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Medical Malpractice in Poland - seeking accountability?


PWEI 3 | 612
24 Oct 2011 #91
it ceases to amaze me the nerve of those people who come to Poland and spend all day complaining about the system, if you don't like it get out

It never ceases to amaze me how utterly retarded pseudo-Polish people can be. FYI: we pay for the shiitty excuse of a public health care system in Poland and that means we are perfectly entitled to point out that it is little short of a national disgrace. How much tax have you paid in Poland in the last ten years?

And by the way, aren't you the same person who says that "No sane person relies on the Polish medical system"? Right here. I assume that you will now be leaving Poland.
polmed 1 | 216
24 Oct 2011 #92
Poland is good and beats the place he has come from.

I think the same , there are not too many countries which offer the decent standard of living for so little money eg. prices of land , labour , materials , food , healthcare , education . I have got a family member, who has been diagnosed with skin cancer, but not so malignant . After being diagnosed with a cancer it has been removed within a week with laser . All was for free and was done in a public system . Nobody was expecting any bribes . I have a frend, who is a doctor in UK and he told me that in UK a person would be treated with an ointment instead of laser because laser is too expensive . I am lucky I live in Poland and have an access to the best possible treatement and I can be treated by the most competent doctors

I don`t believe in any of your stories . If some doctors took any bribes it was long time ago and I just admire your imaginative attitude .

I just can`t understand, why you are stuck here , go back from where you came from .
Stu 12 | 522
24 Oct 2011 #93
I have a frend, who is a doctor in UK and he told me that in UK a person would be treated with an ointment instead of laser

Conveniently leaving out the truth, as usual. A common treatment for basal cell carcinoma -- the most common type of skin cancer worldwide -- is topical (applied to skin only) creams such as imiquimod, diclofenac, and fluorouracil (Efudex, Carac). They are used for the treatment of superficial basal cell carcinoma when conventional methods are impractical, such as in the case of multiple lesions or difficult treatment sites on the face or scalp. It is also used to treat actinic keratosis (also called solar keratosis), which can lead to more serious invasive squamous cell carcinoma if left untreated.

Have a look here ... skincancercollege.com/Default.aspx?tabid=168

But hey ... why should you ever tell the truth anyway ... ? Maybe your "friend" should consider going on a refresher course - his/her knowledge seems to be a wee bit outdated.
OP Foreigner4 12 | 1,768
24 Oct 2011 #94
^
I have to say, that was impressive.
hythorn 3 | 580
24 Oct 2011 #95
this is the unfortunat thing about PolontheMed and her posts. One or two facts then a heap of lies or some convenient omissions

she is someone who would not offer help to anyone in need and a sad reflection on what has happened to Poland

Stu, have you received medical training? you explanation was indeed most succinct
peterweg 37 | 2,319
24 Oct 2011 #96
Not having toilet paper or soap or paper towels is not a mistake: it is a symptom of a health care service that simply does not work.

Its a sign of a country that spends only 2.3% of its GDP on health against the 7.5% average in the First World. With GDP per capital half Western Europe's levels .

(The USA spends 14-16% (I believe), not that it seems effectively spent).

Buying health insurance is probably a good idea in Poland, anyone got a recommendation?

For those critical of the Polish health system a simple solution, stop freeloading on the public system and get private cover full stop. Foreigner4 sorry to say but Poland is not for you with your attitude.

Agreed, after all, the Polish system does really cost anything in taxes. You are not paying for the public system.
Stu 12 | 522
24 Oct 2011 #97
Stu, have you received medical training?

Only BATLS-UK (Battlefield Advanced Trauma Life Support), the military variant of ATLS (Advanced Trauma Life Support).
polmed 1 | 216
24 Oct 2011 #98
Conveniently leaving out the truth, as usual

What was not true in my post , may I know ? What was inconvenient ?

As usual

, why such a biased comment ? The patient was treated with the best procedure , while in the UK he would be left with creams , why not giving a patient the most effective treatment possible ?

But hey ... why should you ever tell the truth anyway ... ? Maybe your "friend" should consider going on a refresher course - his/her knowledge seems to be a wee bit outdated.

Why do you think my friend` s ( british born and educated doctor ) knowledge is outdated, if he mentioned the same type of treatment which you cited in your source yourself, which is the ointment treatment .

