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Maintenance & Rights: Polish mother & child in Poland, Irish father in the UK


frustrated 1 | 8
12 Jul 2011 #1
I've noticed the abuse reluctant fathers get on here so fully expect short-sighted abuse, however could you please help me or give advice on the following:

I met the Polish girl a few years back in the UK a month before I was due to head overseas to work. The night we met she asked if I'd "like to have some fun anyway" before I left so of course I obliged. I wore condoms, she was on the pill "apparently" and that was fine, we had our fun. However just before I left the UK I got a call to say she was pregnant. My initial reaction was shock of course but then suspicion - was I the only fella etc etc? To me it was a no-brainer; I was leaving the country indefinitely and I didn't want a child brought up in the world without a dad and in another country so I advised an abortion. She ignored my advice and decided to move back to Poland to have the child so I dealt with that and accepted her decision.

Move on 9 months and the child is born, I've moved back to the UK after the contract fell through and I don't feel any connection with the child having not been there for the pregnancy or birth. I meet her mother in the UK shortly after the birth (she didn't bring the child) and assuming the child to be mine I agree to pay £200 a month. Myself and my family visited Poland for the Christening, I signed her Christening paper despite not understanding the language obviously and then go back to London. As far as I know my name is not on the birth cert but her mother asked if I could sort out the paperwork - I declined saying I wouldn't go that far without a DNA test despite being fairly sure the child was mine.

I return almost a year later for the child's first birthday with my parents and my then new girlfriend; the mother and her family totally shunned my girlfriend but she was there to support ME so I explained that if I was to be part of the child's life and upbringing then she would need to know my partner equally. It all started going downhill from there - the mother ignored my emails from that day on (not that she was responsive before), wouldn't send me photos of the child yet would send photos to my sister and parents and generally started looking for more money (nothing else). All the time I was also sending clothes, books, toys, DVDs - the practical things but I was given no choices from day one in where the child lived, the child's name, anything! Friends and family also knitted and sent clothes but we never got photos of the child wearing anything or got any thanks from her mother for all the goodwill.

By the time of the child's second birthday I said "enough is enough" due to the mother's behaviour and cut the monthly flow of money, explaining by email that the child's mother got a job that I wasn't funding what I could see was her as much as the child. Bear in mind that the whole time the mother (an only child herself) and child are living at home with her parents who are reasonably well off and living in a nice house with spacious gardens and a nearly new car. I agreed that I would continue to send essentials, small gifts and books etc donated by my friends and family and save the money I was originally sending for when schooling started. I would also send emergency money if needed for something important such as medical care or whatever, as being blunt, the child was already being clothed by me and my family and wasn't going hungry with her grandparents!

I got no response for over 6 months until today when I received a court letter demanding 1,500 PLN a month and that my name be given to the child as a double-barrelled surname. I cannot afford that much for several reasons that I'm not going into but I also do not believe that the money will be spent directly on the child therefore I am going to contest this to the death.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but I think this woman is being totally unreasonable and acting in her own interests and not that of the child!? I've been having a tough time as it is for the last two years but now have this hanging over me. It's not that I don't want to pay or don't want anything to do with the child, quite the opposite; I just don't want to deal with her despicable mother who wants to go the legal route without prior discussion. I want the child to make her own mind up if she wants me to be part of her life (because let's face it, she doesn't speak the same language and will have a totally different upbringing to me so might never want to know me), if she wants my name and if she wants an Irish passport - I have no problem with any of that! I also provided money in monthly instalments but the actions (or lack of) of her mother screwed that up hence why I decided it was better to plan for the more expensive future schooling years rather than deal with an irresponsible and unreasonable person such as the mother. Furthermore my parents gave almost £1,000 in cash which wasn't mentioned in the court summons, nor were any of the other clothes and gifts mentioned nor the fact I offered to bring both of them to the UK to meet my parents and save on costs!!

Can I stand firm and do things how I wish or can she legally extract money from me in the UK? Do I have a case? I will get a DNA test done as a first step, but assuming the child is mine what is the likely outcome as all hope is lost for reconciliation with her mother.

Sorry for the long-winded post!! Thanks in advance for any positive advice or input; any links to solicitors specialising in cases such as this would also be helpful.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
12 Jul 2011 #2
Okay - first thing you need to do is get yourself a good Polish lawyer on the case - we can recommend you one if you wish.

