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I need advice: divorce and my rights as a father in Poland


Kurt 2 | 29
23 May 2011 #1
my wife and I are thinking of going to Poland,
The problem is our marriage has been going through a rough patch to a point where we were going to get divorce and it would get nasty we decided perhaps we move to poland and see how it goes but my wife is not sure if she loves me anymore as she said.

I am from outside the EU currently a resident of UK if i go to Poland I will apply for Polishresidency my wife said ok if we move we can live seperately and we can remain married on paper to allow me to apply for the residency because we have a 3 year old daughter.

My fear is that once we are in Poland that my wife could turn around and screw me by exploiting me to pay massive amounts of child support and demand more things because if i dont she will file for divorce and then i will lose my daughter because i wll have to leave Poland.

She was happy with going and so was I, today i said i am not sure about going to Poland because of fear she might screw me over, and this morning she has been on the phone etc to loads of solicitors saying she wants this amount of money and this and that.. this was merely because i said im thinking going to Poland with her given our situation is not the best thing for me.. I dont speak Polish and dont know anyone there.

So what are my rights as a foreigner married to a polish national and we have a kid, if we get to poland and she decides she wants to screw me, will i be able to stay in Poland to be with my daughter? i would appreciate anyones advice who has had or heard of similar situation..

cheers
Harry
23 May 2011 #2
if i go to Poland I will apply for Polish residency

You don't actually need to be married to a Pole in order to have Polish residency. I had it (back when I needed it) and I certainly wasn't married.

if we move we can live seperately and we can remain married on paper to allow me to apply for the residency

A truly terrible idea. Part of the residency permit application is a visit by the police to check that you live where you say that you live. They will also (if they can be bothered) speak to your supposed neighbours to see if you actually live there.

then i will lose my daughter because i wll have to leave Poland.

This is an interesting point: is being the father of a child who lives in Poland sufficient grounds for you to be granted a Polish residency permit? Personally I'd think that you would have a very good case but you'd need to check with the foreigners office in Krakow to see what their stance on the topic is.

So what are my rights as a foreigner married to a polish national and we have a kid, if we get to poland and she decides she wants to screw me,

To be honest, if she decides she wants to screw you over, there is nothing stopping her from taking the kid to Poland and filing for divorce while you are not there.
OP Kurt 2 | 29
23 May 2011 #3
Harry thanks,

(To be honest, if she decides she wants to screw you over, there is nothing stopping her from taking the kid to Poland and filing for divorce while you are not there)

I think the only reason she has not done that is because she wants money from me.
Harry
23 May 2011 #4
Maybe, maybe not. She might find it a lot easier to convince a court in Poland that you should have to pay a stupid amount than she would an English court (although with that said, given some careful planning, you will also find it much easier to convince a Polish court to order you to pay far less than you should).
Midas 1 | 571
23 May 2011 #5
A Polish girl screwing her boyo for money or exploiting him to get more? Calling attorneys behind his back?

Impossible, that would really be a first.

No sir, You're just paranoid, Polish women are nothing like that they're too proud/independent/strong/insert some other crap to do that.

Now, since I'm done with the sarcasm:

1) Polish family courts are amongst the most biased in Europe. 9/10 judges there are female and the rulings unfortunately reflect that.

For example, when deciding upon the amount of alimony, Polish courts will routinely ignore any and all documents proving how much a guy earns.

They will, however, base their decision upon on how much they think a man in that profession working where a guy works can earn.

Yup, You heard correctly, in Your case You'll have a Polish judge, a crusty old lady raised in the communist times, decide how much a "self-employed energy broker" can earn in London then using it as a basis for Your alimony payments.

Not funny at all.

2) The bias mentioned above applies to all aspects of family law: custody, common residence, etc. Frankly speaking, Poland is probably the worst country to get divorced in in Europe for a guy.

3) I am from outside the EU currently a resident of UK if i go to Poland I will apply for Polishresidency my wife said ok if we move we can live seperately and we can remain married on paper to allow me to apply for the residency because we have a 3 year old daughter.