If you have nothing important to say, just don`t say anything . You haven` t said anything contributing except of admitting, that in UK doctors use ointments, which is exactly what I said .

Polish healthcare system is not dysfunctional as you guys claim . It works the same as in most civilized countries including the States and the UK . The difference is that it is much effective and way cheaper . Look at the expenditures of most countries for the system and compare it with Poland .

If other countries spent so little as Poland spends their system would collapse in just few days . We spend 10 times less than USA . So I only wonder how it can work as it works for so little money . Polish people don`t die on the streets although Poland spends according to WHO 919 USD , but the USA spends 6719 USD . Thats a miracle what Poles do and achieve for such a funny amount of money .

It is so easy to criticize, but may you advice Polish Ministry of Health how to make the system more effective for so little money , I am sure that if you give them a reasonable advice they will hire you as consultants and you can contribute to our country in a very effective way , instead of complaining and whining all the time .
PWEI 3 | 612
24 Oct 2011 #99
Its a sign of a country that spends only 2.3% of its GDP on health against the 7.5% average in the First World.

Yawn. Please don't pluck numbers from the air to support whatever rubbish you're banging on about now: according to the Economist Intelligence Unit Poland spent an estimated 7.1% of GDP on healthcare in 2010 (eiu.com/index.asp?layout=ib3PrintArticle&article_id=468300231&printer=printer).

Buying health insurance is probably a good idea in Poland, anyone got a recommendation?

Getting a job with an employer who gives private healthcare as part of your package is a better idea.

Agreed, after all, the Polish system does really cost anything in taxes. You are not paying for the public system.

Really? So if the Polish taxpayer isn't paying for it, who does pay for it? And remember that last time I checked fewer than half the people in Poland actually pay any tax.
Stu 12 | 522
24 Oct 2011 #100
why such a biased comment ? The patient was treated with the best procedure , while in the UK he would be left with creams

Because you started to make a biased comment, which wasn't based on facts AT ALL. Suppose you have a basal cell carcinoma on your eyelid, do you really think they will treat it with laser?? I shouldn't hope so ... they will use a cream. And what if you have several carcinomas all over your face? They will zap the living daylights out of you? Think, Monia ... please. Our dear Lord has given us a brain for a purpose. Use it. Topical treatments are a common form of treatment, all over the world.

people don`t die on the streets

No ... they don't. But the waiting lists over here are appalling, with people having to wait so long, for example, to see a cardiologist, that they die before seeing one.

Before bragging about how great the Polish system is, you might want to read this (/en/633/poland/health/?page=3 - where it says that "There is often a long waiting list to see consultant doctors, despite the fact that Poland has more consultants than GPs."). Fact of the matter is ... all public health care systems suck, more or less.

List_of_countries_by_total_health_e xpenditure_%28PPP%29_per_capita

Please don't tell me that your contention is that the lower on this list you are, the better your health care system, or even the most efficient for that matter?! North Korea is even way further down the list, but that doesn't mean they are very efficient - well, if you think letting your patients die is efficient, then of course it is good to be way down the list.
PWEI 3 | 612
24 Oct 2011 #101
Before bragging about how great the Polish system is, you might want to read this.

And after Moania has finished reading that, perhaps she would like to read something about her claim that Polish doctors are well paid:

Doctors are poorly paid, which may help to account for a relatively low doctor/patient ratio, of an estimated 2.1 physicians per 1,000 population in 2010.

eiu.com/index.asp?layout=ib3PrintArticle&article_id=468300231
polmed 1 | 216
24 Oct 2011 #102
It is irrelevant how much of budgetary expeditures a country spendsb on healthcare , if a budget is small the real number is still low .This is a case of Poland . Our budget can`t be compared with bigger or economically stronger and more populated countries.

Really? So if the Polish taxpayer isn't paying for it, who does pay for it?

Your comment is unmeaningful as always . To receive the healthcare in Poland you need to pay the insurance to ZUS , if you are employed , it is up for the employer to pay or if you are self-employed it is up to you . If you don`t pay you will not get into a public healthcare system . Tax office and ZUS are two separate institutions . It is not like in the UK or Canada where all the money for healthcare comes from taxes.
PWEI 3 | 612
24 Oct 2011 #103
To receive the healthcare in Poland you need to pay the insurance to ZUS , if you are employed , it is up for the employer to pay or if you are self-employed it is up to you .