A DNA test is imperative - I'd say that it's almost certain that it's not your child (the circumstances add up nicely - woman gets pregnant, needs to find a father with cash, etc) - but anyway, the Polish court will order a DNA test to be done if you challenge the paternity.

If it turns out to be yours, then this is where a lawyer comes in - yes, you can be chased to the UK for your debts to the Polish court. The problem is that the Polish courts decide how much is 'right' - based not on any figures, but rather based on what the court thinks you should pay. Maniacal, but true. This is why it's so important to get a good lawyer on the case.

If you want, I can even give you the details of a reputable testing centre who are accredited to provide paternity tests to the court.
OP frustrated 1 | 8
12 Jul 2011 #3
Thanks for your swift reply. Solicitor details and DNA testing info would be much appreciated as obviously this is all new to me!

My stance will always be that I want to support my daughter, but not have to give a penny to the mother even if I have to buy every single item here in the UK and send it to Poland myself!!! I believe 1,500PLN is a ridiculous amount given that they both live at home and are supported by the grandparents in terms of the basics and have been receiving gifts, educational toys and money from both me and my family...
Harry
12 Jul 2011 #4
I believe 1,500PLN is a ridiculous amount

Sadly, what you believe to be a ridiculous amount may not be what a Polish considers to be ridiculous. While it is certainly higher than average, you may well get some middle-aged (read: commie system trained) woman as your family court judge and she may think 'foreigner = rich'.

Personally I wouldn't be worrying about this until the DNA results come back. In the unlikely event they come back positive, you're best off negotiating a settlement which states a figure and lays down access rights. Make sure your first proposal clearly sets out access rights (e.g. four weeks during the summer plus ten days at Easter or Christmas each year plus x number of Friday to Sunday weekends). Be prepared to drop the access rights if she insists on it: that way when she starts getting 'clever' in the future, after the support has been agreed, you can take her to court for cutting off your access tontine child (illegal and almost guaranteed to get the judge's back up from the off).
isthatu2 4 | 2,704
12 Jul 2011 #5
Good for you for doing what you felt was right even with the obvious doubt as to whether this child is yours.
I did do a face palm though when you mentioned taking your current girlfriend...................I can understand why you did it,but,as a wild guess I bet you had to do a lot of "convincing" before your Mum and your G/F thought that was a "good" idea....

All the best mate,remember though,if the little one is yours,just take 5 deep breaths everytime you deal with her mum,no point in punishing the little one for the behaviour of her mother and grandmother.
southern 75 | 7,096
12 Jul 2011 #6
Next time finish in her mouth and insist on swallowing.
Daisy 3 | 1,227
12 Jul 2011 #7
Pity your dad didn't do the same with your mum
Ironside 49 | 10,303
12 Jul 2011 #8
I will get a DNA test done as a first step,

Sort that out first.

but not have to give a penny to the mother even if I have to buy every single item here in the UK and send it to Poland myself!!!

All above is irrelevant if the child is yours.
I think that if not married woman become pregnant it should be up to her to support a kid, and good will of the father - only my opinion.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
12 Jul 2011 #9
Thanks for your swift reply. Solicitor details and DNA testing info would be much appreciated as obviously this is all new to me!

Okay, I'll send you a PM containing details of both.

Anyone else willing to do the same with different companies?
OP frustrated 1 | 8
12 Jul 2011 #10
I can understand why you did it,but,as a wild guess I bet you had to do a lot of "convincing" before your Mum and your G/F thought that was a "good" idea....

Well it was actually my parents and girlfriend who wanted to come as they couldn't bear me going through that on my own! The first time we went to Poland we heard nothing from the mother for days to organise what would happen when we arrived, where we would meet etc. and ended up having to drive to her house and turn up at the doorstep as she wouldn't answer the phone! That forced my girlfriend into a situation she didn't want to be in and neither did I as we thought we were meeting up at the hotel we were staying in etc. and originally agreed to pick both of them up so they wouldn't have to pay a penny.
Wroclaw 44 | 5,387
12 Jul 2011 #11
and good will of the father

it's this good will that has got him into this mess. in the court's eyes he has shown by his actions that he is the father. trying to undo that in a Polish court won't be easy. getting a dna test is going to be damn difficult too, if the mother knows he is not really the father. she won't do it until the court tells her, which eats up time and money.

but of course, the first priority is getting a lawyer asap as the op is liable for payments until the court decides otherwise. and that won't be for a few months yet.
Harry
12 Jul 2011 #12
Anyone else willing to do the same with different companies?