Have You perhaps thought about how weak will that move to Poland make Your position when compared to Your wife's?

You might have a bit of a problem fighting a nasty divorce case if You're being deported to Africa at the same time.

Just saying.

4) My fear is that once we are in Poland that my wife could turn around and screw me by exploiting me to pay massive amounts of child support and demand more things because if i dont she will file for divorce and then i will lose my daughter because i wll have to leave Poland.

Oh yes, You've thought about it.

Your fears are justified.

5)and this morning she has been on the phone etc to loads of solicitors saying she wants this amount of money and this and that.. this was merely because i said im thinking going to Poland with her given our situation is not the best thing for me.. I dont speak Polish and dont know anyone there.

She sounds like a real charmer, that Polish wife of Yours.

My advice is to stand Your ground, don't move to Poland and fight the divorce case in Britain. This way You'll have a better chance for a good ruling and won't have to worry about being deported.

6) So what are my rights as a foreigner married to a polish national and we have a kid, if we get to poland and she decides she wants to screw me, will i be able to stay in Poland to be with my daughter?

You'd have to ask a good family/immigration lawyer about that, but here's the kicker.

Deportation procedure can be ( not that it always is ) fast, strict and harsh.

Establishing Your right of residence based on the fact that You fathered a child with a Polish woman ( Poland could easily get probably 20 million residents based on that ) may be:

a) impossible ( ask a family/immigration lawyer in Poland )

b) tricky

c) time consuming

d) a very long process.

If I were to bet I'd say You'll get deported way before an appropriate organ in Poland grants You said right of residence. Especially if Your wife writes every institution possible about what kind of an animal You are and how You beat her and the child with a tire iron.

Anyways, best of luck, You'll need it.
OP Kurt 2 | 29
23 May 2011 #6
Harry i want to support my daughter.. but as you know i have my own business, my wife said something to me in passing, the law in poland works, if we are divorce i will have to pay child support which is standard but also lets say if i rent a flat in kazimierz for example i will also need to make sure that my ex-wife and my daughter will live in the same standards.. do u know anything about that? so what i have to pay child support and pay her rent?
Harry
23 May 2011 #7
For example, when deciding upon the amount of alimony, Polish courts will routinely ignore any and all documents proving how much a guy earns.

Which swings both ways: one could submit documentation showing that one has a negative net income, the court doesn't bother reading them but once the first decision has been handed down, the documents are deemed to have been accepted by the court!

My advice is to stand Your ground, don't move to Poland and fight the divorce case in Britain. This way You'll have a better chance for a good ruling and won't have to worry about being deported.

That would probably be the best option. Sadly the child support case would be held in Poland if the mother lived there.

Establishing Your right of residence based on the fact that You fathered a child with a Polish woman ( Poland could easily get probably 20 million residents based on that )

But having a Polish child and either a job in Poland or a company in Poland would certainly be enough to get a residency permit.

my wife said something to me in passing, the law in poland works, if we are divorce i will have to pay child support which is standard but also lets say if i rent a flat in kazimierz for example i will also need to make sure that my ex-wife and my daughter will live in the same standards.. do u know anything about that? so what i have to pay child support and pay her rent?

Based on what I know, she is talking out of her arse. I know quite a few people who pay or receive child support but I have never ever heard of anybody being ordered to pay child support and rent for the former partner.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,719
23 May 2011 #8
This is an interesting point: is being the father of a child who lives in Poland sufficient grounds for you to be granted a Polish residency permit? Personally I'd think that you would have a very good case but you'd need to check with the foreigners office in Krakow to see what their stance on the topic is.

Should be no problem - the right of residence of family members is enshrined within EU law. The Chen case clarified this
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_case

To be honest, if she decides she wants to screw you over, there is nothing stopping her from taking the kid to Poland and filing for divorce while you are not there.