No Moania, if one is self-employed, one is required to pay ZUS. If one is employed, one and one's employer are required to pay ZUS (with the money being deducted before it gets to one).

Tax office and ZUS are two separate institutions . It is not like in the UK or Canada where all the money for healthcare comes from taxes.

Yes Moania, I know that instead of me just making a single monthly tax payment, I have to make five payments (I'm sure that that makes sense to somebody somewhere). However, I take the approach that any fee charged levied by a government is a tax and as such say that healthcare in Poland is paid for by the Polish taxpayer.

Our budget can`t be compared with bigger or economically stronger and more populated countries.

So perhaps it might be better to try low-tech (i.e. cheap) solutions before trying high-tech (i.e. expensive) solutions?
Stu 12 | 522
24 Oct 2011 #104
her claim that Polish doctors are well paid

Salary of a GP in the Netherlands - if you have your own practice, you earn approx. € 96K a year (currently PLN 421.775 a year, or PLN 35.148 a month). If you work as one of the GP's in a general medical practice, you earn between €4.755 and €6.155 a month (currently between PLN 20.891 and PLN 27.042 a month).

Surely Monia doesn't want to make us believe that GP's (or even specialists in a hospital) in Poland earn that much, does she? To be honest ... I wouldn't be surprised if the GP's over here make about 10% of that.

Source: in Dutch - [
youchooz.nl/beroepen/huisarts/50/salaris/5
polmed 1 | 216
24 Oct 2011 #105
polmed:Please don't tell me that your contention is that the lower on this list you are, the better your health care system.

Can you post something relevant , you haven`t said anything different from what I said previously . I haven`t told you where the cancer cells were . So maybe you should concentrate on my questions and answer them instead of giving wrong justifications like : don't tell me that your contention is that the lower on this list you are, the better your health care system,

which I didn`t claim .

Give us that secret solution , which most government members don`t know , how to run our healthcare system and make it more effective for peanuts .

The Nobel prize nomination in economics is awaiting for you, guys , that`s for sure !!!! LOLs. That`s my answer for now , I need to get back to my duties .
Knee Grow
24 Oct 2011 #106
I'll excuse any farting sounds that accompany your explanation as it is clearly due to your head being up your a**

HOPE YOU SMELL IT ALSO AS I LOVE kapusta:)i once took a friend to hospital in canada and had to wait 31/2 hrs before even a doctor could check him.

Getting a job with an employer who gives private healthcare as part of your package is a better idea.

not everyone is a INGLIS TICHR that they want to look for a job.

No ... they don't. But the waiting lists over here are appalling, with people having to wait so long, for example, to see a cardiologist, that they die before seeing one.

and do you think it is not in UK,USA & canada?and how much it costs?if you dont have good health insurance you are doomed in those countries.

Froget above all why do you freaking guys then come to Poland> seriously why?GTF out!
polmed 1 | 216
24 Oct 2011 #107
If one is employed, one and one's employer are required to pay ZUS (with the money being deducted before it gets to one).

You troll has just repeated my post : this is what I said

To receive the healthcare in Poland you need to pay the insurance to ZUS , if you are employed , it is up for the employer to pay or if you are self-employed it is up to you . If you don`t pay you will not get into a public healthcare system . Tax office and ZUS are two separate institutions . It is not like in the UK or Canada where all the money for healthcare comes from taxes.

So , dodn`t distort my comments .

So perhaps it might be better to try low-tech (i.e. cheap) solutions before trying high-tech (i.e. expensive) solutions?

Like what , enlighten us .

Surely Monia doesn't want to make up believe that GP's (or even specialists in a hospital) in Poland earn that much, does she? To be honest ... I wouldn't be surprised if the GP's over here make about 10% of that.

I cited polish GP salary in my earlier post . It is not high at all, when you compare them with Dutch doctors . Who said otherwise . It is too low , in my opinion . But doctors are not as poor as you claim . They can make 10 000 - 30 000 PLN a month, working in private clinics, what means in Polish standards as rather high, taking into consideration a ratio of salary and expeditures you make in Poland .
PWEI 3 | 612
24 Oct 2011 #108
not everyone is a INGLIS TICHR that they want to look for a job.

Deepak, do you really think that any language schools give private medical insurance as part of their package?

and do you think it is not in UK,USA & canada?and how much it costs?if you dont have good health insurance you are doomed in those countries.