Sent the number of an excellent lawyer in Warsaw who specialises in family law. I've never had any dealings with any DNA testing firms and so can't help there.
Ironside 49 | 10,303
12 Jul 2011 #13
this mess

that how it is now - sadly.
I meant that such cases should be left out of court ie unmarried woman child is her own responsibility - that arrangement would save a lot of aggravation for men.
Midas 1 | 571
12 Jul 2011 #14
Heh...

Just a month or so I remember writing about my Irish friends mentioning the number of Irish guy/Polish gal relationships falling apart nicely along with the crisis in Ireland. Love drying up as the bank accounts did sort of thing.

And now here You are <grins>.

Well, regarding Your particular case:

1) The mother of Your child is working extremely hard to live up to a number of nasty stereotypes about women from Eastern Europe. She is also most likely coached to do so by her Polish family, especially the mum.

It is very safe to assume at this stage that little if any negotiations will be possible ( You are pretty much being considered as a meal ticket at this stage ) and You'll have to act accordingly.

So:

a) Lawyer up,

b) Be ready for a nasty court case that will take at least 1.5 years ( Polish courts and all ).

2) Given the facts of the case You should by all means try to establish, whether You are really the father of the baby.

She sounds exactly the type that would point the finger at the guy with a highest net income.

So challenge paternity. Since You weren't ever married the burden of proof in this matter lies with her.

3)

£200 a month.

A small fortune by Polish family court standards. Is that for triplets?

Assuming You were Polish, the father of the baby and the husband of that "classy" madam You'd most likely be ordered to pay about 60-80 quid a month by the divorce courts.

4)

I got no response for over 6 months until today when I received a court letter demanding 1,500 PLN a month

1.500 PLN... while living with mommy and daddy in Poland.... in a plush suburban home...

You found Yourself a true materialistic Polish skank if there ever was one, sir :-)

5) Read this post:

I need advice: divorce and my rights as a father in Poland

Plenty of good information, especially regarding how the Polish family courts work.

6) After that I doubt You'll need any encouragement to find a Polish lawyer, but if You still do --> I urge You to find one pronto.

If You ignore this advice You will basically be ****** in the ass by the Polish court that will decide You are indeed able to make 10.000 euro net a month in Ireland nowadays ( since Polish courts are just soooooo bursting at the seams with knowledge of Irish economy ) and they will use this to decide how much You're supposed to be paying in alimony.

And if You don't pay they'll go after Your assets in Ireland or the UK.

7) In case You're actually forced to pay up alimony --> A good lawyer will be able, according to what my Polish friends say, make the court rule that she has to account for every nickel and dime of it. Invoices and all.

I'd strongly suggest You give the ***** such treatment.

Best of luck to You, mate, You'll need it.
Monia
12 Jul 2011 #15
I do not have too much time for the broader answer.

I just have a question, which city is the lawsuit pending in?

Besides, do not worry about 1500 zł for a child support . Polish court will not award them on that level (the court always takes into account the child's needs and the possibilities of income of the child`s father ).

If you still study it will be on the lowest level .
Another hint it is always better if you find a local attorney(from the same city as the court case is ) it will save you money .
Harry
12 Jul 2011 #16
Assuming You were Polish, the father of the baby and the husband of that "classy" madam You'd most likely be ordered to pay about 60-80 quid a month by the divorce courts.

Highly unlikely. Even in the worst parts of Poland B it is rare for a woman to be awarded less than 500zl (£110) per month.
Midas 1 | 571
12 Jul 2011 #17
To be completely fair Harry my 60-80 quid was based on what I was told by some of the Polish construction guys I employed in Poland and these conversations took place a few years ago, so You are most likely closer to the truth.
Avalon 4 | 1,068
12 Jul 2011 #18
Monia

If you still study it will be on the lowest level .