As a start, I'd be looking at informing the UK Border Agency that the child is not to be taken outside of the UK. It woudn't be the first (nor the last) time when a Polish woman has fled back to Poland with a child, safe in the knowledge that a foreign father is never going to get a fair deal here.
EdWilczynski
23 May 2011 #9
Kurt,

Going to be honest with you. As a father and Non Pole you are in the weaker position regardless of whether you are EU or non EU.

I am a UK national, I am also married with 2 young boys. Both of whom have British and Polish passports/id cards/birth certificates etc.

I love my wife dearly and trust her 110% and that is the ONLY reason I agreed to it. Some of the documents she was not allowed to obtain without my signature and presence. If I had a shred of doubt there is no way on this God given earth I'd have agreed. You say you are UK resident? That means, I assume you are not a UK national and so I am not really sure how muchhelp the embassy in Poland would be willing to give. You'd need to call them.

Quite simply, you need legal advice buddy.

w w w.familylaw.pl/

This is an overview of legal matters, in not way is it detailed enough but its a start.

Its sounds like she is adamant she will ensure she takes her pound of flesh so the chances of her doing a disappearing act are much slimmer.

Good Luck
OP Kurt 2 | 29
23 May 2011 #10
@ Midas- thanks for your message,

Firstly I am not having a go at Polish woman or labelling them in any way, the reality is that I do have a Polish with :-) that appears to have become a bit dodgy. and no im not being paranoid she told me she will leave with my child and i will never see her again. this same polish wife has not worked since we have been married and we live in a 4 bedroo house and i pay all the bills and food etc. but for her its still not enough..,. so if i have offended any Polish woman i do apologize its not my intention.

Moving along swiftly..

I know moving to Poland will make me very weak especially with no language too, I really want to make things work and thats why i decided to move to Poland but i know moving there with a wife that says she is not sure if she loves me is not the right thing to do. getting divorce in Britian would be better because i will have equall rights as a farther going through the process of divorce in UK would mean shared custody and my wife would not be able to leave UK permanantly with our daughter so she will have to remain in UK.. she made it clear she is not happy here and thats why i compromised and said ok instead of getting divorce here that will mean she will have to stay lets move to poland and see how things work. she is happy i am happy because i can spend time with my daughter and i like Krakow but the fear of arriving there with no leg to stand on is scary..

I know getting a divorce here is best, but this was my last option and one i did not want to come to.. if i can apply for a residency in Poland as a farther to a Polish child I will take a risk and go,,, but i dont want to go to Poland and apply for a residency doc on the grounds of still being married if we are living seperately, thats illegal and also who knows my wife could wake up in a bad mood and decide ah todays the day i get him deported.
Midas 1 | 571
23 May 2011 #11
1) Harry, I'm not qualified to speak on what grants one the right to reside in Poland. I have a ( albeit a bit dusty ) Polish passport, thus I never had to solve any such conundrums myself.

You are indeed correct that it seems very logical that a guy who is a father of a Polish child and is employed / has company ownership in Poland should get residency.

However:

a) I've seen more than my fair share of absurd/corrupt court/administrative decisions during my time in Poland.

b) Based on having fathered a child with a Polish woman and having filed company registration papers with the local registry You could have probably 100.000 Nigerians applying for a Polish residency tomorrow.

Sooner or later someone in Poland will take notice.

2) Which swings both ways:

Everything I've been told by Polish men seems to point towards one conclusion --> Polish family courts usually swing only one way. Not in favour of the father.

3) Sadly the child support case would be held in Poland if the mother lived there.

there is nothing stopping her from taking the kid to Poland and filing for divorce while you are not there

Hardly. There's a little something called a Strasbourg convention ( or some other name, family law isn't my strong suit ). Basically it allows the person whose partner took off and left their country of mutually agreed upon residence with their child to sue said partner in that very country. That reduces the involvement of the organs of the country to which that person fled to excecuting an order issued by a foreign court.

So she wouldn't be able to sue anyone for child support in Poland effectively, because after he files it in London the Polish police will be obliged to put the kid on a plane back to Blighty.

Rather handy and not really liked by Polish women too much. Kurt, check up on that convention and have a London family lawyer fill You in on the details.