Yes, anybody who attempts to rely on the NHS is simply going to die....

Froget above all why do you freaking guys then come to Poland> seriously why?GTF out!

Because Poland is a very nice place to live. Of course it is not perfect but we want to work on making the bad things better.

Now why are you still in Poland? Haven't you realised that your reputation here is now so bad that nobody is ever going to dream of doing business with you and so none of your attempted scams will ever work?

You troll has just repeated my post : this is what I said

No, you said that to receive healthcare one has to pay ZUS. I pointed out that it is obligatory to pay ZUS if one is employed or is self-employed. The fact that ZUS payments are a mandatory levy imposed by the government makes them a tax and thus the healthcare system here is paid for by the taxpayer.

Like what , enlighten us .

Perhaps trying a very commonly used topical cream before using a laser?

But doctors are not as poor as you claim . They can make 10 000 - 30 000 PLN a month, working in private clinics

Sources please.
peterweg 37 | 2,319
24 Oct 2011 #109
Yawn. Please don't pluck numbers from the air to support whatever rubbish you're banging on about now: according to the Economist Intelligence Unit Poland spent an estimated 7.1% of GDP on healthcare in 2010 (source).

Didn't pick them out of the air, but I cannot understand how the figures are so off the mark for many countries, UK and Poland. UK is quoted at near 12% in Eurostat and 8-9% elsewhere. Its was 2.4% in 2008 for Poland according to one source. If the 7.1 % figure is correct then the service is pretty crap.
PWEI 3 | 612
24 Oct 2011 #110
Its was 2.4% in 2008 for Poland according to one source.

So far our only source for that figure is you.

If the 7.1 % figure is correct then the service is pretty crap.

Which is kind of the point of this thread really.
magpie 6 | 133
24 Oct 2011 #111
Agreed, after all, the Polish system does really cost anything in taxes. You are not paying for the public system.

Is that the view from your London home? And if the money doesn't come from taxes it must come from the EU? What are the other option? What a load of pish! There is no non-private system in the world that isn't funded by tax of some description.

BTW, do you get really angry at your Polish friends when they use the NHS?
Do you get on the Polish language forums and tell all the Poles to leave the UK whenever they complain about the it?
Do you get angry about the money that gets pumped in the the EU by Polish tax payers in the UK? Somehow I doubt it.

Silence hey?

What you basically said is that Polish people only deserve 2nd best and shouldn't complain and if foreigners say anything then they should leave, very f'king mature. The response is a bit like the one received by that Colombian American who along with his Polish wife, were assaulted in Gdansk.

"I love Poland"
"I got attacked"

......."Well if you don't like getting attacked, why don't you f'ck off"
......."yeah, what he said, f'uck off if you don't like being punched"

What is this? F'king five year old week? A child would have more mature and rational conversation than that.

And....

I actually like it here, but if I do f'ck off, there'll be a few more unemployed Poles. After all, how dare I come here all bill paying and showing off my wealth by contributing to ZUS and VAT payments! Yeah, what a f'king leech. A bill paying, employing, subsidiser. I should just f'ck off, along with my Polish mrs who complained about a crap doctor. What a traitor she is eh?

The trouble is that tongue in cheek rant probably sounds quite reasonable to you, yeah?

Actually, is that the cause of your resentment? Is it a bit of self loathing is it? You won't live here yourself, but you'll be damned if you let a foreigner criticize it?

Why don't you come back, or are you in the UK to get what you can out of it before you leave anyway?

And you bandy about the word "freeloader".

Christ on a bike!
peterweg 37 | 2,319
24 Oct 2011 #112
BTW, do you get really angry at your Polish friends when they use the NHS?

I live in Poland and no I don't care if my Polish friends use the NHS, they are taxpayers and have been all their lives. Newcomers pay taxes too, of course they can use the NHS.

No.
No.
Are you deaf?

The response is a bit like the one received by that Colombian American who along with his Polish wife, were assaulted in Gdansk.

Never said anything what they deserve. If find it very difficult to believe that Poland is spending 7.1% of GDP on healthcare, I'll look further into. I know the money isn't going on wages or new hospitals. My own experience of healthcare in Poland is that its basic but ok-ish.

Poland may deserve better, but the country is, if you haven't noticed, still poor. Not surprising that healthcare is underfunded. The UK has almost as much difficulty and its GDP per capita is twice Poland.

