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Poland's citizenship through grandmother in US


maybe_Polish
20 May 2018 #1
I'm an American citizen living in Poland. I'm trying to get my Polish citizenship.
My paternal grandmother was not married to my grandfather. This means that I can trace his Polish line through her.
My great grandfather, my grandmother's father, became naturalized as a US citizen in 1926. This isn't a problem, and I'm assuming the citizenship confirmation office is not questioning his Polish citizenship because of the military service rule.

My grandmother entered the US on her mother's Polish passport in 1927.
The office in Poland is requesting a document stating that my grandmother never applied for US citizenship.
The USCIS did reply to our request for a record search. Their letter says there are no records of my grandmother requesting citizenship or a certificate, however, they include as part of their standard letter that they consider her a citizen, and she was given citizenship at the time her father, my great grandfather, was naturalized.

Now, being female, I'm assuming she is not covered directly by the military service rule like her father. (Is this true?)
Did she lose her Polish citizenship when the US granted citizenship to her without her permission?
Would she be considered under her father's "protection," and if he kept his citizenship then she also kept hers?
Will Poland ignore the fact that the US considers her to be a citizen because she never requested it?
If I give the office a paper that says the US gave her citizenship will the office reject my citizenship even though it says she never applied?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
21 May 2018 #2
Did she lose her Polish citizenship when the US granted citizenship to her without her permission?

Yes. Polish law is black and white in this case - if she had US citizenship, she lost Polish citizenship. It doesn't matter how it was obtained.

The good news is that as an American that obviously wants to come and contribute to Poland, you can get permanent residency as a member of the Polish nation. That allows you to work and live here freely, though obviously doesn't allow you to live and work elsewhere in the EU.
Dirk diggler 10 | 5,009
21 May 2018 #3
Polish law is black and white in this case - if she had US citizenship, she lost Polish citizenship.

That's not true....

pl.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/dual-nationality

Polish citizens who became naturalized American citizens after January 8, 1951 do not lose their Polish citizenship under Polish law, unless they formally renounce Polish citizens who became naturalized American citizens after January 8, 1951 do not lose their Polish citizenship under Polish law, unless they formally renounce Polish citizenship with the consent of the Polish government.

There's hundreds of thousands if not millions of Poles living in the US that became naturalized US citizens. That does not mean you lose your Polish citizenship.

Polish law states that a Polish citizen cannot lose their citizenship unless they renounce it.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
21 May 2018 #4
Yeah, but in her case, she got it in 1926 according to the USCIS, right? She would have fallen under the 1920 law, so she would have lost the citizenship then.
Dirk diggler 10 | 5,009
21 May 2018 #5
she got it in 1926

Ah in that case yeah...'

Although OP should still be able to obtain PL citizenship through ancestry.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
21 May 2018 #6
From what I know, it's hit or miss with that route. They demand the unbroken line, so if the USCIS says they consider her a citizen from x point, it's unlikely he'll get it. He can get permanent residency though, which is more than enough to travel around with.

To be honest though, I think citizenship should only be given to people who stay in Poland for 2-3 years first. It's one thing being the child of Polish immigrants, but another thing if your only connection is through a great-grandfather.
Pan T. K.
21 May 2018 #7
The case turns on whether or not the great-grandfather had completed his military service to Poland, or had been excused therefrom, when he acquired U.S. citizenship. Otherwise he could not have lost Polish citizenship when he acquired U.S. citizenship. (See the "military paradox" rule in the last sentence of Art. 11 of the 1920 Polish Citizenship law.) Since the great-grandfather did not lose Polish citizenship, no such loss of Polish citizenship could be extended to his daughter under Art. 13:

en.yourpoland.pl/userfiles/pdfs/polish-citizenship-act-1920.pdf

The OP should disregard the disinformation from the usual suspects who were not born Polish citizens, nor filed for such a decision. However, it should be well understood that the bureaucracy has been quite hostile to recognizing the rights of those living abroad who remained loyal to the Second Polish Republic during and after WWII. The claim could take a long time to be decided. Hiring a good Polish lawyer who specializes in these matters is advised, rather than relying solely on the opinion of Internet experts.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
21 May 2018 #8
However, it should be well understood that the bureaucracy has been quite hostile to recognizing the rights of those living abroad

Understandably so, given the large amount of attempts at falsifying documents by Americans trying to claim Polish citizenship through claiming that documents have been lost. For that reason, the Polish bureaucracy rightfully and carefully examines all applications made, and correctly denies citizenship to people who have no claim apart from a last name ending in "ski".
Dirk diggler 10 | 5,009
21 May 2018 #9
You have got to be kidding delph... Americans dont falsify documents to get polish citizenship lol. I've never heard of such a thing in poland or in the us. If anything poles bribed prl members to get a visa to leave for the us back in the day. An American has zero need to falsify documents to get polish citizenship as they can easily get residency even if they aren't polish. Plus if you have polish family its pretty easy to get citizenship theres no reason to lie or falsify things, it just takes a long time. In fact citizenship by descent is probably the easiest way to get pl citizenship
Pan T. K.
21 May 2018 #10
Americans dont falsify documents to get polish citizenship lol.

