lighten them up somehow. Otherwise, you will often come up against defensiveness. It's all about using your skills as a human to get through to them. I met sb who looked stuffy and defensive but she expedited my wedding date which wasn't convenient for her. I will forever have my wedding date on my birthday thanks to her. There are good sorts :) :)
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,444
5 Sep 2011 #112
Have you ever noticed that a Polish person is never wrong

I know where you are coming from and I agree. I have nothing to add, because my blood pressure would go up- and we don't want it, do we;)
Seanus 15 | 19,706
5 Sep 2011 #113
Aphro, this is your chance to shine :)
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,444
5 Sep 2011 #114
I have shined enough on PF, haven't I;) Frankly too tired to vent all the frustrating moments- still think that Poland is one of the good countries to live:), but I agree with Avalon. In a long run is it not that easy to tolerate so many things he mentions, after all the devil is in the details:).

As for the Blame game I know it too well from my family and it is frustrating- use to take it seriously, but I was driving myself crazy. Must be a Polish thing to blame it on somebody else- not everyone is like that here, but I try to stay away from people like that if I can. Sometimes I have to deal with that crap, but when I try to explain what they are doing, they become even more defensive - what is the point- choose your battles wisely:)

I just do my thing now and try to get the most out of life.

One of my students asked me why I returned from Canada and I said: wszedzie dobrze, gdzie nas nie ma. The grass is always greener ......

It is good to vent though:)
pawian 173 | 12,567
5 Sep 2011 #115
=Avalon]When I make a mistake, I accept it, hold my hand up and get on with my life.

Really? Do you also refund the damages when you flunk your job? :):):):)

Sorry, darling, I don`t believe it. :):):)

=Avalon]Really!!! as a developer/builder for 40 years, I never realised that!!!.

Come on, another lie. What kind of a developer are you? You come here to complain about Polish culture like a boy bullied by his classmates. You should have a thicker skin than that. :):):):)

=Avalon]You want to learn to read dipsiht!!!.where did I say in my original post that I paid a fine for parking? I said that "I got a ticket"

Oops, I am sorry. Now I realise these are two different things. I supposed you used a mental shortcut. :):):)

=warszawski]Interesting retort Pawian, but as always your words are to provoke.

You are lying. Half of my posts are serious.
Yes, the other half are provocations indeed but only when I smell a rat.

I did smell a rat in Avalon`s story and I was right with that parking ticket.

I also didn`t accept your example because it has nothing to do with this thread. It is simply taken from the moon- as we say here in Poland (completely abstract).

=warszawski]In response to your questions, experienced and wise enough to have lived and experienced things you will only ever dream of, that I guarantee you of.

=Avalon]With age comes experience and wisdom. Something you will never achieve.

:):):):):):)

Guys, Warszawski and Avalon, I feel so little next to you. :):):):):) Your experience is insurmountable. :):):):):)
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
5 Sep 2011 #116
Things are definitely getting better - I had a case when I went to register my right to vote. First of all, the woman refused to even try - so we told her that the law allowed me. She tried, but couldn't find how to do it on the computer - so her, and a bunch of other workers got together to figure it out. And they did - they admitted they didn't know about it, but they didn't have any issue with processing it once they found out how.

I honestly think that a lot of problems here are caused by not being prepared - usually, the law specifies exactly what is needed, and it's your job to deliver it, not the clerk to tell you what's needed.
gumishu 11 | 5,335
5 Sep 2011 #117
I honestly think that a lot of problems here are caused by not being prepared - usually, the law specifies exactly what is needed, and it's your job to deliver it, not the clerk to tell you what's needed.

so actually the state is not very helpful even though they have hired some 100 000 new clerks during the times of PO-PSL coalition
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
5 Sep 2011 #118
To be honest, why does the State need to be helpful? It's a pain in the ass when you go to an office and have to wait behind some moron who couldn't read the information - especially when I always make sure that everything is 'right' before going. I was in the local ZUS office a few days ago - and some prat didn't even bother to fill in his NIP and REGON before going to the window. I mean, seriously!

Perhaps the 100,000 extra explains why the service has dramatically improved in the last couple of years, then?
poland_
5 Sep 2011 #119
I also didn`t accept your example because it has nothing to do with this thread. It is simply taken from the moon, as we say here in Poland - completely abstract.

Well as the two boys " who took the moon" went on to be the leaders of Poland, maybe not so abstract.

You are lying. Half of my posts are serious.

well to quote you Paw on this subject ( from this thread)

Are you crazy? Don`t you understand that all your other examples are doubtful too in result? I would never buy a basket of apples if I found one rotten apple in it.

What are we to do in the future, Paw - decide if your post is serious or provocations indeed or just take them all as rotten apples, based on your own admission.
pawian 173 | 12,567
5 Sep 2011 #120
=Avalon]I have tried to adapt, but there seems to be no logical thinking here,

Exactly.

Countries can be divided into two kinds: logical and intuitive.

Poland is certainly an intuitive country. This is Polish character, nature, style of life. If you can`t accept it, take the money you earned in Poland and get out of here and live off the interest, as you said.

I will tell you sth - I don`t want to live in a logical country like Germany or Scandinavian ones because they are so boring.

I prefer Poland because it is so unpredictable. And that`s what makes life so fascinating here. :):):):)

If after 8 years you still haven`t developed this fascination, Poland is not for you and you better leave. Why should you be so stressed?

=warszawski]What are we to do in the future, Paw - decide if your post is serious or provocations indeed or just take them all as rotten apples, based on your own admission.

Warsz, in your case, I really don`t care what you do with my posts. :):):) Take them as you want, but as to yourself, in the future, could you provide less crappy examples illustrating some traits of Polish character under discussion? :):):)


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