I seem to remember a woman asking questions on the forum about a year or so ago. Her partner was being taken to court in Poland for child maintanance. She went into the circumstances, asking what the Polish courts were likely to award. She explained that he was studying for further education and was not earning any money. She got back to the forum at a later date and said that the court had awarded the mother, 2000 PLN a month and that her[i][/i] earnings were taken into account. She has not posted on here since and so I do not know what happened after.
Harry
13 Jul 2011 #19
I remember the exact same poster. I think we concluded that her best bet was to get divorced.

I do hope that you were not posting that comment in order to question Monia's professional competence. As we all know, Monia is a consumate professional who never posts anything which suggests that she has less knowledge of the law than the average secretary and then attempts to bully people into silence about her ill-judged remarks with threats to report them to the public prosecutor.
poland_
13 Jul 2011 #20
I was leaving the country indefinitely and I didn't want a child brought up in the world without a dad and in another country

Very noble of you.

and I don't feel any connection with the child having not been there for the pregnancy or birth. I meet her mother in the UK shortly after the birth (she didn't bring the child) and assuming the child to be mineI agree to pay £200 a month.

On what basis

You signed the child's christening papers as the ?

If you are fairly sure that the child is not yours, why did you allow your family to go to the Christening.

Me thinks, you are caught between the rock and the hard stone. The mother of the child on one side, the new girlfriend on the other, also why would the mother be after an Irish passport for the child, she is Polish and they are part of the EU. The DNA test will prove the truth.

Another hint it is always better if you find a local attorney(from the same city as the court case is ) it will save you money .

The best bit of advice you have received here, get a local Lawyer.
OP frustrated 1 | 8
13 Jul 2011 #21
Monia, I am not so sure about dealing with solictors in Poland when I am in the UK as there will be lots of sending paperwork back and forth without me actually sitting down to discuss the matters. I don't have the spare money to fly over and back either so I need to deal with it in the UK - is that possible? I'm still trying to find a Polish family law specialist here to no avail. I work mainly in East London if anyone has a contact please.

Thanks

The best bit of advice you have received here, get a local Lawyer.

Thanks for the sarcasm warszawski - If you read my posts correctly you'd see I said I've assumedmyself to be the father as I was trusting of this woman, but I've been proven wrong and that she fits into the stereotypical role...

I based the figure on what I could afford, what I thought was right and enough to bring up a child being reared at home with a free roof over her head also coupled with the fact I've sent clothes, toys, books, DVDs, shoes never mind the money and clothes my friends and family have sent!!! Why should I fund for this woman to sit at home on her ass, living off the UK state (albeit a small monthly payment), the Polish state and me???? I am responsible for half of the child's upbringing, not 100% of the mother and child! Someone made the suggestion that I get receipts for everything spent on the child and I have no problem paying that, but I will not be held to ransom.

I NEVER said I didn't think the child wasn't mine but that I needed the DNA test to be 100% sure; my family wanted to support me and made the choice to be at the christening - things were happening so fast that it was a case that we couldn't miss the christening if indeed the child was mine.

Why shouldn't the child also have Irish nationality? Just because Poland is in the EU doesn't mean it's not beneficial to have dual citizenship.

I'm not stuck between my fiancee and the mother as I am committed only to my fiancee and the child - I couldn't care less if I never saw or spoke to the mother again to be honest.

Take your sarcastic and cynical comments elsewhere please...
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
13 Jul 2011 #22
Monia, I am not so sure about dealing with solictors in Poland.

adamslaw.co.uk/polish_clients_english.html

This guy might be able to do the job - a paralegal will be cheaper than a proper lawyer, yet he'll probably be able to do the same job anyway.
poland_
13 Jul 2011 #23
[quot]Thanks for the sarcasm warszawski - If you read my posts correctly you'd see I said I've assumed myself to be the father as I was trusting of this woman, but I've been proven wrong and that she fits into the stereotypical role... [/quote]

Frustrated, the only stereotypical role she fits into today, is that of the " mother" of your child. A mother will always do what is best for child and herself. You don't have to be an Einstein to understand this picture.

Furthermore, all you have done, is present your scenario, the most obvious move would be the DNA test to establish the parentage for the child, if the child turns out to be yours, then you have a emotional and financial responsibility, to child and mother.

It is not often that I agree with David Cameron, although in the case of single mothers bringing up children, it is a burden to society and the want away father should contribute, if the father decides to be irresponsible and avoid their financial and emotional responsibility to child and mother, then they should be stigmatized as any other law breaker.
Midas 1 | 571
13 Jul 2011 #24
I'm still trying to find a Polish family law specialist here to no avail. I work mainly in East London if anyone has a contact please.