It has also been suggested that presumptions were changed and documents hidden in the archives to frustrate Jews, who fled during the chaos of the war, from claiming Polish citizenship or property rights. The forms for requesting documents from the archives request to know why records are being viewed. Either such things are public information, or they are not. Considering that they pertain to citizenship rights, greater accessibility, indexing and transparency is required as of right.
kaprys 3 | 2,286
21 May 2018 #11
With Polish citizenship, they may live anywhere in the EU do it's not surprising so many are discovering their Polish roots now.
What would be any other reason to claim citizenship of a country their ancestors left a hundred (or more) years ago?
mafketis 35 | 12,577
21 May 2018 #12
What would be any other reason to claim citizenship of a country

that they have no intention of ever actually living in? that's the giveaway.... rather than live in Poland and get citizenship that way they want to head straight to greener pastures, Poland is better off without them
Dirk diggler 10 | 5,009
21 May 2018 #13
@kaprys

The but for the citizenship by blood the chain must be unbroken. So if your grandma had pl citizenship but you dad didn't you couldn't get pl citizenship, atleast not through the polish blood method
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
21 May 2018 #14
Poland is better off without them

Absolutely. I don't have any problems with the first generation claiming it because they probably speak Polish at home and have contact with plenty of real Polish traditions, but what knowledge do these fourth generation types have of Poland? Zero.

There was this notorious drunkard going around Warsaw who would cry and whine to anyone that would listen about how Poland was denying him his birthright because he couldn't prove the unbroken line. It transpired that his ancestors had left long before 1920, and his only claim to Polishness was the name ending in "ski".
johnny reb 37 | 7,687
21 May 2018 #15
I don't have any problems with the first generation claiming it

Why should someone who is Scottish from Scotland have a problem with it at all as it is NONE of their business, NONE.
Someone with ancestry certainly has priority over an ex-pat through marriage riding the shirttail of a Polish person.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
21 May 2018 #16
Why should someone who is Scottish from Scotland have a say in it at all as it is NONE of their business, NONE.

Sorry, but as a Polish citizen, I have the right to vote on such matters. Jon too, for that matter. Both of us vote for parties that maintain the status quo, that is, keeping Polish citizenship out of the hands of people with no clear connection to Poland.

Someone with ancestry certainly has priority over an ex-pat through marriage riding the shirttail of a Polish person.

No such thing as "priority", nor is there any special treatment for obtaining Polish citizenship through marriage. Your ignorance about Poland is outstanding.
mafketis 35 | 12,577
21 May 2018 #17
, but what knowledge do these fourth generation types have of Poland? Zero.

To be clear, I'm completely fine with people with extremely distant Polish ancestory moving to and living and working in Poland (and learning the language and how things work) in order to get citizenship, but just wanting a passport/ticket to Western Europe? No.... they can go chase a cat.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
21 May 2018 #18
They actually make it quite easy, as they pretty much grant permanent residency instantly to anyone that can prove even a distant link to the "Polish Nation". Of course, to get citizenship, they need to learn the language, which would soon weed out those looking for an easy path into Berlin or Barcelona.
OP maybe_Polish
22 May 2018 #19
I just received some information. Okólnikiem nr 18 Ministra Spraw Wewnętrznych z dnia 9 lipca 1925 r. (obywatelstwo osób urodzonych i naturalizowanych w USA) I'm trying to find this document to see what it says. Anyone know how I would find this? Google isn't helping.

My lawyer is using this document to make his argument that grandma did not lose her citizenship. I'm not sure I understand the argument, but hopefully it will work. Fingers crossed. I hope this will be helpful to anyone else who comes across this thread.
Pan T. K.
23 May 2018 #20
The reference is to the Polish Interior Ministry's opinion/directive of July 9, 1925 which recognizes that the children of Polish citizens living abroad did not lose Polish citizenship because they acquired another citizenship at birth from another parent or from the place they were born. It shouldn't apply to your grandmother if she was born in Poland, but brought to North America as a child. It does apply to her children. See link here for an English translation of the directive- on polish citizenship law site.

Anyone considering do this should see the need to get a good Polish lawyer since it is necessary to reference all of the relevant statutory and administrative law supporting the citizenship petition. Don't consider doing this without one if the claim goes back the Second Republic.


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