I won't bother responding to your second post as its incoherent and irrelevant, assuming it was directed at me..
PWEI 3 | 612
24 Oct 2011 #113
If find it very difficult to believe that Poland is spending 7.1% of GDP on healthcare, I'll look further into. I know the money isn't going on wages or new hospitals.

Go to pretty much any small or medium-sized Polish town (the poorer the better). Walk round until you find the three nicest office buildings in town: one of them is guaranteed to be the ZUS office.
magpie 6 | 133
24 Oct 2011 #114
peterweg

Sorry, it was actually aimed at wielka pan.

Apart from the "health care money doesn't come from taxes" statement.
polmed 1 | 216
24 Oct 2011 #115
I actually like it here, but if I do f'ck off, there'll be a few more unemployed Poles.

The Polish NFZ system is for poor people , pensioners and some unlucky unemployed people . If you claim that you are so wealthy , why does your wife depend on public system . I pay my contributions to ZUS , Tax office and still don`t go to public system and leave it for people who don`t have any other options . That is my contribution to my country . I pay my taxes on time and have never got back anything in exchange . I just think that if I get old then maybe I will be in need to take back from my country in a form of healthcare what I payed earlier .

No one says that there is no place for you people , but you complain one after another . This is something that Polish people will never accept . No country is perfect , but hey there is nothing positive in Poland according to you , people .
Wroclaw 44 | 5,384
24 Oct 2011 #116
The Polish NFZ system is for poor people , pensioners and some unlucky unemployed people

i find that rather insulting. but then again, your strong point was never tact.
OP Foreigner4 12 | 1,768
24 Oct 2011 #117
HOPE YOU SMELL IT ALSO AS I LOVE kapusta:)

I'm sure everyone can "smell" it and it's quite obvious what your "diet" is comprised of.

i once took a friend to hospital in canada and had to wait 31/2 hrs before even a doctor could check him.

And?

But, I implore you now, what did you mean by the following statement:

let Poland grow in its own natural way

Go on now, explain what that all entails.
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
24 Oct 2011 #118
The Polish NFZ system is for poor people , pensioners and some unlucky unemployed people .

I've used it and I'm none of those three. Also, people with quite a reasonable income sometimes need major surgery or emergency treatment. They don't all go private.

I get old then maybe I will

As a language trainer I feel professionally responsible to tell you that on the basis of your profile photo you should be using the present perfect if not the past simple.
wielki pan 2 | 250
24 Oct 2011 #119
Sorry, it was actually aimed at wielka pan.

Thanks, understand that Poland compares pretty well to medical systems of other countries, keeping in mind that Poland is not as rich as those countries, I'm sure a person living in the Ukraine would view the health system in Poland as excellent, people like you magpie have strange expectations, which I find very annoying. Horror stories in the hosptial system occur everywhere. If you want something better well its only a question of digging a bit deeper in your pocket and forking out. I just find it disgusting that a foreigner would be critical of the public health system, If a pole was critical of the public health system in GB etc he would be told to go back where he came from.
magpie 6 | 133
24 Oct 2011 #120
If you claim that you are so wealthy , why does your wife depend on public system

The wealth comment was tongue in cheek. But for the record, she has asked at least two of the specialists if she should be seen privately - at my suggestion as her health is more important than any money we may have saved - and was told not to bother by said doctors. She has, BTW seen two of them privately prior to being put into the system, which had more to do with expediency and paid. Each visit was approx 125zl and a receipt was issued.

Unless you pay for medical treatment at Harley st / 'expat' centric style treatment, you have no choice to use public hospitals, as we have been told by the doctors, but their knowledge might not be on the same level as your jingoism.

If a pole was critical of the public health system in GB etc he would be told to go back where he came from.

But even if he is correct? You're no doubt correct, but telling people to go as soon as they point out perceived shortcomings isn't very constructive either. Do that in the new world and there'd be no one left in it.

Again, the treatment is not for me, but for my wife. Short of an emergency, I'd be happy to go back to the UK to be treated, I'm not fussed either way. The irony there being that no doubt the Daily Mail brigade would say 'Look at him, lives overseas but comes back here for health treatment.' Both arguments ignore the fact that tax payers fund the system.

The other thing is that none of my Polish friends - apart from a SIL who says all emigrants are traitors (unquote) - have taken offence. then again, a face to face conversation can't really be replicated in forum.


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