I'll have to repeat what I said previously: local lawyer.

Local = usually operating within the jurisdiction of the court that will rule on the case. That means a Polish lawyer based in Poland who happens to speak English ( and is quite versed in family law ) as opposed to an English lawyer based in East London who happens to employ a paralegal who speaks Polish.

This is due to:

a) This case being of the type in which the mother of the child will try to paint You as an uncaring father and nothing will fit better into this picture than the court having to send summons to London town.

b) Some lawyers have a "knack" for winning certain types of cases in certain courts. I mean, judges go to law schools too and usually have to do at least some drinking socializing and shagging while they are there, what more is there to say?

You will forfeit this perk by not going with a local lawyer.

Thanks for the sarcasm warszawski - If you read my posts correctly you'd see I said I've assumed myself to be the father as I was trusting of this woman, but I've been proven wrong and that she fits into the stereotypical role...

Despite the fact that a visible number of Polish women in UK and Ireland are really living up to a number of nasty stereotypes about women from Eastern Europe I'm afraid You'll find plenty of crusading male Polish white knights in shining armour on this forum who'll keep complaining and deriding You for looking out for Your own interests and being logical.

Pay them no heed.
Monia
13 Jul 2011 #25
the court had awarded the mother, 2000 PLN a month

It was probably the case when a child`s father was a man , with income of more than a 10 000 zł a month .

I don`t know your income , so the best idea is to find a local lawyer , after giving him information about your income he will tell you the most probable amount of child`s support the judges award in the area where a child lives .It varies in Poland between regions

who never posts anything which suggests that she has less knowledge of the law than the average secretary and then attempts to bully people into silence about her ill-judged remarks with threats to report them to the public prosecutor.

Write whatever under your nickname and under the names of your alter egos .
OP frustrated 1 | 8
13 Jul 2011 #26
Frustrated, the only stereotypical role she fits into today, is that of the " mother" of your child. A mother will always do what is best for child and herself. You don't have to be an Einstein to understand this picture.

You are not getting my point at all. She's stereotypical in that she's not discussed any of this with me prior to sending the court summons, has accepted money and gifts for two years with no thanks, refused to bring the child to the UK to visit at my cost, is sitting at home doing sweet f.a. and is unwilling in general to discuss the child's future needs. She is doing what's best for herself, not the child as taking the action she has will probably render any relationship the child could have with her father as null and void. She's refusing to teach her English and has no intention of me being involved yet is happy to take all she can from me and my family.

I'm not being irresponsible and avoiding the financial responsibility as you would see, again, if you read my posts correctly. I am trying to do the right thing and look after the child's needs, not the mothers.
Monia
13 Jul 2011 #27
I don't have the spare money to fly over and back either so I need to deal with it in the UK - is that possible? I'm still trying to find a Polish family law specialist here to no avail. I work mainly in East London if anyone has a contact please.

Forget about it, tickets are cheap, a lawyer from the UK does not have permission to represent you in court in Poland. You must have a Polish lawyer, otherwise you will have problems .
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
13 Jul 2011 #28
Monia - a serious question. Any idea, roughly, how much he's likely to pay for a lawyer in this case? A rough number might help him decide what is better?
Wroclaw 44 | 5,387
13 Jul 2011 #29
find a local lawyer in london... ask for initial advice... make it clear that you would like a local lawyer in Poland to deal with the actual case. simples.

every day u spend here talking about it is another one or two hundred zl going to the mother/child.

to be honest i don't know why u don't contact one of the lawyers on the forum... and come to some arrangement.

there must be a list of Polish speaking lawyers in the uk. maybe the embassy has such a list. some advice group might also have a list.
OP frustrated 1 | 8
13 Jul 2011 #30
You must have a Polish lawyer, otherwise you will have problems .

Okay I get the picture ;( It's not going to be easy either way, but how I feel right now about the situation I've been put in is that I wish I'd never met that woman or that I'd never have to go to Poland again. I have no chance with this child being in another country and will more than likely play no part in the upbringing.

I'd rather skip the country or move on so she can't trace me than pay her a penny directly or pay the money into a trust fund or pay directly for receipted purchases...


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