4)

Harry i want to support my daughter.. but as you know i have my own business, my wife said something to me in passing, the law in poland works, if we are divorce i will have to pay child support which is standard but also lets say if i rent a flat in kazimierz for example i will also need to make sure that my ex-wife and my daughter will live in the same standards.. do u know anything about that? so what i have to pay child support and pay her rent?

The questions You ask Kurt begin requiring some expertise in Polish family law. So if we start to get deeper into that stuff I'm afraid I'll have to start invoicing You.

Just kidding :-)

You are indeed correct that there's a number of provisions in Polish family law that grant a divorced spouse and the kids some rights of that kind.

Look up article 60 of the Polish family code, it contains at least two ways for a divorced spouse to get on-top-of-the-child-alimony payments from her ex-hubby ( depnds on circumstances of a given case ).

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some extra provision in the custody over the children / alimony to children part which would pertain to having the kid live in a prior-to-divorce standards, which of course would open the floodgates for all sorts of claims from wifey.

5) so if i have offended any Polish woman i do apologize its not my intention.

There's hardly any need for apologies mate, especially when in Your case it seems rather clear that Your wife is trying to bend You over the table and stick one up the poop chute, metaphorically speaking.

6) Based on all of what You wrote Your fears are justified. And calls to atty's the moment You say something she doesn't take well is...well, just low. And fits a certain stereotype about Eastern European women rather nicely.

If I were in Your shoes I'd not move to Poland, period.

his same polish wife has not worked since we have been married and we live in a 4 bedroo house and i pay all the bills and food etc. but for her its still not enough..

Oh, yeah, missed that part. Is Your wife really trying to live up to the stereotype?

Because it surely sounds like it.

Too good for a 4 bedroom house and bills?

Ditch the *****, that's what I'd do.
Koala 1 | 332
23 May 2011 #12
Firstly I am not having a go at Polish woman or labelling them in any way, the reality is that I do have a Polish with :-) that appears to have become a bit dodgy.

It sound like a classic case of Madame Bovary. You have to do something about your situation, but I'm not sure bending to her will will improve things for your family. Maybe you should force her to get a job?
Midas 1 | 571
23 May 2011 #13
Maybe you should force her to get a job?

Force her?

How on God's green earth?
Koala 1 | 332
23 May 2011 #14
LOL how I would know? I don't even know her.
Midas 1 | 571
23 May 2011 #15
Well, we know that she calls divorce lawyers the moment he says something she doesn't like.

Strikes me rather as a difficult type to reason with.
OP Kurt 2 | 29
23 May 2011 #16
@ Midas :-) quality..

to be honest i dont know what the deal is with this... because i get compared to her friends husbands but most of them live in shared accomodation or both of them works.. i was told that as a man its my responsibilitie to pay for everything and on top of that i should also give her spending money each month.. i have never heard of such a load of crap. are other Polish men really doing that.. and I am definately not the kind of person that says oh this is a womans job etc...

This wife does not cook 4 yrs of marriage cooked 15% i cook everyday prior to self employment i had to come home from work at 7 take something out the freezer and cook dinner. she cant because she was looking after our child.. she cleans though i cant take that away from her she cleans good :-)

Its crazy...
Midas 1 | 571
23 May 2011 #17
Please familiarize Yourself with the term "Polish Princess".

You really should, after all, You're living with one under the same roof.

Anyway, my opinion is that You shouldn't, under any circumstances, move to Poland with her. You'll suffer financially ( most likely ), You'll have little or no support network in case Your wife goes for that divorce and being a non-Polish male in a Polish family court is pretty much an equivalent of walking into a jail cell full of African-American gang members while wearing a white Ku Klux Klan suit and singing a country song.

Your choice though.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,719
23 May 2011 #18
Its crazy...

And you think moving to Poland is a good idea?

First things first, go and talk to the UK Border Agency about making sure that she cannot remove the child from the UK without your permission. It might even be wise to get the child's passport revoked/invalidated while you're at it.
OP Kurt 2 | 29
23 May 2011 #19
You make me laugh Midas....

You are right though.
Midas 1 | 571
23 May 2011 #20
Kurt, some great advice from Delphiandomine.

I was being funny on purpose, sometimes humour is the best way to convey a message.
OP Kurt 2 | 29
23 May 2011 #21
how could i get a passport revoked?
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
23 May 2011 #22
she will leave with my child and i will never see her again. this same polish wife has not worked since we have been married and we live in a 4 bedroom house and i pay all the bills and food etc. but for her its still not enough.

Yep, another princess who 'feels' that being a woman grants her numerous privileges that you cannot have.

really want to make things work and thats why i decided to move to Poland but i know moving there with a wife that says she is not sure if she loves me///

From all you've stated, she is ready to ditch you and collect your money. Don't go to Poland. Fight it out where you are currently residing.

It's an amazing thing about "equality" isn't it? As much as women complain about it, they certainly don't want to surrender all the advantages they have in both law and custom. Women have no interest in surrendering the traditional bases of female power while simultaneously complaining about men.

My analysis of feminism is that women in general supported the ruse of "equality" that resulted in net gains for women (educational and economic opportunities, greater sexual freedom, easy divorce) but insisted that female privileges be retained ("chivalry", female child custody, male obligation in the form of child support and alimony, etc.). Females expanded their power base into the world of men without conceding any of their own power base, to men. Yet, so many 'white knights' prefer this inequality and become doormats. Their knee-jerk reaction is to protect women - instead of themselves.

Many men in the states have woken up to this and the marriage rate in the past 3 decades has been cut in half. That's why the frequently asked question by women is, "where are all the good men?"
OP Kurt 2 | 29
23 May 2011 #23
@ zimmy Well said mate,
Koala 1 | 332
23 May 2011 #24
So what are you going to do?
OP Kurt 2 | 29
23 May 2011 #25
@ Koala,

I am now pretty sure i am going to stay in London and file for a divorce here.
The first thing to do would to go and see a family solicitor to guide and advise me on the best course of action to take.

So i will go see someone on Wednesday, the crap is we are still living under the same roof-- at the moment i still get to spend everyday with my child so for that I am gratefull.

My wife just said she wants me to go to a solicitor to sign an agreement giving her rights to remove our child from UK.. which i am not prepaired to do.. i want to get out of living together but if i leave i will have to continue paying for this house and obviously any new property that i will let because she does not have any money to find something..

this is a ****** place to be at the moment.. i just want it to end so i can move on with my life and focus on whats most important to me, my relationship with daughter.
Midas 1 | 571
23 May 2011 #26
My wife just said she wants me to go to a solicitor to sign an agreement giving her rights to remove our child from UK..

ROTFL... Is she planning to ask for Your kidneys next?

You've been too good for her for way too long.

Lawyer up immediately.

Edit: And do follow up on Delphiandomines advice. Even if You don't sign over any rights she stil will be able to try to make a run for it.
OP Kurt 2 | 29
23 May 2011 #27
@ Midas....

Funny you mention kidneys.. she brought up a conversation on friday about a group of people kidnapping and taking kidneys so who knows hahahahaha
al111 13 | 89
23 May 2011 #28
My wife just said she wants me to go to a solicitor to sign an agreement giving her rights to remove our child from UK

jy in kak, boet. I'd say most of the advice you're getting on here is quite sincere, you seem like a descent bloke but you probably don't know what you're up against. Your lady has made up her mind and i'm sure you know where this is heading to. Take Delphiandomine's advice go to the UK Boarder Agency as well they will block her taking the child out of the UK. All the best and keep us informed..
OP Kurt 2 | 29
23 May 2011 #29
all111 LOL ja ek is diep in die kak LOL..
yes I will take everyones advice onboard. i have an appointment scheduled with a solicitor this week will definately let you cool peeps know how things go..
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
23 May 2011 #30
You might also investigate whether she has a boyfriend in Poland. Just a thought.........


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